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  #21  
Old 04-30-2009, 03:33 PM
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River River is offline
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Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2009, 03:35 PM
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SONG

by Allan Ginsberg

The weight of the world
is love.
Under the burden
of solitude,
under the burden
of dissatisfaction

the weight,
the weight we carry
is love.

Who can deny?
In dreams
it touches
the body,
in thought
constructs
a miracle,
in imagination
anguishes
till born
in human--
looks out of the heart
burning with purity--
for the burden of life
is love,

but we carry the weight
wearily,
and so must rest
in the arms of love
at last,
must rest in the arms
of love.

No rest
without love,
no sleep
without dreams
of love--
be mad or chill
obsessed with angels
or machines,
the final wish
is love
--cannot be bitter,
cannot deny,
cannot withhold
if denied:

the weight is too heavy

--must give
for no return
as thought
is given
in solitude
in all the excellence
of its excess.

The warm bodies
shine together
in the darkness,
the hand moves
to the center
of the flesh,
the skin trembles
in happiness
and the soul comes
joyful to the eye--

yes, yes,
that's what
I wanted,
I always wanted,
I always wanted,
to return
to the body
where I was born.
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2009, 05:19 AM
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smilnlol smilnlol is offline
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I want to tell all of you how much I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.

I am sticking my toes into the water. I have no idea where this is going for me.
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2009, 04:45 PM
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Lemondrop Lemondrop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiverMartin View Post
Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>
This is the concept that I'm having trouble with. I feel like I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite to where I get the whole concept. Bear with me, I'm just on the edge of understanding but can't quite get over.

Coming from a monogamous mindset, sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship. Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us. Have you ever been hurt that a friend shared something special that was supposed to be between the two of you with someone else? Even something as small as a trip to the mall? Well, let's establish that I have. How then am I to reconcile the fact that this one act, this thing that I share only with someone I love and have no desire to share with anyone that I do not have deep, committed feelings for, how do I accept that he shares it with someone else? I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2009, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.
Or (3), you just experience things differently from him in this area. I think you are under no obligation to feel something other than you do feel. What makes someone basically polyamorous is that they can say and mean: "I can love/be loved by more than one person to the same extent that I can love/be loved by just one person", and/or "I can love/feel loved by someone who doesn't love only me, to the same extent that I can if s/he does love only me".

I've no way of telling this for certain, but my intuition is that some people move around in this spectrum - between monamory (I hate the word monogamy!) and polyamory - and some people are where they are on that spectrum and are not going to shift; kind of similar to sexual orientation.

It may be that you are not open to being in a polyamorous relationship out of fear, insecurity, or conditioning (or that you are not open to this particular polyamorous relationship, because of who is involved) - but it may also just be that you're a one-person person. It's not easy to tell, any more than it's easy to tell what your sexual orientation is whilst under internal/external pressure to be this or that (with moral judgements swiftly on the heels of this or that).

Take your time, and be prepared to want something different from what your partner wants - that's the nature of being you rather than them .
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:01 PM
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" ... sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship."

It's really interesting to be where I am about these things at the moment and look back at how I was when I was with my first lover, a man I was partnered with for about 5 years. I was much more conventional and mainstream in my thinking and feeling about love/sex then, and "monamorous" (thanks, Yoxi). I was exploratory and innovative in other realms, but took my love-style right off the mainstream shelf (well, aside from the fact that it was a same-sex union).

Then, I would have been devastated if my lover, M, even wanted to love another man (he wasn't attracted to women in this way) as well as me "romantically" or in the love+sex fashion. I look back at that and think, Man, was I insecure!

Fast forward to the present. I've been with Kevin for 12 years now. We're both polyamorous in spirit, though neither of us has another lover besides. We're very communicative with each other about our attraction to other guys/gals, and neither of us believes our opening to love another will in any way diminish the love we have for one another. If anything, it will probably enhance our love-life -- as we each have need for kinds of connection we can't have with each other due to our differences (e.g., I'm a high verbal person and Kevin is not; he can't make art-of-conversation as I'd like to have with an intimate.) ... [I don't make him bad or wrong for being a low-verbal type, for he offers so much that I do want and need -- including solid, stable love and companionship in outdoor recreation activities we both love.]

In my youth, I automatically assimilated from my culture -- without critical reflection! -- (tv, movies, radio, love songs...) that the need or longing to share love+sex ("romantic love") equalled, among other things, anxiety that my beloved might pursue a love+sex attraction toward someone else. Of course, in those days, that meant abandoning me--for as the song goes "loving both of you is breaking all the rules".

(I've been in lifelong recovery from abandonment trauma!, so abandonment equals death, or worse, somewhere in my psyche.)

[Advertisement: "Try New Amazing Abandon Mints brand wild abandon stimulators!, guaranteed to freshen your breath and catalyze ecstatic naked dancing in public places!"]

Okay, back to the fast forward: I have roughly zero fear of abandonment in my relationship with Kevin at this time, especially abandonment resulting from his falling in love with another -- I'd honestly delight and rejoice in and welcome his having another lover (provided they practice great caution as not to pass along any STDs--or STIs for the brits here)! How exciting it would be for our family to take branches! I guess I feel so secure in this relationship, and in my psycho-spiritual path/evolution, that expansive experimentation and risk-taking makes me feel alive, rather than threatened. Also, as much as I love Kevin, I know I can live and be happy without him. Taking risks is different in such an atmosphere. I'm not motivated much by fear in intimate relationships any more. I'm motivated by growing in love, joy, freedom, peace.... I'm willing to risk EVERYTHING to keep such growth going, and polyamory does that for me/us. Also, it's exciting! It's adventurous! Even though I have a solid love relationship, I can have the adventure of being open to another! and I won't be abandoned by my lover if I do.

(It nearly happened last spring/summer, and Kevin watched as "R" and I engaged in a lot of snuggling and deep kissing. He didn't abandon me or rage at me for loving this other man -- but he also didn't talk about his feelings with me much, as he is that low-verbal sort I mentioned.)


"Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us."

Other than a desire to have such a bond be exclusive, you and I are precisely on the same page, here. I feel all of that in snuggling and in sex, and wouln't give it up for anything -- certainly not in exchange for "casual sex" (which I don't do). I CAN share love of this sort with two or three people. Probably not more than three, as it would get too complicated, I think.

In any case, if Kevin were to find another lover, I'd not feel that he was giving that other something which was properly mine, exclusively, and I would not fear that it would diminish the love he has for me. Odds are, it would help him open to further love, generally, and I'd get to enjoy basking in that warmth! I hope he does find/meet another!

Last edited by River; 05-01-2009 at 07:04 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:43 PM
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smilnlol, I've realised that what concerns me about your story is not about polyamory, it's about choice.

What I feel is that if you choose to do what someone else wants out of fear of losing them, that's not really a choice - and you might that way lose something else very precious, that's uniquely your own.

Maybe I'm just projecting my 'stuff' onto you - I married someone because they wanted me to, knowing deep down that I was doing it out of fear - and in the end, I had to wake up and take back to me what I'd given away, and it was more painful for both of us by then.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2009, 04:01 PM
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Thank you, Yoxi and JRiverMartin, for taking the time and patience to deal with my questions. I'm not sure I quite understand, but I'm very motivated and I'm trying.

smilnlol, I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread, but I did think that my questions might be related to some you might have.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2009, 01:57 AM
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i love that you pointed out to lemondrop that she might be experiencing things differently yoxi. I explain it to monoPVCG that I have the same amount of love for him as I do for my husband. he just expanded my heart by allowing me to love him so much... kind of like the Grinch that stole Christmas. The more I love people and they allow me to show them love the more I have to give... my heart get bigger and bigger. I am more and more happy and feel as if I am spreading it outward and inviting it back. I have always been like that and when I haven't been I am depressed and feel vulnerable and grumpy. This is definitely the way for me.

As for Smilinlol I think that is really the bottom line... choice. Denying someone the choice and allowing choice to be denied to you is perhaps a recipe for disaster.

I'd love to know how both of you work it out smilinlol and lemondrop. Please come back and tell us some time? I think it so important to learn from one another and am so interested in how you manage.... of course part of it is that I have genuine concern for your well being also.
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2009, 02:10 AM
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Just so we are clear my Gorgeous Redpepper I don't have to understand everything about you to love you! And I love you madly!! I just have to accept the gift that you, being true to yourself, has given me...now I'm outa here..this place freaks me out LOL!

Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 05-03-2009 at 02:14 AM.
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