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  #21  
Old 02-23-2011, 01:27 AM
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Okay, now I've been misunderstood, haha. Sometimes communicating online is tough, sorry I didn't express myself well. RP, I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that, sorry for sounding like that. I just thought I could see how someone might take it that way. But now it's been revealed that Conchordian was using sarcasm and I am the idiot here! Whoops!

Anyway, Sohuman, I think anyone here can identify with the confusion and not wanting to hurt someone. Many can also identify with your hubs' anger. I think you both would benefit from deconstructing the jealousy and looking at what's beneath it. I am sure more folks will weigh in, too.
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  #22  
Old 02-23-2011, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Honesty is sexy
Ah if only trainwrecks were anywhere near as sexy...
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  #23  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:02 AM
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I didn't mean to derail the thread. I can see what you meant about debate. People are ready to jump on just about anything that smells even remotely like one. (Y'all should be ashamed! Yeah, you know who you are...)

Either way... I deleted anything that was inflamatory, trying to clean up the thread. Probably too late, but there you have it, I'm trying my best.

My initial introduction was just meant to warn people that I might lash out. My problem with polyamory is not a problem with polyamory per se, but a problem with my wife using it as an excuse for her lack of control over the past few years (6 to be exact, but who's counting, it's not a contest). I really think she's mistaken if she thinks you "are" poly the same way you "are" gay (In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)). I think she's a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made simply because she wanted to go fuck other people (and did).

It is not a "special, magical ability to love more than one person" that made her cheat and lie, all the while refusing me the same freedom (of having extra marital encounters/relationships). It is her immature need for external validation, and seemingly uncontrollable craving for NRE. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what makes someone "polyamorous".

So yes, there's anger, resentment, extreme intolerance for bullshit, accompanied by hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth. I've never been very tolerant of BS to start with, but the woman has a much higher than average IQ, she knows better. It is insulting to me that she thinks she's going to pull one over on me by using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.

I think we're ready, and about to make progress, but I can see how that conversation is going to be really laborious, and tinged with more empty arguments. I'm ready for it though.
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  #24  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:18 AM
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Just a quick thought for now Choncordian - when using sarcasm/humor it can help to use the smilies to the right of the text typing box... or to simply "put in quotes" or other punctuation marks ~sarcasm~ for us poor fools out here on trigger points

Just something i Have found very very helpful myself... I will add to the conversation itself later...
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  #25  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by conchordian View Post
(In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)).
I don't believe that it is a magical ability, I think it's everyone who has the ability, but poly people take the perspective that actually pursuing and exploring other connections does not necessarily mean there is something wrong with an existing relationship.

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Originally Posted by conchordian View Post
...using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.
BS-ing is what I have only very recently stopped doing. It has only been a few weeks that I haven't sought to rationalize past or current bad behavior.

Part of my seeking NRE comes from a good place, from a belief that romance (both new and old) and sex with emotional connection can be happy, even divinely fulfilling experiences that our bodies, minds, and very souls are designed to enjoy. The dark side of my seeking NRE is a significant insecurity about my worth, and desire for constant enthusiastic validation. I have consistently chosen to have affairs with men who were far less empirically attractive than me or quite overweight or older, who I was not attracted to physically at all, in order to create a dynamic where they are in constant disbelief and drooling babbling admiration of me clothed or not. Blown-away verbal confirmation of my physical attractiveness equaled worth as an individual in my mind. Sometimes you just don't get that intensity from someone who's just as attractive as you are.... Looking at and understanding this dynamic as it relates to my marriage is a recent thing for me too. I liked the part of Ethical Slut where they're talking about the fact that people don't actually love each other for their perfect tits or whatever, anything pleasing is a happy icing on the cake & what they love you for is who you are.

Knowing myself a little better - specifically that I will need to create an emotional connection with anyone I am sexually involved with - would have helped me with that swinger situation. However, I looked back at my first message to them and I stated all of that, seriously, it is all laid out in one paragraph of my message... either he skimmed it or did not read it at all, and I don't think she ever read it. Also their original ad didn't say what they were within nonmonogamy. There were mistakes on their end that could have happened even if my husband and I had been poly from the start. Not all of our difficulties encountered with others in these early few weeks of honesty are 100% to do with us, but I see the value in holding off a bit.

I have two quotes from Flight of the Conchords that are relevant (fyi both my husband and I openly identify as bi-conchordians in that we like Bret and Jemaine equally):

Jemaine: I can see why you broke up with her. She was hard work.
Bret: Oh no, she broke up with me.
Jemaine: Yeah, she broke up with me too. That's what I mean, it was hard work staying together with her wanting to break up all the time.


Jemaine: It's just that I think she might be the one.
Bret: Sally?
Jemaine: Yeah.
Bret: What makes you think that?
Jemaine: You just know. When it happens to you, you'll know.
Bret: You said Michelle was the one.
Jemaine: Yeah, she's the one.
Bret: You said Claire was the one.
Jemaine: Yeah, she's another one.
Bret: So you get more than one one?
Jemaine: Some people are lucky. I've had a few ones.
Bret: So how many ones can you have?
Jemaine: Five.
Bret: How many have you had?
Jemaine: Three. How many have you had?
Bret: Just one. Just one.

Last edited by sohuman; 02-23-2011 at 03:57 AM.
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  #26  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:26 AM
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When a relationship is in trouble (cheating and lying being an obvious symptom of that), the answer is not to "add people." Pursuing polyamory won't fix the hurt and disillusionment caused by betrayal and dishonesty. You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers. Sohuman, yes, look at building your self-esteem, not using low self-esteem as an excuse for reckless behavior, while you also take responsibility for what you did.

BTW, polyamory isn't really a lifestyle. All sorts of people in all sorts of lifestyles can be polyamorous.
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Last edited by nycindie; 02-23-2011 at 02:28 AM.
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sohuman View Post

I have two quotes from Flight of the Conchords that are relevant [/B]
Nice !
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  #28  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
When a relationship is in trouble (cheating and lying being an obvious symptom of that), the answer is not to "add people." Pursuing polyamory won't fix the hurt and disillusionment caused by betrayal and dishonesty. You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers. Sohuman, yes, look at building your self-esteem, not using low self-esteem as an excuse for reckless behavior, while you also take responsibility for what you did.

BTW, polyamory isn't really a lifestyle. All sorts of people in all sorts of lifestyles can be polyamorous.
Yep - but we are having some really productive conversations on our own now; if we reach a point where we aren't communicating as well we will find a poly-friendly professional.

We are both really good for each other and are not going to consider not being together, it would disrupt our progress and our toddler's living situation unnecessarily. We help alleviate each other's stress by cooperating on taking care of things, and by always taking care of each other and our child when any of us gets sick - which is all the time because her daycare is a germ incubation center. Also I want our child to see us expressing our regard for each other through affection, laughter, and calm respectful communication about issues that we are actively working through together, important ones, not just who left the seat up. We save the conversations that are likely to be less calm for after her bedtime so as not to scare her. I have already taught her to say what she is feeling when she is feeling it, and told her that she is capable, to a point, of choosing how she reacts to her emotions - especially anger and frustration. She has a book called "When I Feel Angry" that teaches about the dangers of hurting others in reaction to your anger and that you have a choice. Lastly, there is a surprising amount of boundary negotiation experience to be gained with a toddler, and maybe in helping each other with that we will get skills to do it with each other.

Point taken on the low self-esteem. Also I don't mean to try to speak for all poly people when I talk about my own beliefs about it.

You don't think he should pursue anything now, even if I'm ok with it? Will his resentment and anger toward me lead him to treat me or others badly? Cause I could see that, actually...

Last edited by sohuman; 02-23-2011 at 03:19 AM.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2011, 06:36 AM
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I don't think anyone should be pursuing anyone right now personally. It sounds like you have a whole whack of stuff to sort out. Your desire to fuck men you aren't attracted to would be a start... You seem to know why, so why not find better ways to gain self esteem and self worth rather than turning your family life upside down. Do you not owe that to your commitment and to your baby girl, who will eventually follow your lead in how to relate to men?

I get where you are coming from with the kind of poly you have been having. I too have been known to do stuff to raise my self worth in an unhealthy manner. Only to find it was more depleted. To me that wasn't poly because self love is the first thing to me in poly. Be your own primary... not look to others for that...

It doesn't take long on this forum to find threads where I have struggled with casual sex since then. Do a tag search on the topic and you will see in about two seconds my fight with it... I damaged myself by believing that the sex was just fun and meaningless when really I subconsciously took it very seriously. My body took it seriously. You can see in photos from now and then the difference in my confidence and self love... my over all happiness has completely changed.

It was Mono that brought this change about when we first met (my now live in boyfriend). I did the work, and continue to, but he pointed something out to me in myself that I had not known for a long time. This was something that PN (husband) was not aware of and had not noticed or was not telling me... that is that I am worth more to others when I am me first and not a body to fuck.

I gave myself away to men that did not respect me. They used my body as a place to stick their cock and didn't even know the beauty I am inside as a person... they got off and took a bit of my soul every time... until I gave myself away freely and didn't really care that much as long as I got attention and felt falsely beautiful until they orgasmed.

I saw a documentary a couple of weeks ago of a brothel in Nevada. In it the house Madame said at one point that when the girls give a piece of there soul away every time they are with a John they need time to get that back. It's important to know that you give yourself away and that you have to concentrate on getting that back... this is what I feel I have done.

Don't get me wrong, people can and do have sex without all this that I talk about. They are able to be pleased with the experience for themselves and don't do it for self worth. They do it for pleasure...

I take my relationships very slowly now and have sex for the right reasons... When there becomes an obvious reason that it will not work FOR ME in healing my soul, expanding my love for myself and therefore others, I just don't do it. If you read my blog you will see some of this journey. I have found men and women that LOVE me... really LOVE me,,, not just want to get off. I am very fortunate, for sure, but I have worked my ass off to get here. It is possible.

It sounds like your man loves you... he is asking that you stop and look at yourself and your life. Your life with him and in your family... I think you would be wise to do that... Maybe you don't think that you need relationship therapy, but I do think you could use some of your own therapy... to get to the bottom of this trend you seem to be having. it has been going on for a long time... that path is possibly deeply routed by now and a new one needs forging. That could mean some help will be needed.

I wouldn't suggest either of you go out and date/fuck other people for a good while until you both have sorted some stuff out. I would wonder what conchordian hopes to gain by going out and finding women... to get even? To show you what it feels like? To find some comfort from someone else? To prove his manliness? I don't know, but it sounds like he is willing to hold off moving forward in that department until things are better balanced and some deep issues addressed and sorted out... After all that, maybe look at negotiating boundaries and think about trying again... who knows, you might find a lack of interest by then.

Last thing, I had a toddler once. Actually I went through the same shit you are now when my boy was a toddler. It is partly hormonal and a life stage for some women. You are not alone in this. There are others that feel that they have had a kid at their tit (if you breast fed... for me it was 3 years!) for way too long and all anyone sees them as is a mum... no independence or time to be free to come and go like it once was. That really widdles away on self worth. Keeping that in mind and making some plans for your future might help focus you in a different direction so that you can find other ways to gain self worth in your body and mind. Worth a shot I think.

This seems to have gone on longer, so I don't know if this is valid. I would wonder what happened 6 years ago that started this path. Might be worth looking at too.

@conchordian- Note on sarcasm. It really doesn't work in text very well I find. Unless you know people really well that is... (tested and found to be true...the hard way). As you are all new here, perhaps waiting a bit and using other threads like the "how are you" thread in the fireplace forum, to be sarcastic on, might help us get to know you better in this way... right now it just comes off that you are an asshole and something tells me you aren't. thanks
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Last edited by redpepper; 02-23-2011 at 04:28 PM.
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  #30  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
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You don't think he should pursue anything now, even if I'm ok with it?
Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.

Here's a few questions to ask yourself:
Do you honestly think that the smart thing to do is run around and find couples and people to fuck and suck (and possibly fall in love with) while your marriage is broken, with your husband hurt and angry at your betrayal?

Do you think that confessing should just be enough? You've got a lot of work to do to fix the damage left over from lies and cheating.

Do you honestly think your husband's just got to get over it while you go and do whatever you want?

Why do you care more about some swinger who's lusting after you while your husband needs you? While you need to focus on looking inward? You make it all seem kind of amusing, but you're living in a fantasy world.
Marriage is work, relationship are work, and if you don't have a strong, stable foundation in a mutually respectful and loving marriage where you make taking care of each other your first priority, how do you think it's even possible for either of you to start moving outside of the marriage to have multiple relationships?

Where is the respect, not only for your husband and child, but for yourself?

Sure, you might think you can just admit what you did, talk a lot about it, "oh yes, I've done all that personal growth stuff already, la-dee-da," announce that you're now poly and come up with some hypothetical "boundaries" because you've read that that's what poly people do, and then go have lots of extramarital sex -- but what is that all about, really? You've said you want poly, and not swinging. From what you've posted here, you don't really seem ready for everything that poly demands for it to work to everyone's benefit, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm someone who is fine with casual sex, but I don't see how it will benefit you or your marriage right now.

All of the above said with "tough love," compassion, and the kind of cranky wagging of my finger at you that a 50-year old woman can get away with. People lie and cheat all the time. It doesn't make you a bad person, but it means you've got a lot of self-examining and repairing to do.

You want self-esteem, do esteemable things.
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Last edited by nycindie; 02-23-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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