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  #61  
Old 02-10-2011, 02:19 AM
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First-I have to say, I really appreciate the way you are blunt about your own shortcomings (as seen through the eyes of yourself). I think many of us could benefit from learning to be more open about our own shortcomings as percieved by ourselves about ourselves and as seen by others about ourselves.

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This is an ongoing internal debate for me and one I see no easy solution for.
Understood, that's part of why I think it's worthy of attention. I find myself struggling also with things that aren't as simple as "either or". Yet continuing to feel pressure from within myself and from others to accept either/or....

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I would be taking a risk for sure but if it is one that needs to be taken to ensure Redpepper's health I would entertain it.
I think this deserves great respect. It's my impression that both you and RP have a willingness to attempt to take risks of your own to attempt to ensure each other's well-being. I find this admirable. I also think it's worth looking at a few more times-the FACT that you two do that. It seems to me that the longevity of your relationship is based more upon you each having that willingness, than on the fact that you have found common ground.... that sounds wrong....
I think you find a "more suitable" common ground together because of both of you being willing to make this effort... whereas if one or the other or both of you were unwilling-you would not find those odd "common-er grounds" and be unable to sustain a relationship with one another....

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The only other option I see is to reshape our relationship similar to the one she has with her ex-wife....but I don't want that.
Nor does she correct?

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I have to protect my own emotional health as well though and our needs seem to cause damage to each other if fully embraced. Imagine if I said "I need you to be monogamous..as in one partner? We'd be fucked for sure...no if, ands, or buts.
Yes, likewise if she said she needed you to be polyamorous as in having other partners, you'd be fucked for sure as well. no if, ands, or butts...
SO-here we are again facing the-
it's not as easy as either/or...
So is it that so many of us are blinded to what all is between the either and the or.... or are we refusing to turn and see it... or does it really not exist...

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When I say I would need to consider myself secondary it definitely does not imply Redpepper becomes secondary...there is no secondary in a monos heart...only primary.
I've come to understand that (mostly through talking with you actually. But, I think that this is a difficult concept for some people and so they percieve a meaning that isn't there when their mono partner asks to pull back to a secondary position... does that make sense?
I know for me-that's what happened. My perception of what his actions meant, and his intended meaning-were NOT anywhere close to being on par with each other.

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What it does do is creates a sense that the relationship is more casual than committed which in turn lowers the need to have love returned in the same way it is given - with exclusivity.
This also was part of my issue. I didn't want to be seen as "casual" to GG. He's not a casual partner to me and I've HAD casual partners since he entered my life. I don't want others to percieve him as that nor do I want people to see me as that in his life.
Of course I had to accept that others will see each of us anyway they damn well please. But it helped a lot when he was able to explain that he didn't see me as casual.. but that's another topic.

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It's a distortion of reality that does in fact indicate an inability to deal with reality. Yes...I said I would not be truly dealing with reality. Think medicated if you will...but if medication gets you through the day then so be it.
So-on that note-is it ok with you to know that you aren't facing reality (not "right now-I mean at all)? Because my perception of you is that, much like me, you are constantly seeking a better understanding of yourself and acceptance of yourself as well as having a strict desire to see and understand reality.
If this is correct, then that compromise will ultimately fail. It may work for a short time, but eventually your mind will overpower the decision and demand that you face the reality for your own sense of sanity. At that point-who the hell knows what will happen....
Do you see that as a risk? I know it would be for me. Cause I've done it... too often I fear. ;(


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As long as you are healthy in accepting that un-reality and everyone is more happy then sad I see this as possible.
At least theoretically true, but I know I wouldn't be healthy accepting an un-reality.... I'd get tweaked about what reality was. Start playing mind tricks and games on myself and screw up my sense of self...

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Do I think this is perfect? Not a chance, but what really is?
Nothing. Nothing is perfect. That's why we struggle on yes?

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Lots of people have no little or no interaction with metamours and aren't required to. Why would this be any different?
My gut reaction is because you are avoiding it in order to pretend it's not there... I could be wrong. It's one thing to accept something and simply not encounter it much. I adore Maca's ....whatever she is at this point. She's amazing. I rarely see or talk to her, but only because time and circumstance don't allow for it, not out of a need to avoid.

SHIT.I gotta run to the store.
I'll try to finish later.

XOXOXOOXOXO
to you all!
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  #62  
Old 02-10-2011, 02:52 AM
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Mono, I can understand you getting a little defensive on your own thread . I identify with a lot of what you say although your situation is much much different and you have been in poly much longer.
It is certainly OK to be afraid of change mate. Fuck I was afraid many times during the last 6 months, things are great now but I am sure that sometime in the future I might get afraid again, who knows? I don't know how I will react.
I hope I will do myself credit, but someone else will always judge that I let the side down.
To some poly's, we will always be limited people, emotionally incomplete or stunted or something, because WE DON'T SEE RELATIONSHIPS AS THEY DO.
That is just how it is.
Are we the selfish ones, or are they selfish? We are all people. I try to switch it round in my mind sometimes, to see if I have a dormant poly gene or something. WHY do I not want another woman? I can answer this easily, it is because I would find no joy in chasing or keeping or flirting or sexing with anybody while my beloved was still in the world.
Anyway just wanted to give you a little public support. You have my respect my friend.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
One day I might ask him to be uncomfortable because I need to decide that I can not live with the compromise of not being able to express myself in a healthy way.
Question: If you were to have a partner uncomfortable with public displays of affection, would you insist on being able to show as much affection in public to him as to other partners who are completely comfortable with PDA?
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  #64  
Old 02-10-2011, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

Nor does she correct?
Correct you are


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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I've come to understand that (mostly through talking with you actually. But, I think that this is a difficult concept for some people and so they percieve a meaning that isn't there when their mono partner asks to pull back to a secondary position... does that make sense?
I can totally understand that. I guess it is like the way a partner can respond to their loved one asking to have another lover. Both can be fueled by the unknown fear of what will happen and how things will change.


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So-on that note-is it ok with you to know that you aren't facing reality (not "right now-I mean at all)? Because my perception of you is that, much like me, you are constantly seeking a better understanding of yourself and acceptance of yourself as well as having a strict desire to see and understand reality.
If this is correct, then that compromise will ultimately fail. It may work for a short time, but eventually your mind will overpower the decision and demand that you face the reality for your own sense of sanity. At that point-who the hell knows what will happen....
Do you see that as a risk? I know it would be for me. Cause I've done it... too often I fear. ;(
You are right. This would be about coping with reality rather then embracing it. To say that I can cope is one thing..to think that I would truly embrace Redpepper being open to other men is a completely different thing. I will be sacrificing part of my happiness to see her achieve more of her own. But most relationships of any type involve this. The risk is...could it be sustained? If I look at this as an ongoing thing in my life..having a partner that is open to relationships when they develop however they do...no, I don't see it being sustainable but I don't know for sure...and so we would have to risk that possibility to find out.

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My gut reaction is because you are avoiding it in order to pretend it's not there... I could be wrong. It's one thing to accept something and simply not encounter it much. I adore Maca's ....whatever she is at this point. She's amazing. I rarely see or talk to her, but only because time and circumstance don't allow for it, not out of a need to avoid.
I would definitely be pretending it doesn't exist to an extent....or at least trying not to think about it. I fully aknowledge this goes against much of what we all see as healthy. But it may need to be tested to be able for all of us to live the way we want.
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  #65  
Old 02-10-2011, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Question: If you were to have a partner uncomfortable with public displays of affection, would you insist on being able to show as much affection in public to him as to other partners who are completely comfortable with PDA?
EXCELLENT question. I don't know who you were posing it to. But it's a great question. My answer would be no. I have two partners who have differing comfort zones in regards to PDA, and I exhibit PDA with them based on what is comfortable for each individually.

[QUOTE=MonoVCPHG;65630]
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By thinking of myself as secondary or casual, this also helps overide the natural desire to want exclusivity.
I understand this as well. I used to use that same mechanism. When I was just "playing around" it helped me to think of myself as casual because then I didn't feel the need to have them be anything but casual.
However, this didn't work for me if I fell in love with someone. Once I love someone, it's not exclusivity that I crave, but I do need to know that there is a joint commitment. I think I could go on hours into this one.. but not today.

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Let's look at the idea of being primary for me....it isn't possible. Redpepper has a husband. I see marriage as sacred and that creates primacy in my mind.
Yes, Maca and GG are the same way. They see marriage as creating primacy-for differing reasons, but yes, I understand.

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I don't envy that..I support it because their relationship allows me to embrace the nature of her other relationships with Derby and the one she has with Leo. If I was her primary I don't know that I would be so comfortable...
I think this is a key difference. I think that possibly it's one that some people miss in their rush to understand you as things are now and one that other people get stuck on because they want things to fit together a specific way always.
I've always thought (privately) that if you were the husband, there would be a nightmare mess because based upon your own statements, you wouldn't be able to handle RP's polynature...
It's somewhat BECAUSE she is already married to another that you are able to make the leap...
This is of course just my perception and I'm certainly open to your thoughts on it.

It leaves me wondering-as the most successful "poly/mono" couple that many of us have encountered..... is the key in the fact that you aren't the primary partner? Not in some other ethereal thing that "we" are looking for?
Watching GG has made me wonder this as well. He's not my husband. Would he be so "ok" with me having other lovers if he were? I'm not so sure he would... I'm not so sure he wouldn't. I just don't know and there isn't a way to find out now is there?

So-from a scientific perspective one has to accept that it MIGHT be that the fact that he (and you) aren't the primary spouse is the reason why you can be mono and functionally maintain a relationship with a poly S.O.


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It's avoiding reality...plain and simple. I would need to be distant from thoughts as well as seeing it in action. Maybe that would soften over time but maybe that would lead to a loss of connection...you only know if you try.
Yes, that's true and then the question becomes not if you are willing to allow the try or not, but if the consequence if it goes awry is worth trying.... This is where I think RP has slammed against a wall. The potential negative risk isn't worth it to her... at least not for now.

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The sad thing is...Leo is truly someone I would trust with her heart.
I don't think that is the sad thing. That is a wonderful thing-it means she has good taste in men. The sad thing is that you are all hurting as you try to find a way around the myriad differences in your lovestyles.


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I would struggle with Leo and Redpepper continuing at their current level of intimacy and if it was pushed farther than undoubtedly my struggle would increase.
Yes, that's been very clear for a long time yes?

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How do I look into the eyes of my family/close friends and say I am ok with a relationship when they can see that I am hurting?
THIS makes perfect sense to me. It's one of the reasons I "come and go" from the board. I have a HARD TIME talking about my relationship to people, even online when it's "great" then it's "shitty" then it's "great" then its "shitty". I can't honestly back up "staying" when it's so obvious that it's causing misery all around...

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I'm invulnerable to the judgement people have about my girlfriend being married because I embrace their relationship...
Sure, that's simple. I can easily defend my relationships with a person for things OTHER people judge them for-as long as I'm sincerely ok with those things. But....

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I am not so tough with the idea of other men. Why? Because I don't embrace it. I would not be genuine in defending it.
I can't genuinely defend something I happen to think is bullshit as well....

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  #66  
Old 02-10-2011, 06:25 AM
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It leaves me wondering-as the most successful "poly/mono" couple that many of us have encountered..... is the key in the fact that you aren't the primary partner? Not in some other ethereal thing that "we" are looking for?
Watching GG has made me wonder this as well. He's not my husband. Would he be so "ok" with me having other lovers if he were? I'm not so sure he would... I'm not so sure he wouldn't. I just don't know and there isn't a way to find out now is there?

So-from a scientific perspective one has to accept that it MIGHT be that the fact that he (and you) aren't the primary spouse is the reason why you can be mono and functionally maintain a relationship with a poly S.O.

Real life experience here: I wasn't ok with my ex-wife exploring a relationship with a woman when I was married, although I tried and pushed it. If she had of mentioned wanting another man I would have left.
Speaking for myself...I wouldn't have married a poly woman as a mono. I believe being a secondary does in fact relate to my being healthy and happy as a part of Redpepper and her husband's life. When I had an affair with a married woman I encouraged her to work on her relationship with her husband and felt no jealousy towards their time together as well. They were married...I was the other man. Same feeling of compersion but it was laced with deceit and hurting him behind his back.

In short...my monopoly relationship relies on the healthy sustenance of her primary relationship with her husband.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:28 AM
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I believe that GG would be the same Mon. I wonder if this isn't something that more people might ought to contemplate for themselves.
If THEY were "the other girl" or the "other guy" would that change the way they reacted emotionally?

shrug.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:29 AM
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I believe that GG would be the same Mon. I wonder if this isn't something that more people might ought to contemplate for themselves.
If THEY were "the other girl" or the "other guy" would that change the way they reacted emotionally?

shrug.
Hard to say
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:32 AM
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Now there is another thought to consider.

This is something that I think gets forgotten about a lot. I know it does for me. What happens when we "agree" to something and then it doesn't work out?


Is it a lie to say that you've now realized you are unable to meet the terms of your previous agreement?

But-if I'd come back and said, "I can't agree to the boundaries we agreed to for marriage, I need to renegotiate."
Would that have been acceptable?

When is it acceptable to come back and say, "I'm sorry, but I can't live by this agreement."...........
I get what you are saying here I think and that is, instead of pushing the issue by just doing it, when do you come back and say "It's not working?" It's a weird thing to have to say when it is so wrapped up in emotion, connection and confusion on all sides.

When I spent time with Leo and we crossed the line I wasn't thinking about where the line was, but how I felt in terms of that line. I didn't think I had gone to far and was actually quite proud of myself and him for stopping when we did, rather than saying "fuck it." It wasn't until afterwards when Mono asked me some questions and I answered truthfully with my small tinge of pride that I plummeted into despair when I realized that I was SO WRONG.

When do you get to say, "um, I can't agree to those boundaries that I thought I could before crossing them...?" When? After you cross them. That is when. At least that is what I see. I think that there needs to be room for that and some lea way...

Not that I advocate everyone go out and take the boundaries they have mutually decided on down! Just saying that I don't see any other way to know unless you have done it, or really do know yourself that well. Does anyone know themselves that well?

One forgets when making boundaries that there are other people in play. Leo has his own thing going on. I intuitively feel him as I do others and rise to his need for closeness and delight in that as much as I do other people who are close in my life. I hadn't realized that I am so susceptible to that and so easily thrown off the course of my prearranged boundaries with others. Loosey goosey boundaries rather than rules really do work better for me. Having case specific boundaries work better... not all hard fast rules for everyone work for me.

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I am wondering-within yourself-what is your feeling on what makes a reasonable compromise-not necessarily in looking at this example (which Mono posed to start the thread)-but taking his same questions, using any example in your life?

It seems to me that you have already been struggling to find a compromise regarding Leo-not pertinent to Mono-regarding Leo's life choices, your life choices and the feelings you two share...
I'm wondering if you struggle with the same type of questions in that (and any other) decision as Mono brought up in this thread?
I'm not sure I understand the question here. I really want to as I think it might be helpful... could you try explaining a different way? thanks

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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Question: If you were to have a partner uncomfortable with public displays of affection, would you insist on being able to show as much affection in public to him as to other partners who are completely comfortable with PDA?
I'm not sure why you asked this... is it possible to get an explanation please?

If I had a partner that doesn't like public displays of affection I would do my best to oblige them in that. I wouldn't have an issue as it isn't a big deal to me either way, but I would ask if it was okay to touch them secretively or at certain times when we are together... such as a hug goodbye or a brief kiss.

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the question becomes not if you are willing to allow the try or not, but if the consequence if it goes awry is worth trying.... This is where I think RP has slammed against a wall. The potential negative risk isn't worth it to her... at least not for now.
No it isn't worth it for a variety of reasons...

Leo has a lot of mental health issues that I am not willing to take on dealing with for one thing. Also, I don't want to step on his wife's toes in terms of the time we spend together. He talks to me differently than her and she is jealous. They have been together a long time, they don't have much to say and he is often content to struggle with his mental health while she takes care of everything else. I offer him a chance to talk once a month about my life and what is going on for him. He thrives on it right now and it brings him out of some of his health issues. She has a love hate thing going on with that and I would rather step back a bit to allow that to resolve or not as the case may be... I have enough drama going on... Also, he tells her everything I say and bases a lot of his opinion, it seems, on what her opinion of me or what I say. While she likes me there is still a lot of stuff that she doesn't like about me and he challenges me on that as if he owns it... I am not big on that going on in my life thank you very much. I have called him on it, but he thinks she is all knowing and does what she does, so what can I do, but choose to engage or not, depending on the topic. Also I am not keen on some of his values in terms of child raising and family life. We are all equal around here and at their house a woman does her job and a man does his... I don't care that that is how they operate but when it crosses over to my world and he deals with my child in the same way I am infuriated with him. Lastly, he drinks a lot and I wonder if there isn't an addiction thing going on there.

These are all really good reasons for me to step back and at the very least consider him a tersiary in the future. I love and care for him, but in terms of "time" (as the label of tersiary is a consideration of time spent with someone) I am not willing to create more time for him in my life.

All of these are reasons that I would gladly not involve him in my life beyond where we are at now for the time being and just work on my own shit. Mono's struggling with this all is not entirely necessary at the moment, but I can see that it could possibly be the ground work for future struggles with Leo or someone else... its all good learning and all good for us. He might not think so, but I do
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:50 AM
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A workable compromise is one that actually works for all of those involved. If you need space from those two while they're together, then any working solution has to provide you with that space. You are responsible for making certain any solution works for you.

So, any proposed solutions that fail to keep you comfortable enough to stay engaged at the level you were are non-starters. It may, indeed, require that you be less engaged in group activities to stay comfortable.

Added: No solution can consist, in whole or part, of somebody saying to someone else, in effect "Well, you have to change for this to work."
This is so full of stuff AT! I agree a workable compromise has to include room in it for things like space away from the group. He suggests that he is not involved with the group any more as a way to gain that space. Unfortunately, Leo's wife and I are not interested in this scenario as we both cherish our family camp outs too much. Leo has told me that he will be in shit if she finds out that he has fucked up and we are not ever going to hang out all of us again. Not only would I be disappointing myself in agreeing to his compromise, but I will be left with guilt because it won't work for the wife or the others for that matter also.

Mono was smart to ask for this to be considered. I love him for it. It is a brave step that gives me hope. He is responsible to make sure that the solution works for him... as I said earlier though, sometimes boundaries/compromises can not be known to work unless they are pushed a little. What if he is suggesting something that will push way too far. Right now I am not willing to test that out, but I appreciate it as an option for the future just the same.

Neither of us have to change, but we do need to budge a little and grow and learn about ourselves over time I think. I have agreed to budge a lot in order to try some different things out first, in honour of learning about myself... we shall see how long that lasts...
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