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  #41  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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I talked to a guy at my work who was learning Hebrew so he could better read the Torah. There are a lot of languages differences in how people would say them back then in a different language and how they say them today. I remember a few examples:

1) The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is better interpreted as Tree of Knowledge of Everything from Good to Evil.
2) There is a story about the Messiah riding a dokney, even a colt. The idea was it was surprising that he would ride on a donkey.. and even moreso on a colt. Three of the gospels writers interpreted this correctly and said Jesus rode on one animal. However, Metthew seemed to have misread this and said that Jesus must have ridden two animals.
3) I heard a discussion about the nakedness in the garden of Eden story. The standard Christian view is that nudity was seen as sinful. One guy I heard who studied this said it was more likely that it was about humans understanding their status. Gods are nakes and animals are clothed in fur. Humans learned they were kind of in between.
4) There is also discussion of what "Son of Man" and "Son of God" mean. To a Hebrew back then, "Son of Man" would be a divine judge or Messiah (because he would appear after the Beasts) while "Don of God" just means someone doing Godly works. To a pagan back then, it would mean the opposite. So if a Jewish person said, "Jesus may have been the son of God, but he was not the son of man" then a pagan may have gotten the wrong impression.

Anyway, I do find it interesting how things look different when language and culture become involved.
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  #42  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:52 AM
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There is historical evidence that El was the supreme god of Babylon. The understanding was the YHWH was a son of El. El "gave" the land of Canaan to YHWH, to rule over the Israelites and Judaeans. Later, Babylon (the great empire that swallowed Israel and Judah for a while) was seen as evil and the ruling class of Judah, the Levites, wanted to distance themselves from El. So, instead of denying him (since he was too great) they conflated him with YHWH. Then the word el came to mean just "god." Also, YHWH was conflated with another god/dess, El Shaddai, commonly translated as God Almighty (but there is evidence shaddai could mean breasts, therefore, the Breasted God/dess).

Along the way, Asherah, a major goddess of Canaan, was seen as the consort of El, Ba'al and YHWH (hey, polyandry!). Later, she was called an abomination by the Levites responsible for writing down much of the Torah and Prophets. But her image stood in the pre-monotheistic Judaean temple for centuries.


Love that crazy mixed-up Levantine history!
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me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
my bf: Ginger, 61, married to:
Robin, 60 (mono)
and dating (NRE): Carla and David, married couple, early 40s
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  #43  
Old 08-25-2010, 11:12 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Well, witch is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word means evil sorceress and refer to poisonous potions apparently.
I'm not at all sure that the English word 'witch' is the wrong way to translate the Hebrew. I've heard this poisoning thing before, but I wonder where people get this idea from; there's nothing in the Hebrew about poison.
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  #44  
Old 08-26-2010, 12:59 AM
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I'm going by what Ive read Hebraic scholars have written on the subject. The threat of a sorceress was the harm she could do, as far as "potions," ie herbal concoctions. Healing or killing/harming was supposed to be the provenance of YHWH and his priests, not coming from others, especially women!
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
my bf: Ginger, 61, married to:
Robin, 60 (mono)
and dating (NRE): Carla and David, married couple, early 40s
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  #45  
Old 09-11-2010, 07:08 PM
Athena Athena is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
, commonly translated as God Almighty (but there is evidence shaddai could mean breasts, therefore, the Breasted God/dess).

Along the way, Asherah, a major goddess of Canaan, was seen as the consort of El, Ba'al and YHWH (hey, polyandry!). Later, she was called an abomination by the Levites responsible for writing down much of the Torah and Prophets. But her image stood in the pre-monotheistic Judaean temple for centuries.
Actually, El Shaddai could be tranlated as God of the Breast, however, culturally this really should be translated as God of the Mountain. There are many cultural parallels of thinking of a mountain as a breast, including the Grand Tetons.

There are a lot of pre-monotheistic, polytheistic remnants in Jewish religion, too many to get into fully here. For example the period when one counts the Omer may be related to weeping for the Tammuz, who is a god of the grain that dies when the grain is cut and resurrects when it springs up again to become a new crop, and has since been reinterpreted to be a time when a plague fell upon the people because they were quarelling with each other over foolish issues.

Every religion that has been around a while is going to have many layers to it, and I love every single layer of my religion!
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  #46  
Old 09-11-2010, 08:01 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I live the history of religion too, Athena. With my especial interest in goddess based religions, I really enjoyed The Hebrew Goddess and When God Was a Woman. Have you read either?

I get a kick out of one of the months of the Jewish calendar being named Tammuz. And when men are named Asher, after one of Jacob's sons, who was in turn, named for Asherah.

And the famous story of Esther (Ishtar) and Molokai (Marduk). Etc.

I know shaddai has also been translated as mountain. And breasts are metaphorical mountains.

We can agree, it shouldnt be literally translated Almighty.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
my bf: Ginger, 61, married to:
Robin, 60 (mono)
and dating (NRE): Carla and David, married couple, early 40s
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  #47  
Old 02-02-2011, 03:54 AM
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I'm something of a proud mama at the moment. My daughter who is quite conservatively christian is finally opening up more of a dialogue about polyamory (she even read and commented on my blog).

One point she makes that I do wonder about is this. She believes that the need to love more than one person is somehow about not being connected to god. She puts it alongside a number of other things that divert us from a spiritual path.

I think that there can be a spiritual aspect of most things we do and polyamory can be a spiritual experience. But I also wonder if the compromising of oneself in order to be with another e.g. as in a polymono relationship, can also be used as a spiritual experience in the same way as other sacrifices or hardships?
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  #48  
Old 02-02-2011, 06:00 AM
Fidelia Fidelia is offline
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Good for you, proud mama. And good for your daughter, to be open enough to learn about an idea many conservative Christians would shun as anathema.

One good book that explores the concept of multiple loves from a scriptural Christian viewpoint is Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition. It's a scholarly work writtten by a person raised in a conservative Christian environment who undertook a systematic examination of the Bible in the hopes of determining what it really says concerning a great many sexual matters. I found it to be very interesting and enlightening.
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  #49  
Old 02-02-2011, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
OK OK, i just ordered a used copy off of Amazon! Its by AJ Jacobs, an admitted OCD person whose last book was about reading the entire Encyclopedia Britannica. A literary geek! Sounds fun, the reviews say it's hilarious.




Well, witch is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word means evil sorceress and refer to poisonous potions apparently. Interestingly some say that phrase was from about 1400 BCE. Long-ass time ago! I doubt modern Jews fear evil sorceresses/poisoners today are that much of a threat. LOL

In my opinion, blended fibers is a metaphor for Yahweh (the Levites speaking for him) not wanting the Hebrews to enter into mixed marriages with other religious groups.



Or maybe the rules in the Bible were written by men, based on the Hammurabi code of Babylon, and not actually handed down by an invisible fire god on top of a volcano.

Genesis is all myth IMNSHO.


Yes, it's called the Talmud, which we are discussing in the Judaism thread here.
Thank you Magdlyn! I sincerely apologize it's been so long: i got a new machine here and lost my password to the forum.

Yes evil sorceresses sounds right. Those people were superstitious primitives, even if some were literate. OK, let me be pc here: pretty much all people were superstitious primitives back then. If I had lived then I would be too. I think superstitious primitivism is wonderful! Anybody pissed off?

Blended fibers and mixed marriage. New idea for me. Yep, that sounds right too.

OK, IMNSHO: uummmmmmmmmmm.......in my not so happy opinion?
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  #50  
Old 02-02-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catbird View Post
OK, IMNSHO: uummmmmmmmmmm.......in my not so happy opinion?
Not so humble!!!
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