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  #141  
Old 01-06-2011, 01:58 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
I didn't mention it because I felt it obvious this is exactly the point being put forward...

However ... WHAT NEONKAOS SAID... with bells on even
Ooh ooh the validation, it BURNS! I mean, it TICKLES.. whatever; you know what I mean. I am so delicate and fragile that I need people to tell me that I am right and it's ok.
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  #142  
Old 01-06-2011, 07:37 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
If someone has been offended by what you have said, then you were being offensive to that person.
This is your personal conclusion, which is an opinion not a fact.

What one person is offended by may not offend another person. To make the conclusion that the source (me or the statement) is at fault is placing blame on the source (me or my actions) for your personal reactions. I.E. "...you were being offensive.."

Quote:
It is not your responsibility to 'take the blame' for 'being offensive'. Acknowledging that perhaps what you said had caused someone to feel offended is different.
Yes Exactly. I agree. Therefore, I did not apologize for "being offensive."

To say, "I'm sorry for "being offensive." is to agree that I was being offensive. (And I don't agree or accept the perception that I was.)

But to say, "I am sorry you were offended by what I said." is to express a feeling of empathy or compassion. but it does not own the perception that I was being offensive.

Perhaps there are members who don't think I was being offensive. Perhaps others agree that I was. These are perceptions and opinions.

Quote:
And actually - looking back over all the posts... no-one actually asked you for an apology... that was your assumption.
True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person.

Quote:
You were 'taken to task' as it were for refusing to acknowledge that people HAD been offended, even though it had been pointed out - you refused to understand that they had been, or how.
Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.
People don't "refuse to understand" they either understand or they don't understand.

Quote:
Personally... you laughed that I found offense with a comment of yours I (and others) found sexist.
Yes I did. I seriously thought it was sarcasm, so I didn't take it seriously. (I think people are sometimes way too serious and sensitive about everything. Life is too short for so much drama in my opinion.)

Quote:
...Prior to which you had directed assumptions regarding my character and how I would direct my life following a question which was seeking other's personal opinions or experiences. After I found offense with the sexist comment you proceeded to call me 'delicate and fragile' because I stated that I was serious that I had found the comment offensive.
In your private responses to me you implied I was playing a game in order to get you to apologise. You also stated I was over-sensitive and dramatic.
Yes, but that is just my impression. Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place. You admit above that you were seeking other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and then you chose to find mine "offensive." If I had known you were going to be so easily offended I would not have said anything at all. I have no way of knowing what might offend anyone. I was just being myself, relaxed and and honest and I was found to be "offensive." My reaction is if you are going to seek other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and you want honesty, you might try not to be so quick to be offended.

Look for the meaning behind my words. Do you really think I was purposely trying to offend you? Why would I do that?

Quote:
All that and I still am not hurt, offended - yes. Expecting an apology - no. (Though I did accept the one you gave as you kept mentioning it and you refused to understand it wasn't an apology I was looking for) I was genuinely trying to understand how someone can have so little regard for what other people are saying... and so little care for how their own words affect the message they are sending.

From my perspective you simply do not care, either how you are perceived, or how you effect people.
If I did not care I would not have started this thread.

You told me you found it "offensive" because you did not want to "be understood just "because you were a woman" and that you want to be understood "because you are human."

( Personally I will take any kind of understanding I can get. )

I know a lot of people would like to think that masculine and feminine traits are equal and the same, but they are not. Perhaps humans will some day evolve to the point where all are both male and female physically and mentally, but we aren't there yet. Until then, we are divided and we can see differences between the masculine and the feminine traits regardless of the physical body.

I was speaking from my personal experience which has observed that the feminine side tends to be more sensitive to emotions and have more of a need to be understood. From my experience men (masculine) are less prone to want to talk about their feelings. Of course that is my experience and opinion which is what you wanted and it is a generalization, so what? I have seen a lot of people making generalizations on this forum.

I have heard we all have a masculine side and a feminine side. (And maybe more sides that we are aware of.) My feminine side desires to be perfectly understood, even though I know now that this is unlikely to happen. My masculine side really doesn't care that much. That's my personal experience.
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Last edited by Olderwoman; 01-06-2011 at 07:48 PM.
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  #143  
Old 01-06-2011, 07:50 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderwoman View Post
True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person.
Note to self: respond to what people actually say, not what you imagine they said.


Quote:
Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.
It was EXPLAINED to you, yet you "refused to believe" it? You're calling FlameKat a LIAR? That is pathological. Have you been diagnosed with sociopathy by any chance? I'm not kidding, I'm totally serious and don't think this is funny at all. You can LOL all you want about it.


Quote:
Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place.
So... that must mean you ARE "sorry".

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-06-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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  #144  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:10 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
I am deeply offended that no one has said anything about my example of apologizing without being sorry:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...&postcount=130

I assume if no one says anything, then no one disagrees with it; but please don't debate about it as though the example was never provided.

that is all.
I actually responded to that post but I hit an unknown button on my keyboard and it vanished.



I don't think you were "not sorry" I think you were sincere and you were expressing compassion for their feelings without assuming fault.

You may have been honestly sorry they were offended but you were not taking 'full' responsibility for it.

<My take on apologies>

Here are two good examples of these different kinds of apologies.

1. If a person's child was killed in a car accident unrelated to you:

"I'm so sorry for your loss!" <----You are sincere and are expressing sympathy and compassion.

The more deeply a person can understand and feel compassion for another person's loss or feelings, the more deeply and sincere the apology.

2. If you backed out of your driveway carelessly and killed someone's dog and felt responsible:

"I am so very sorry, It was all my fault, I should have been more careful." <---- you are sincere and expressing regret.

The more deeply a person feels regret, the more deeply and sincere the apology. We learn by our mistakes and when those mistakes cause us to change our life, they are good lessons.


</end>
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  #145  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:41 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
It was EXPLAINED to you, yet you "refused to believe" it? You're calling FlameKat a LIAR? That is pathological. Have you been diagnosed with sociopathy by any chance? I'm not kidding, I'm totally serious and don't think this is funny at all. You can LOL all you want about it.
NO, I am not calling her a liar. What I said was that I did not believe her. That was my personal reaction, and I did not assume she was lying either. She may certainly have been telling the truth but I withheld my conclusions regarding that. (To what extent she was offended is still unknown to me.)

It is not "pathological" to NOT believe everything anyone tells you.

Do you automatically believe everything anyone says? I am being honest when I say that I tend to withhold my judgement on things people say and games people might play. That does not mean I "am calling them a liar."


Quote:
So... that must mean you ARE "sorry".
Yes, I am certainly sorry I ever responded to her thread. I am sorry that I attempted to offer my opinion or experience. I am sorry she was offended. If I had it to do over I would not have posted anything in her thread....I would not have attempted to help her. I wish her the best.

Next time I will very likely just mind my own business.
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Last edited by Olderwoman; 01-06-2011 at 08:59 PM.
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  #146  
Old 01-06-2011, 09:27 PM
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FlameKat FlameKat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderwoman View Post
This is your personal conclusion, which is an opinion not a fact.

What one person is offended by may not offend another person. To make the conclusion that the source (me or the statement) is at fault is placing blame on the source (me or my actions) for your personal reactions. I.E. "...you were being offensive.."



Yes Exactly. I agree. Therefore, I did not apologize for "being offensive."

To say, "I'm sorry for "being offensive." is to agree that I was being offensive. (And I don't agree or accept the perception that I was.)

But to say, "I am sorry you were offended by what I said." is to express a feeling of empathy or compassion. but it does not own the perception that I was being offensive.

Perhaps there are members who don't think I was being offensive. Perhaps others agree that I was. These are perceptions and opinions.



True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person.



Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.
People don't "refuse to understand" they either understand or they don't understand.



Yes I did. I seriously thought it was sarcasm, so I didn't take it seriously. (I think people are sometimes way too serious and sensitive about everything. Life is too short for so much drama in my opinion.)



Yes, but that is just my impression. Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place. You admit above that you were seeking other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and then you chose to find mine "offensive." If I had known you were going to be so easily offended I would not have said anything at all. I have no way of knowing what might offend anyone. I was just being myself, relaxed and and honest and I was found to be "offensive." My reaction is if you are going to seek other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and you want honesty, you might try not to be so quick to be offended.

Look for the meaning behind my words. Do you really think I was purposely trying to offend you? Why would I do that?



If I did not care I would not have started this thread.

You told me you found it "offensive" because you did not want to "be understood just "because you were a woman" and that you want to be understood "because you are human."

( Personally I will take any kind of understanding I can get. )

I know a lot of people would like to think that masculine and feminine traits are equal and the same, but they are not. Perhaps humans will some day evolve to the point where all are both male and female physically and mentally, but we aren't there yet. Until then, we are divided and we can see differences between the masculine and the feminine traits regardless of the physical body.

I was speaking from my personal experience which has observed that the feminine side tends to be more sensitive to emotions and have more of a need to be understood. From my experience men (masculine) are less prone to want to talk about their feelings. Of course that is my experience and opinion which is what you wanted and it is a generalization, so what? I have seen a lot of people making generalizations on this forum.

I have heard we all have a masculine side and a feminine side. (And maybe more sides that we are aware of.) My feminine side desires to be perfectly understood, even though I know now that this is unlikely to happen. My masculine side really doesn't care that much. That's my personal experience.
I asked for personal opinion and expereiences on what price is too high to pay to keep their personal integrity - not their personal opinions of wheter or not they felt i may lie, be deceitful or other be delicat or fragile etc and so forth - you do not know me therefore can have no personal opinion or experience of me (other than this extremely long running misunderstanding)
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  #147  
Old 01-06-2011, 10:10 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
I asked for personal opinion and expereiences on what price is too high to pay to keep their personal integrity - not their personal opinions of wheter or not they felt i may lie, be deceitful or other be delicat or fragile etc and so forth - you do not know me therefore can have no personal opinion or experience of me (other than this extremely long running misunderstanding)
The subject about my not being sure if you were playing a game or being honest about "being offended" only came up a lot later in this conversation. It did not come up in my original post that allegedly offended you so much.

As this 'extremely long running misunderstanding' continues, I have decided that you don't really want me to be honest and up front with you. You would rather "refuse to understand" (as you have put it to me.)

Yes it is true that I do not know you. So why would I automatically believe everything you say? And how could I possibly know what might offend you? You don't want to cut me any slack at all, and I suspect it is because I don't play your game the way you expect me to.

< Below will be my 'masculine side' speaking and he doesn't much care about being understood or about what people think.>

You mentioned that I rub you the wrong way because I remind you of your EX, so this is not my battle and I am not going to continue engagement. All of my honest efforts to clear things up with you and accomplish some sort of communication and understanding just leads to more bull shit, so I am throwing in the towel. Whatever the problem is, its clearly a personal one. I have apologized, I have explained, and I have been honest. Now I am done.
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  #148  
Old 01-28-2011, 08:19 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
. . . a dick-zillion times . . .
Oh! I'm stealing that phrase! You truly have a way with words. Heh-heh.
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  #149  
Old 01-28-2011, 08:59 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Oh! I'm stealing that phrase! You truly have a way with words. Heh-heh.
Well "dick-zillion" sounded better than any of the slang words for "vagina".
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  #150  
Old 01-28-2011, 09:42 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I dunno, I think twat-zillion sounds pretty good.
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