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  #161  
Old 01-24-2011, 03:56 AM
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  #162  
Old 01-24-2011, 05:44 AM
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Psychology Today also has a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...ing-difference


A Devastating Difference

Jealousy exposes fear of loss; envy hinges on feeling inferior.
By Hara Estroff Marano, published on January 01, 1994 - last reviewed on July 16, 2009


Envy vs. Jealousy

Long lumped together by ordinary folks and scholars alike, envy and jealousy are not a single, formless "super emotion." On the contrary, they are distinct, with different components, and are in fact elicited by completely different situations and in completely different settings.

According to Georgetown University psychologist W. Gerrod Parrott, Ph.D., envy occurs when a person lacks another person's superior quality, achievement, or possession, and desires it—or wishes that the other person lacked it.

Jealousy, by contrast, occurs in the context of a close relationship when a person fears losing an important other to a rival—in particular, losing a relationship that is important to one's sense of self.

For all their distinctiveness, envy and jealousy sometimes occur together, Parrott reports in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Vol. 64, No. 4). For instance, when a romantic partner gives attention to an attractive rival, a person may feel both jealous of that attention and envious of the rival for being so attractive. And since jealousy involves the loss of a personal relationship, it's usually more intense than envy.

Here's how envy and jealousy stack up:
ENVY
  • Feelings of inferiority
  • Longing
  • Resentment of circumstances
  • Ill will towards envied person often accompanied by guilt about these feelings
  • Motivation to improve
  • Desire to possess the attractive rival's qualities
  • Disapproval of feelings
JEALOUSY
  • Fear of loss
  • Suspicion or anger about betrayal
  • Low self-esteem and sadness over loss
  • Uncertainty and loneliness
  • Fear of losing an important person to an attractive other
  • Distrust
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #163  
Old 01-24-2011, 05:55 AM
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Another article, about envy, from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy has a small section explaining the difference between jealousy and envy:
D'Arms, Justin, "Envy", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2009 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.),
URL = <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/s.../entries/envy/>.
"1.2 Envy vs. Jealousy

Ordinary language tends to conflate envy and jealousy. The philosophical consensus is that these are distinct emotions.[2] While it is linguistically acceptable to say that one is jealous upon hearing about another's vacation, say, it has been plausibly argued that one is feeling envy, if either, in such a case. Both envy and jealousy are three-place relations; but this superficial similarity conceals an important difference. Jealousy involves three parties, the subject, the rival, and the beloved; and the jealous person's real locus of concern is the beloved—the person whose affection he is losing or fears losing—not his rival. Whereas envy is a two party relation, with a third relatum that is a good (albeit a good that could be a particular person's affections); and the envious person's locus of concern is the rival. Hence, even if the good that the rival has is the affection of another person, there is a difference between envy and jealousy.[3] Roughly, for the jealous person the rival is fungible and the beloved is not fungible. So he would be equally bothered if the beloved were consorting with someone else, and would not be bothered if the rival were. Whereas in envy it is the other way around. Because envy is centrally focused on competition with the rival, the subject might well be equally bothered if the rival were consorting with a different (appealing) person, but would not be bothered if the ‘good’ had gone to someone else (with whom the subject was not in competition). Whatever the ordinary meaning of the terms ‘envy’ and ‘jealousy,’ these considerations demonstrate that these two distinct syndromes need to be distinguished."





Note: I had to look up the definition of fungible
fun·gi·ble ˈfʌndʒəbəl [fuhn-juh-buhl] –adjective (Law). (esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 01-24-2011 at 05:58 AM.
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  #164  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:08 AM
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And for further edification...

I found a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy at a site called differencebetween.net (interesting site, btw):

http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...ousy-and-envy/

Difference Between Jealousy and Envy

Categorized under Language

These two words are very similar and are listed as synonyms. Their time of derivation is close as well. Jealously has an origin of between 1175 and 1225. Envy has an origin stated to be between 1250–1300. Both are cited as being most recently derived from Middle English. The fact that envy seems to have originated after jealousy it seems to imply that it is the result of an attempt to further clarify or distinguish concepts. The differences between these two are a subtle one, which is true with nearly any synonyms. It does exist though in the overall usage and many of the specific definitions. There are a number of definitions though that overlaps. To begin let it be pointed out that envy is used as a noun and a verb, while jealously is only used as a noun and is a state of being that references the adjective jealous.

Jealousy is a state of being that is rather focused in what it refers to. In general the common uses refer to states of unease. In some definitions these are elevated to resentment and suspicion. It can refer to a general state or specifically a state of mind. Jealously in some instances may refer to simply a vigilance or commitment to maintaining or guarding a thing.

While jealousy often refers to a rival, envy is often focused toward the possessions and advantages of another. It may also include the idea of right. In general this is based on the individual being more deserving of the objects that the envy is focused on. For example the individual that is envious may consider themselves to be more deserving of the possessions of another. The verb form of envy can refer to an instance when an individual feels that way toward an object.

The most obvious difference of the two is that jealousy is generally focused toward an individual and specifically toward an individual that may be considered a rival. Envy instead focuses more on the object than the person that possesses it, though the envy may be based or accompanied by the assessment that the individual deserves what they envy.
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #165  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:06 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Hey Autumnal,

Some thoughts for and against.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
.........
Envy is wanting what somebody else has. It may or may not be driven by feelings of inadequacy or insecurity. Indeed, one can feel envy without ever feeling inadequate or insecure.
True. I agree. EXCEPT in the context of what we are talking about the envy you speak of that is low level ( envy over physical things etc) seldom cause the type of problems and drama that inadequacy does in relationships. Context is important. We're dealing with relationships here and the competitive factor that so many people can't seem to step aside from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I think that's a nonsensical notion. We can certainly lose what we expect to have available without ever having "won" anything. And it has nothing to do with feeling ownership of anybody.
Agree and disagree on this one. And it's misleading and could send some down a wrong path. CAN we technically lose a dream (expectation) ? I suppose one could say that, but I hold to the fact you can't 'lose' something you don't posses.
"Expectations" are a whole other ball of wax and deserve a whole discussion themself. They are their own demon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I expect my wife to hang around because she tells me she enjoys my company. I didn't "win" her company any more than I "won" the friendship of my best friend from high school.
Oh really ! Do you remember back to the first few dates? The 'pursuit' phase ? Or maybe your relationship didn't develop like that. Our's really didn't ....some don't. But for a majority they do. Somebody 'wins' -somebody usually loses. If you are the type that sees life as a competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I certainly don't feel I own either of the two.
Good ! I hope this is a true, accurate and LIVED statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
So the idea that fear of loss can only come from feeling we own somebody else just doesn't hold up to examination.
Again, I feel semantically incorrect, misleading. You can't 'lose' something you don't 'have'. Basic. But that's more a topic for the philosophy forum than here
C'mon over anytime - it's a fun place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I also find this nonsensical. Emotions are sometimes fleeting and vaporous, lasting but a moment. At other times they can burn in the hearth of someone's heart for ages. There's no guarantee of longevity of emotion. With that in mind, to say that a short-lived emotion never existed strikes me as a bit absurd.
Again, context, not generalities. We're talking about love and respect here. We're not going to 'lose' someone's love and respect if they were truly there in the first place except through our own actions. We can 'become' unrespectable through our actions and beliefs. People can change. Same, it seems, applies to love. But that seems even harder. Many people feel a form of love for people they have known intimately and would come to their aid if necessary. But they may just not like them anymore. Now THAT sounds non-sensical LOL But it is what it is.

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 01-24-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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  #166  
Old 02-11-2011, 08:04 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D
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  #167  
Old 02-11-2011, 08:18 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D
Wow that seems like an impossible question.

I feel no jealousy for my wife. In our relationship and our love I feel secure.

I felt jealousy with my gf near the end of our relationship. Because I felt insecure. I was not jealous before that. It was made worse by me trying to fist fight it into submission instead of just letting it happen and accepting it for what it was.

Jealousy for me is completely based on the environment I sit in. Well so far. I don't like absolutes, since... anything can change.
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  #168  
Old 02-11-2011, 09:06 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D
Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and thier parents affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity...thinking there will not be enough to go around and therefore trying to horde things.
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  #169  
Old 02-11-2011, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and thier parents affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity...thinking there will not be enough to go around and therefore trying to horde things.
this rang a bell in my mind (hasn't happened much lately - thanks Mono )

would it be fair to then, as parents, take responsibility for assuring (and reassuring) our children that there IS enough to go around.... and then when there isn't (i.e time/resources) that that is okay and alright and not something to be afraid of, that more will come?

with this thinking - it would also be our responsibility as the parent of our own inner child, to also reassure ourselves that we are okay, and alright and everything will be fine. To take action if it is necessary but to otherwise, let (whatever it is) it be?
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  #170  
Old 02-11-2011, 10:48 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I think jealousy is learned. In a culture that is more communal and not focused on a scarcity-abundance dichotomy, where competition is healthy and meant to be a learning tool, I believe jealousy may not exist at all.

There is also another thread where several articles about jealousy were cited and/or pasted. Maybe that one could be moved and combined here with this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5779
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 02-11-2011 at 11:56 PM.
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communication, compassion, compersion, emotions, envy, feelings, jealous, jealousy, monogamy, poly, polyamory, possessiveness, relationship dynamics, relationship structures, relationships, respect, self esteem, unconscious

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