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  #11  
Old 04-28-2009, 02:07 PM
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I spoke to my Lover, Redpepper, about commenting on things that I didnít experience for myself. I am uncomfortable in offering opinions as opposed to experiences.

I do have a related experience in this case. During a long but over marriage, my wife did express a possible love for a woman and, thinking only of the sexual aspect, I encouraged her to pursue it. They spent a night together and, although she said nothing happened (and I do trust her impeccably) that was a night I will never forget.

I had a somewhat different dynamic going into it as she expressed her love for me had become more like the love of a brother or child than a husband or lover. Regardless it was one of the most painful experiences of my life.

We reconnected for 11 more years before I screwed up and the marriage ended. It ended because I lost connection with her (and many other things) and did not have a connection with myself to fall back on for strength. I found that connection after my marriage dissolved. Without that connection I could not have met Redpepper and fell in love with her and develop a different love for her Husband as well.

I came into my incredible relationship with Redpepper knowing full well she could love more than one person. It was a polyamorous relationship from the start. That is the paramount difference which enables me to embrace others that are in her life currently and others that may/will be lucky enough to share her love in the future. Everyone she brings into her life is blessed.

Based on my memory of that experience with my ex wife, and putting myself back in that space, I can say I would rather she have left me before pursuing that. It hurt too much to think that someone I had a monogamous relationship with for eight years, (and thought I always would) could desire someone in that way. Honestly, if she had of wanted another man, this would not have been an issue...I would have left without hesitation or option. The sexual excitement of picturing my ex wife with another woman overwhelmed my young mind LOL! I would never have believed she wasn't living in denial and that would have been too much back then no matter how much I loved her; and at that time she was my world.

I fully expect this not to be a popular comment, but it is again, based on my experience. I am not here to say what others want to hear, but say what my heart and mind have felt.

Respect to everyone on this forum.

Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 04-28-2009 at 03:25 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2009, 01:03 AM
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Default absorbing your thoughts

Here are a few thoughts based on others comments:
So Quath and I have a healthy relationship. No really! This is a major reason Quath is "pushing" a bit harder these days. (This issue is causing some stress between us tho)
(JRiverMartin) "The first is having a solid enough loving relationship with good enough communication ..."( sorry I forget how to quote properly)
Why do we need other people if our relationship is healthy and satisfying? This made me question Quath's feelings about our relationship. Is he happy and satisfied? He says he is and I believe him yet the conflict it creates is hard to sort out.
My hubby has been "teaching" me about polyamory for about 6 yrs now. This isn't a case of new-idea-aphobia. I have really delve deep within myself to understand how I would handle this life style. I am not old but I am sure as hell not young. 39 : )
(JRiverMartin)"... is about subjecting our cultural conditioning and indoctrination...to self-honest rational inquiry."
This is so true but I have examined these annoying societal stereotypes already. I have read the Ethical Slut(ha) I have no preconceived notions about love and relationships. I just can't find a reason why he/we need this in our lives. Quath says he wants to have more love and intimacy in his life. I say you just want more sex (can I say sex?) He says no I want the relationship. My argument is if you want relationships go get more friends. lol Honestly, I think it is the perversion factor that propels Quath more than anything. It is not bad to want sex I just think it is intellectually dishonest to say it isn't 90% of polyamory. Not to offend anyone I also think that people in polyamorous relationships do love each other very deeply. I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor.

I don't think of love as a pie. I have two children that I love equally, therefore spreading my love around isn't a concept I have trouble with. I don't want to share my hubby even though I wish I could. I know how much he wants this in his life. It is hard not to give it to him. I don't want the responsibility of tell him no. I wouldn't want someone telling me how or how not to live my life. He is a grown man and should make his own decisions. Yes, he would have to deal with the consequences of his decisions (i.e. my feelings of loss and sadness) Ultimately, he needs to live his life and I will need to find away to adapt. He has had to adapt to the new puppy. lol

and I guess this life, opening myself to others, scares me. I hate dating : )

Thx,
Smil
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2009, 01:47 AM
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If I could figure out the "quote" function this would work better for sure..but here goes.

"I say you just want more sex (can I say sex?) He says no I want the relationship. My argument is if you want relationships go get more friends. lol Honestly, I think it is the perversion factor that propels Quath more than anything. It is not bad to want sex I just think it is intellectually dishonest to say it isn't 90% of polyamory. Not to offend anyone I also think that people in polyamorous relationships do love each other very deeply. I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor."

I agree with you and cannot shake the sense that this true in the majority of cases. Keep in mind that I am monogamous and my hard wiring is obviously different from a person hard wired for polyamory. That doesn't make it right or wrong, it just makes it my perception. I feel reality is based on individual preception therefore, this is my reality. Asking me to change that would be like asking me to suddenly accept that I am actually African American...I would have a hard time accepting that I am not Caucasian!

Let me re-iterate that I understand the ability to love more than one person intimately. My incredible relationship with Redpepper is based upon that. I just don't want you thinking you are alone in the basis of your thinking.

For what it is worth I have been trying to read the Ethical Slut for some time..I am a very capable reader but simply find it disturbing LOL! It's almost funny to discover that a guy who thought he was an unethical slut when he was married could have such a hard time with the idea of one that is ethical LOL!! Once I finish the book perhaps my understanding will be better.

Honestly, there is a huge part of me that wishes I was Polyamorous. I don't believe it is something that is learned..it is fundamental to a persons nature. Hmmm. I'm really getting into trouble here....
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2009, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Honestly, there is a huge part of me that wishes I was Polyamorous. I don't believe it is something that is learned..it is fundamental to a persons nature. Hmmm. I'm really getting into trouble here....
I feel exactly the same way. I wish I could force myself to be polyamorous. To be so free, I guess. Not that I feel like I am holding back.

I see what you are saying and I don't see why it should get you in trouble. I think you can learn to be anything you want, you just have to want to learn it first. I think that's it, fundamentally you have to want it. At this point in my life I don't want it.

Smil
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  #15  
Old 04-29-2009, 02:31 PM
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Smilnlol

I just re-read a part of your post where you stated "he needs to live his life and I will need to find a way to adapt".

You almost sound as though you don't have a choice. You always have a choice. I know there are some things I cannot adapt to..they are definitely defined as things I won't "adapt" too.

I love your reference to "wanting to learn something". Right now the only thing I am trying to learn is how to show Redpepper just how much I love her and I care about her family.

Yesterday I picked her up for our Tuesday night. Me and her husband got to visit (which is so important). We are becoming very good friends and I am in complete awe at just how much he loves Redpepper. Tonight I will watch their child so they can go to dinner..my suggestion. I want to bring them as close as possible as well as share in her love.

Last weekend, I spent time doing yard work with her family including her brother and parents. A lot of people in my life, and hers, know about our relationship (not her parents or brother yet, I am a close personal friend to them for now).

The point I am trying to make is the importance of everyone knowing each other, respecting each other and being committed to each others happiness. I am her secondary, he is her primary, and she has a few other intimate friends who I also met. This is how I envision polyamory to be and the beauty I find in it.

There is a broad definition of polyamory and expectations. Mine is only one and others will differ. If this (specifically referring to my relationship and the role polyamory plays) was purely an excuse to have sex with who ever you want I would definitely not be in this. I am not a swinger or a person who enjoys casual play. I thought I could be, gave it a try, and was sorely disappointed LOL!

I am a person who loves in a specific way. Redpepper is a person who loves in a specific way. We are deeply in love, she is my best friend, and we are all learning so much together. We all feel very fortunate in this..but it is not easy and it requires complete communication, honesty and love for each other way beyond the love associated with sex.

You always have a choice.
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2009, 05:04 AM
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Hmmm choice?
I don't want to tell Quath what to do. I am not sure how to deal with it. I don't want to share him yet I am not going to tell him no. It is out of my hands and that is super scary. If he chooses a poly life, even though I am apprehensive, afraid, sad, what choice do I have but to adapt? He has had to adapt to a mono life for 6 yrs.
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2009, 05:27 AM
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The issue of him adapting to a monogamous life at first interests me. It comes down to the expectations of the relationship when it started for me. I stress..for me.

Did he consciously state he was changing his love style to accommodate your monogamous nature? Was the possibility of it changing to polyamory discussed before you committed your love to him in the way a monogamous person does.

I just don't intimately love more than one person at a time..simple and plain. I love giving all of myself to one person. I also appreciate how polyamorous people love and how incredibly strong they are to do this. I live in it and it is amazing! Redpepper is a gift beyond description and the strenght of her relationship with her husband is overwhelming. I love them both.

I guess I'm asking if this was an expectation of yours originally? You always have a choice..there are always options. Do what makes you happy and healthy, but please don't do something just because you feel no other options are available to you.

I hope you don't mind if I ask my Lover Redpepper to look at your posts and offer her opinion. Although I enjoy sharing my experiences, I am finding myself getting caught up in the emotions of the posts from people that I probably incorrectly assume are being pushed along against their nature. I am raw, hurt and my objectivity is being replaced by anger.
I feel for you truly.
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  #18  
Old 04-30-2009, 07:40 AM
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Default finally got to this....

I don't get a chance to read these too often but am kept up to date and discussions abound around what is said on this forum between my partners and I... thanks for that... so much to learn and talk about.

Here is my opinion for what it is worth... please realize that I obviously don't know Quath's story and the subtle nuances that make up your relationship, so take what you will and leave the rest from what I am about to say.

It seems to me that your relationship is lacking some kind of vision. Some kind of goal to work towards within this journey you are on. Of course this would have to revolve around care and respect for each other. Without greed and selfishness. Within the practice of good compersion and as someone said before, practicing radical honesty. The way that people come together in poly is different and they might have different boundaries and rules, but the core is the same (the last sentence reflects the poly core to me). Where is this core in your relationship with Quath? It needs to be figure out first before adding layers around it, like an onion. It worries me that Quath seems to want to start with the outside of the onion and work in. Start with a relationship and then fill in the onion underneath it. The onion would then be hollow and flimsy and with lack of fidelity and substance. I don't see that working out. Of course it depends on how deep your love is... then you might already have the necessary core and it is a matter of peeling it away to remind yourself that you do love each other. If your love for one another is indeed deep and forever then peeling that onion is a good reminder of that and will bring you both strength when he goes out to find other loves. I would hope, having REALLY gotten to the core of your onion together that he isn't being selfish and in "let me cheat above board" mode. I also hope you are not the type to suck it up and let him go out to look for a relationship with someone without forcing the onion to be peeled first... I'm sorry but in these cases I think you are doomed...

I'm sorry to sound harsh but experience has taught me in this poly life I lead that to not say it like it is, put myself our there and sometimes be blunt means things are left unsaid and growth doesn't happen. Growth is good and so is change. Whatever happens it will all be for the best for both of you.

I recently went through an onion peeling process with my husband actually. It's very fresh for me (still crying over onions LOL), which is why I have such a strong opinion.

He had meet a woman on line that I had met the boyfriend of. We decided to all meet and see if there was any connection. For my husband there was an instant connection. I also saw potential to have a friendship with both of them and perhaps be lovers with both. I am now lovers/friends with the man which is not really significant to this story.

My husband pursued the woman for a time, all the while falling deeper and deeper in love. At one point she didn't call him back and he was desperately hurt. I could see that she didn't feel the same way and said so so he decided to back out and not talk to her... somehow they started up again and it got more and more intense. He asked me not to spend time with her, as I had her in my life too through her man. This was when I started to really worry. He didn't want to tell me about how he felt also. Essentially he was "cheating above board" in my eyes. He still hadn't told her that he was in love with her and I suggested he better tell her. I was right, she didn't feel the same way. My husband was devastated.

All along I was uncomfortable with this woman and the situation. I was angry, jealous, and a whole slew of other things also. The whole thing didn't sit right with me from day one and I thought I had to sit and take it because this is what he wanted.

One afternoon our onion peeled over this. We got to the very core of our relationship and found ourselves in a place where we could break up or move forward and re-peel our onion. We decided that we were still loving one another and moved forward from there having learned several lessons (1. always involve yourself in your lovers life with others, 2. go with your gut always, 3. we now always reserve the right to put a stop/pause to each others relationships when we are uncomfortable or not getting our needs met or our families needs... they always come first, and 4. it may hurt like hell, but never stop talking for whatever reason... silence is death). He broke it off with her at my request and hasn't seen her since.
My advice to you?
go peel your onion
get all the shit out on the table and see what you've got to work with
make some rules and boundaries for each other.
then make a plan and act on it.
avoiding all this will lead no where and make Quath more desperate to get on it. He will then (I predict, again from experience) take matters into his own hands and cheat on you, or force the issue, or leave you... you gotta give a little to get what you need.

It sounds like you have made a decision that you are not willing to live a poly life (I find the puppy ironic as you get to love it ? and your husband doesn't have his own "puppy" to love ? ... hmmmm ... not thinking of the sex of course! which apparently is 90% of a poly relationship? LOL another topic I won't get into now).... so TELL him. Open the door to conversation and compromise if you can. He will then have to decide to stay or not if you are not willing to budge.... 6 years of waiting might just be too much for him, or maybe he doesn't think losing all he has is worth it, but please be respectful and honest enough to tell him your truth. For both of you.

Last edited by redpepper; 04-30-2009 at 08:03 AM.
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2009, 12:48 PM
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Thanks for adding this Redpepper. I am glad you got to offer your ideas based on experience. I love you for everything!!

I must admit the comparison between the love of a puppy for her and a human being to get naked and sweaty with for him will probably soar way over the head of any monogamous person..I see zero comparison LOL! She would be expressing love with pats and treats and he would be expressing love with intercourse. I won't even try to understand that one Lover

I also don't see how sex isn't at the core begininnings of any polyamorous relationships either. I guess we differ here as I have yet to see or read about the beginings or intentions to start any polyamorous relationship without the expectations to experience each other sexualy. Differences make a realtionship full and promote communication, which promotes connection!!

Smilnlol, I hope you draw upon Redpeppers advice. She is an amazing person with experience and a cpacity to love that is both scary and beautiful to me. She is a gift that I probably don't deserve but plan on sharing my love with forever..cause I'm greedy
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:38 PM
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oh geez, that was suppose to be my attempt at humor with the puppy thing...
and as for the 90% sex thing... I wasn't going to to get into that., but... in brief...
Of course sex is a huge part! how would there be a separation between friend and lover otherwise. I certainly count monoVCPG as my lover but other people I have sex with our friendship definitely comes first and the sex second. I guess it is all a matter of definition of relationships.
k, lots more I could say but I don't want to lose focus on the issues at hand.
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