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  #21  
Old 09-03-2009, 09:20 PM
OneSoul OneSoul is offline
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What is our true nature?

As children did we every hold on to Old issues or worry about the Future?
Children live in the Moment. In the present...

They have within them always the following energies naturally (unless ofcourse exceptional circumstances)..
- Love - Natural affinity & curiosity for most things, people etc.
- Peace - Always at peace
- Joy - Always have a smile on their faces.. Even if they cry or get upset.. They forget about it soon.. Or its realy easy to move them forward to the next moment.. even if they get hurt..(fall down etc).. We can call it distracting them from injury but really.. The physical pain might still be there.. But..

They DO NO IDENTIFY with it.. They move forward past those moments..

That is our TRUE NATURE. Within us..

Its these moments we seek.. in everything we do. Anything & everythin enjoyable is about getting IMMERSED.. INTO THAT MOMENT.. No past or future.

Love, Sex, Orgasm, Beauty, Art, Music, Dance, Children, Playing, Sports, Meditation etc..

When we are lost in that moment, living completely... we do not think past or future..

Its the past or future thoughts that bring misery.

Expectations of how something SHOULD BE.. v/s HOW IT IS.. brings misery.

What I am trying to get to is... When you are FREE to BE.. YOU.. without having to BEND to or CHANGE to or CATER to.. Someone elses boundaries or expecataions.. or behaviors.. Non judgementally completely accepting & accepted.

Even in the notion of love.. with someone..

Try & remember how you felt.. best times... & worst times in a relationship..

Its when you cant BE.. because someone wants you to be a certain way... or you are in automatic inner conflict because you're stopping yourself from BEING.. to PLEASE someone else's Need & Expectation.

Isnt this why, initially people are in love (or think they are in love.. because they are just BEING & ACCEPTING & consc expands).. they ACCEPT people as THEY ARE.. completely.. and then when the CONSC contracts.. they start to nit pick the other...
labeling & judging.. and later even being hard on yourself & judging..

Where is the love & where is the freedome to BE and Let BE?

I dont know if you get my notion of Love? This is what I know is LOVE.
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  #22  
Old 09-03-2009, 09:31 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Originally Posted by OneSoul View Post
As children did we every hold on to Old issues or worry about the Future?
Children live in the Moment. In the present...

.
Children are not near so simple. A lot of people think they are becasue they don't take the time to really communicate with them. They have future concerns just like adults. The scope of them is just different.

I am glad you have such a solid understanding of what love is to you though my friend..that must be a nice feeling
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  #23  
Old 09-03-2009, 09:57 PM
OneSoul OneSoul is offline
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Children are not near so simple. A lot of people think they are becasue they don't take the time to really communicate with them. They have future concerns just like adults. The scope of them is just different.

I am glad you have such a solid understanding of what love is to you though my friend..that must be a nice feeling
We have messed up our children. They are smarter much sooner because of exposure.. But are they happier? We rob them of their innocence.

We rob ourselves of our own innocence.

I am talking True Nature.. not Socially & Parental programmed nature.

We begin by teaching them to WORRY.. Consciously or unconsciously.. They learn from us. Are not born with a Training Manual.

We change their true nature. We need to learn from them, unlearn what we have learnt so that we can go back to our true nature.

Do you even realize that the child does not know how to identify ITSELF by its OWN NAME.

We TEACH the child to RESPOND to the "NAME".

You are "NAME".
Child: "My name is NAME".

That is the beginning of the Ego. The mind.. and the separateness..

Then entire life is lived in building up this ego as the society programs us and wants us to do.

Children smile a lot.. At times for no REASON. It could be as simple as the sun shining, feeling a cooling breeze, a splash of water...
why?

INNOCENCE.

Not bound by Societies parameters & programming of what should make you happy and what should not..

When we go back to that source... That is true happiness.. Does not come from the outside... Not from anyone else... Not even from the "I" or the "ego".

From within...

Master says... Innocence & Smile of a Child, Awareness & Responsibility of an Adult .

Sign off with this song I remember...

"...The return to your Self, Return to Innocence" - Enigma.

Last edited by OneSoul; 09-03-2009 at 10:00 PM.
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  #24  
Old 09-03-2009, 10:23 PM
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We TEACH the child to RESPOND to the "NAME".

You are "NAME".
Child: "My name is NAME".

That is the beginning of the Ego. The mind.. and the separateness..

Then entire life is lived in building up this ego as the society programs us and wants us to do.
Much of what you say is true, OneSoul, but you leave out a possibility that I think is crucial. That possibility is the realization and experience of one's unique individual self, along with his/her name (life story, etc.), in terms of distinctness without separation--, individuation and autonomy without being divided from the cosmic wholeness which you call "Oneness".

There is an interesting episode in the intersection of "spirituality" and "psychology" that involves a certain Dr. Freud. An admirer of Freud wrote a letter to Freud, saying "By religious feeling, what I mean—altogether independently of any dogma, any Credo, any organization of the Church, any Holy Scripture, any hope for personal salvation, etc.—the simple and direct fact of a feeling of 'the eternal' (which may very well not be eternal, but simply without perceptible limits, and as if oceanic). This feeling is in truth subjective in nature. It is a contact."

http://www.enotes.com/psychoanalysis...ceanic-feeling

Freud had no such experience of his own (not consciously, anyway! Repressed?), and tended to associate these sorts of experiences, including the often associated experience of "oneness" -- or of being identical with all of existence -- as a holdover from infancy: infantile, as he called it.

Myself? My life has been deeply influenced by "the oceanic experience" -- the occasional emersion in the certainty that I am not separate, but, if anything, merely distinct. I am James. My Jamesness no more separates me from all of existence than a particular leaf on a tree is separated from the tree, or a drop of water is separated from the ... well, the ocean.

The "spiritual" task we have before us is simply to deepen our sense of non-separation from all of existence -- and all other persons, animals, etc... -- while also deepening our experience and appreciation of our uniqueness, individulaity, and human personhood -- including our name and biography. This is the much less "infantile" approach than an all-dissolving "Oneness".

So I shall end with a greeting and a word of departure in India.: Namaste!
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Last edited by River; 09-03-2009 at 10:27 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-04-2009, 01:49 AM
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Do you even realize that the child does not know how to identify ITSELF by its OWN NAME.

.
Not to sound confrontational, but I'd love to know more of your story my friend. I have a child so I know lots about them. It's easy not to get too existential when you watch them grow. They are not some mythical animal running through feilds with thier hands in the air giggling eternally. They are real human beings with all the emotions biologically given to them. Thier environment and experiences do shape how they deal with those emotions but they would have them regardless. They are people.
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 09-04-2009 at 02:06 AM.
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  #26  
Old 09-04-2009, 12:56 PM
XYZ123 XYZ123 is offline
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Not to sound confrontational, but I'd love to know more of your story my friend. I have a child so I know lots about them. It's easy not to get too existential when you watch them grow. They are not some mythical animal running through feilds with thier hands in the air giggling eternally. They are real human beings with all the emotions biologically given to them. Thier environment and experiences do shape how they deal with those emotions but they would have them regardless. They are people.
This. OneSoul, I have a child and have worked with young children half of my life, and have a degree in Developmental psych. While I agree with you that most children DO have love, joy, and peace within them that is not ALL they have. They have anger, fear, frustration, sadness. Or at least the CAPACITY for all these things-both good and bad. A baby is born pure id. S/he has a need (food, to be cleaned, comfort, pain) and will cry until that need is met with no concern for the wants or needs or emotions of the caretakers. As a toddler a child is the center of his/her own universe. Most smile often-but they smile because they are pleased, not necessarily because they LOVE. They care that others are pleased with them because it means they get attention and positive feedback, not because they LOVE this person pleased with them. We see a child smiling and associate that with love and happiness because we know that is what WE feel when WE smile. Children occasionally smile for no other reason than to test facial muscles, no different than making sounds to practice vocalization.

It is us, as adults, who are responsible to take the CAPACITY for love and joy and peace and to bring it out in the child-and to subsequently do our best to counter the CAPACITY for anger and sadness and fear. Relationships are the same way. We all come into them with our own natural and environmentally programmed emotions-both positive and negative. It is through communication, compassion, compromise, and commitment to eachother within those relationships that we grow together to form positive connections rather than negative.

"What I am trying to get to is... When you are FREE to BE.. YOU.. without having to BEND to or CHANGE to or CATER to.. Someone elses boundaries or expecataions.. or behaviors.. Non judgementally completely accepting & accepted."

This (couldn't get the quotes to work) idea is beautiful in theory. But IMO this is not likely to lead to a fulfilling, lifelong, loving relationship. As humans with all our own delicate emotions and our own boundaries and our own expectations (and we ALL have them to some level), we naturally have to bend to those of our loves, just as they have to bend to ours. I'm not talking about changing who you are fundamentally or immersing yourself so far in another you are lost. I'm talking the day-to-day compromises. I'm talking being there for a love when they are hurt, angry, insecure...just as you would hope they would be there for you. Love is not all about butterflies, flowers, candy hearts, and smiles. It is about taking the good with the bad and still loving through it all.
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  #27  
Old 09-05-2009, 09:32 AM
OneSoul OneSoul is offline
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JRiver - I think you are as close as it gets on these forums to what I have experienced.

Mono & XYZ - I dont see the value in dissecting the psych analysis you have written. I have done the same for years.. Its the intellectual analytical way... Excuse me if you feel that I am responding to every specific argument point you have made head on.

Proving oneself right & someone else wrong is the greatest kick to the ego... I tend to get into that, but then become aware... each person is different.. each his own.

I am not here to prove my point or outline qualifications & depth of human behavioral analysis nor outline how many psych books, how many children & how many varied people & companies I have worked with across the globe for various Fortune 10, 20 companeies. ( I know I just did that.. lol ...)
I am here to share an experience without using any of the above as a "credibility" or "qualification" statement. Which is why I did not do it earlier.

I am not saying I am better or better off than you or anyone else... We all have our journey, experience & shifts in perception & awareness.

Moving forward...

The mind cannot perceive or fathom what the heart has experienced. (Apples & Oranges)

With no disrespect the only thing I can say is.. Maybe you have yet to experience unconditional bliss devoid of external circumstances that 'please' you. Yet to experience that true nature.. or become aware of it when it does happen. We start with that true nature, lose it & then crave it all our lives in all things, actions, thoughts, emotions, relationships, activities & people.

If you think a so called beautiful scene in nature 'pleases' you because the colors are vivid etc etc.. Then thats true to some level.. But that is later intellectual evaluation of an experience with logical reasoning "Why is this so captivating?"

There are times when you're captured by a sight and there are no thoughts, you're not thinking... Beautiful or Colors or Captivating.. in fact the mind is not at all LABELING the experience. There are no thoughts & labels about IT... No attention or thoughts of the past or future.. of remembering the sight or of having seen something similar.. Of being a human being who enjoys such sights..

If you think children laugh & smile more because they are 'pleased' by things we do.. then I am sorry to say in my humble opinion you've read way too much freudian psychology.. and I doubt if Freud was a happy person.

Maybe that is why children are happier because they carry lesser sense of "ego" "Identity" built upon past & future. They build catles in the air for that moment .. and then let it go in the next moment..

They are not a mythical creature... They are as real as it gets.. If you want to see a glimpse of god.. then after an Enlightened Master they are the closest commonly occuring observable phenomenon.

They bring you INTO the moment, into their play... You forget all worries of past & future no matter how troubling.

For me this did not happen until the last few years.. Its been a journey that cannot happen for anyone until it is time. I've ignored it for years before.. then it was high time.
As the Master says.. "Do not try to explain your experiences. They will not understand"

In words the space can be articulated but its like articulating the taste of asian food to a guy who has had nothing but mashed potatoes all his life & nothing else. (Just an analogy).

Its like explaining love & peace to a terrorist, someone who is one because their life experiences had none.

Like the rush of bungee jumping to someone who has never experienced any such thing..

Its the Archimedes sense of Eureka/ Aha! moment for the heart & the soul.

In terms of caring for someone else.. and supporting them. ...You would do it and anything & everything from the heart out of your own choosing.. own feeling own drive.
Not because someone tells you "you dont do X, so you do not love me".

Those that need to be "proved" to that you love them over & over again do not understand love.

e.g. If someone tells you "I love you", you doubt it. If someone tells you "I hate you" you believe it. Its the nature of the mind to DOUBT. Especially to DOUBT the positive.

Love is not ... You do X (my expectation) = You love me. If you dont do X = You dont love me. ..Vice versa. That is NOT love. That is transaction. You give me X & I will give you Y... Doing X out of your heart is fine.. doing it because of a demand.. / conditional "If you X then you love me" is ... Transactional.
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  #28  
Old 09-05-2009, 05:54 PM
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Discovering or realizing that love is what we are rather than something we need to get is one of the more essential or basic "mystical" experiences, and I think probably a lot of us in this forum have had that bell ring in their lives at some time or another -- and then we forget, the insight was had but the force of it dropped away. This would seem to be a common enough experience.

Perhaps all we need to do is to practice? That is, we may need to practice being love, rather than striving after getting it? Maybe this is how we can overcome this sense that there just isn't enough love?

Maybe questions are more important than answers? Students more important than teachers?
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:30 PM
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I haven't been trying to psychoanalyze you or tear you down or prove you wrong. I have been trying to understand what you are talking about and how you got there. And to do that, I present my feelings and ask you questions. Yet you do not really respond to what is said coherently, nor answer direct questions with direct answers-from anyone. You instead make assumptions that others are somehow trying to prove you wrong, which we are not. You write again about having been somehow enlightened but do not really add anything new or clear up what is being misunderstood. To be funny about it (and honestly not meant as a put down) you write in such a way as I spoke in my 20s when first trying ecstasy.

If you have experienced some spiritual awakening, then I'm happy for you. I have looked into the eyes of my child and experienced pure love and know I would love him even if he grew up to put a gun to my head. It is unconditional. However, I don't have to accept everything he does as a condition of my love for him. I help to shape his life and his actions and his reactions so that he is prepared for the hardships and relationships and dangers of the world. This doesn't mean I love him less, but in fact I love him more because I happily shoulder the weight of that responsibility. What you SEEM to be talking about is unconditional love meaning unconditional acceptance. And, as I said before, while I think that is a beautiful notion, I don't see it as leading to a lasting love. If you are only talking about love IN THE MOMENT, love that does not last, I have experienced such things as well where there is no thought behind the peace I feel. The beauty of a sunset, the joy of a cool breeze on a hot day, the smile of a baby, the yapping of a puppy. But that, to me, is not true love. It is simply a passing moment of peace and joy. Appreciated for no other reason than its existence, but not the essence of love. When I love someone I want to hold on to them, to keep them but without possessing them. Holding on to love and possessing it are not one and the same. I do not love my child or my husband only in the moment they make me smile and forget them in the next. I love with all my heart all the time, even when they anger and hurt me. THAT, IMO, is the true measure of love. We may not mean such different things, but I do find you difficult to understand and, so, I can't really tell.
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  #30  
Old 09-07-2009, 01:25 AM
NotPolly NotPolly is offline
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Default Wanted to add my experience

I have been seeing someone for the past six months in a sexual relationship with someone who told me from the beginning that he is not monogamous. I chose to ignore this and proceed with the relationship anyway. We had some great, fun times and he is very loving when he's with me. But every so often reminders of his polyamory would come up and I would then attempt to "break up" with him. (Inevitably and eventually I came back.) This weekend I encountered evidence that he is and has been seeing someone else all along, and he's bringing her on a trip with him next month. I am hurt and consumed with jealousy and have now broken up with him again, hopefully for good. I just can't deal with the lifestyle, though I understand why he is in it... it's just not good for me. It's crushingly painful for me and yet I know it will be hard for me to forget him and move on - though I need to. This is where I'm at right now.
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