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  #51  
Old 09-03-2009, 03:40 AM
XYZ123 XYZ123 is offline
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AH HA! I had one of those moments. Much of my lack of understanding your posts and your plight came from the simple fact we define "single" differently. Where, for me, it is complete unattachment-for you it is not having a primary relationship but possibly having other attachments. Thank you for the clarification.

The comparison I was trying to make between poly singles and Vs? Hmm... Use MY definition of "single" for this analogy.

A group (three or more) of Poly-oriented singles forming a spontaneous equal relationship including them all IS TO unicorn hunting(finding a bisexual woman to fall in love with and commit to polyfi with both parties of a couple) AS....

Two poly-oriented singles forming a couple modeled relationship open to the inclusion of others from the birth of said relationship IS TO a couple finding a third who has a romantic relationship with only one member of the couple, thus forming a V.

While I know that the former are possible and do happen, the latter are a more likely scenario. Especially given how difficult it must be to find other poly-oriented singles in a community that is strongly focused on couples.

I hope that clears up what I meant a little.

I don't have any answers for you on how to feel more included. You're probably correct that many see singles as someone to invite into pre-existing relationships. To invite a single person (my definition usage) is to invite only that person and not their own attachments and entanglements as well, making it slightly easier on the couple I would think. So single polys, especially bisexual females, are sought out by couples rather than seen as someone wanting to form their own primary relationship. Or, as JR said, some couples actually want everyone to be primary and don't like having a secondary. It all depends on what each person entering or considering a relationship is comfortable with and is willing to work towards.

If you feel very strongly that you cannot be a second primary and are, therefor by default, a secondary to anyone coupled that you may become involved with, then I can't debate your feeling. If you wish to form your own primary relationship with another single poly, then I hope you get your wish. And you seem such a strong and determined woman I am sure you will and I am sure you will never sell yourself short in reaching for what you want.

Please forgive us couples though if you are so desirable we just can't resist trying.
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  #52  
Old 09-03-2009, 09:46 PM
OneSoul OneSoul is offline
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Ceoli. I completely agree with your post. I have not met or been with any poly groups.. But have had an open loving relationship with a girl.

We might have started casual but began to care for each other.. and still do.. (we did date other people in between) Ofcourse, distance logistics changed that.. & the feelings..

We were both single.. unattached.. and were seeing people casually, semi-casually.. and then found each other caring & loving each other.. but still not bound into a Mono commit.. or expectations.. when we'd get to catch up or meet.. we'd be like peas in a pod.

There was almost no negativity or binding or expectation..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiverMartin View Post
As I continue to read in this thread, with full acknowledgement that I've blundered in without having read the whole thread thouroughly before spouting off, I keep thinking that -- for some, at least -- the problem amounts to the whole idea of "secondaries".

Some may enjoy and appreciate their "secondaries," and vice versa, and all can be happy in that PolyLand, but some "secondaries" or would-be-"secondaries" may not like to come in second -- and, frankly, I can't blame them. Who wants to be second when you might like to come in an equal first?

An equal first? Why, sure! Why not? Can't there be a tie?

What does it mean to love and be loved? It seems to me that it cannot mean that someone is "second best" or "secondary", if it is to be complete love, and isn't complete love what we desire?

Maybe some of us don't even know what complete love might be? Or why love must be complete for it to be love?

"Oh, sure, honey, I love you, but you are my "secondary," and I must love my "primary" just a little moreso." <----- Not an arrangement I'd sign onto if I wanted complete love, and what good is an incomplete love?

[Running for cover.]
That one in red.. One hell of a question.. I love that one.. Most people do not want the answer.. or are not ready for it because they are too stuck in their definition & understanding of it

I think part of the thing is COMPARISON. The so called primary wants to feel special compared to the new one. Boom! There goes LOVE.

Its like sibling rivalry. Asking the parent if they love child over another.

We bring that comparative control drama (Celestine Prohecy) with us..

We want to be first in the class, in the university, in the 100m race...

COMPARATIVE MINDSET. This is what the Masters say is the SEED of the MIND & THE EGO.

How can you love (as an action) the other ... You are already ONE with EVERYONE !!!

How can you distinguish between Yourself & the Beloved.. or another Beloved.

Harsh words.. but dont take offence.. Think about it...

The notion of Poly-Amory is false.. If we would like to LOVE one more and LOVE one less...

Might as well just SWING .. and find a Swingers or a 3rd wheel unicorn..?

Think about it.. Why does your SOUL want to add a 3rd to LOVE & not the just have SEX with..

But your (& partners) self protective FEAR based Mind & EGO.. not let you TRULY LOVE & SURRENDER to the 3rd completely?

Its the same thing in Mono.. where A is cheating on B .with C.. and A is stuck in mono limited thoughts.. thinking I can only Love B or Love C..
How can I be in love with both?

Difference is here.. Perception here is.. A.. wants a 100% v/s 0% grading.

Reality is.. A probaly has a X% & Y% Shift between both..

In the Poly thing.. for REAL AMOR (love) to exist.. It has to be not 70/30 or 60/40... not even 50/50.... Its about 100/100...

Love increases not decreases with sharing.

If in poly scene of 3 or more people.. There is a comparative, partial love mechanism... then they should question why... should someone be treated or even feel / percieve like the NEGLECTED CHILD.

Think about it..
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  #53  
Old 09-03-2009, 11:30 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRiverMartin View Post
In the respect I have had experience with, as part of a couple wanting to open to someone outside our jumping rope play, I found it difficult to get across the understanding that this other person would not have to function as a "secondary" --, but could join as an equal -- even though coming late to the play. Later, much later, it was aparent that he neither wanted that nor was he capalble of it -- but I KNEW that I was capable of it, and that my already jumping rope partner was also capable.
Even when a couple invites a third in to be a complete equal, there are inherent imbalances that exist. If the couple has been together a number of years they have made all sorts of decisions about the life they've built that the third would not have had a voice in. It would be a case of trying to fit an outside element into something already established. I respect that for some people that's not an issue at all, and they would be able to pick up from wherever they were at.

But I know that for myself, I really look forward to building a life with someone and really value that process of building a life together. I would have to give up a great deal of that if I were to join a couple. When I'm with a couple, I tend to feel a distinct loss of those opportunities and privileges that they enjoyed.


As for the "secondary" issue, people define things very differently in such things. For me, that label can often just point to the logistics, not the amount of love shared. A primary is a person with whom you live, have kids with, etc. Secondaries can be intense loving relationships as well, just in some different circumstance from the primary. It's entirely possible to have more than one primary (in fact, I know lots of people that have that) and I'm certainly open to something like that, because I would still get to enjoy the process of building a life or starting a family. I have some loves where I am in a more secondary position, and I'm ok with that, but I don't want only secondary relationships in my life. I hope to have the chance to have a primary relationship.

But the thing is, years ago, I made a promise to myself to be open to any kind of love that my show up in my life. So despite the fact that I still haven't found that primary relationship (whatever that means), I've still been able to enjoy love in all sorts of ways I never expected (including a lovely relationship with a couple I'm having right now). Unfortunately, it still doesn't take away the ache of that fundamental lack I feel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by XYZ123 View Post
While I know that the former are possible and do happen, the latter are a more likely scenario. Especially given how difficult it must be to find other poly-oriented singles in a community that is strongly focused on couples.

I hope that clears up what I meant a little.
Yep, that certainly does clear it up. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by XYZ123 View Post
If you feel very strongly that you cannot be a second primary and are, therefor by default, a secondary to anyone coupled that you may become involved with, then I can't debate your feeling. If you wish to form your own primary relationship with another single poly, then I hope you get your wish. And you seem such a strong and determined woman I am sure you will and I am sure you will never sell yourself short in reaching for what you want.

Please forgive us couples though if you are so desirable we just can't resist trying.
I am certainly open to being an additional primary (not a second primary). What I'm looking for is the chance to build a life together, not join a life that's already been built. I'm hoping to have a family as well. If the cards happen to fall that this happens with two primaries but we can still get to go through the beautiful process of building and growing a life together, then I have no issue with that. Unfortunately, I can't see having that with a couple that has already established their life together.

And shucks! <blush> There's certainly nothing to forgive on the part of couples. Like I said before, I unexpectedly fell for one lately. Feel free to woo away. And thanks so much for vote of confidence!
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  #54  
Old 09-03-2009, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Even when a couple invites a third in to be a complete equal, there are inherent imbalances that exist. If the couple has been together a number of years they have made all sorts of decisions about the life they've built that the third would not have had a voice in. It would be a case of trying to fit an outside element into something already established. I respect that for some people that's not an issue at all, and they would be able to pick up from wherever they were at.
What you say here does make a good deal of sense, and has much truth in it, but I don't think that the fact that a couple has already "built a life together" (to paraphrase) necessitates that that life can't be happily begun anew, and freshly, with the addition of another. To do so would, of course, involve extraordinary people. But there are extraordinary people about. And being such a person, yourself, you might try to remain open to their magnatism.
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  #55  
Old 09-03-2009, 11:46 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Well, as I said earlier, I am dating a couple and I never say "never" in life

One other thing that makes it work for me right now is that they are not expecting me to be monogamous to them (for me, the closed poly-fi triad feels a lot like extended monogamy). This allows us to grow in our relationship in a way that's right for us and right for the relationship and takes the pressure off of having to give up the needs that this relationship can't meet.
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  #56  
Old 09-03-2009, 11:53 PM
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I totally resonate with the desire to leave things open that I see in your writing. Not so much because I think I can handle four or five lovers all at once: this I profoundly doubt! But because I think the spirit of openness to novelty, exploration, creativity, change, is simply part of what loving people is about.

It's amazing to see that I'm feeling and thinking this way when once, years ago, I couldn't have imagined being who/what I am now. But this goes with what I said! Love and the knowledge of loving grows -- if we let it. I'm totally jazzed that love doesn't feel like an enclosure to me, now, but as a leaping off place -- but one that deserves to be treated with great care, and love.
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  #57  
Old 11-26-2009, 04:26 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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BUMP!

Hey i got directed to this thread from another thread. I wanted to add my exps.

I guess, hm, maybe i am not really poly in the pure sense of the word. I am in a "primary" relationship, but we dont live together. We each have our own places but spend about half the week together in one or another's apt.

m and I met each other when we were both single, both coming out of other long term relationships. I didnt want to imm settle down w one person, after 34 yrs w the same guy! Good thing m was poly and completely fine w me seeing as many other ppl as I needed to "be myself," self-actualize...

A couple months ago my husband and I sold our house and I needed to get an apt and I couldve moved in w madi. We both would have enjoyed the lower rent that wouldve entailed. But I chose to get my own place. She and I have lots of work to do in our new life situations, and I felt the need for space.

Another way we dont fit as pure primaries is, I am 22 yrs older than her. She'd like a family, whereas Ive got 3 young adult kids and am post menopausal. (Also she's trans, on hormones, so unable to have a biological child anyway.)

One more way we aren't traditionally primary. I go out w a lot of ppl, Ive dated about a dozen men and one other woman this yr. I havent found "love" w any of them, or not True Love tm. Not really "looking for love," either. I mean, I am looking for friends, ppl who are cool, smart, hip, funny, respectful. I need good sex too, and since I am bi, a man would be nice to have it with.

I am looking to "like," but I am not burdened with any sort of desperation or urgency, for True Love TM. I already have that... I just wanna have some variety now. I'm playing the field, and that hasnt changed even tho I am deeply in love with m.

Luckily she and I are totally on the same page w regards to all that. However she does hold an ideal of multiple poly partners in some sort of poly-fi relationship, while realizing it's a lofty goal.

We are definitly not one of those formerly mono couples now opening their relationship, seeking that elusive unicorn!
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  #58  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Nyx Nyx is offline
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Unfortunately I do not have time to read every single post on here, but I did peruse most. I am going to totally walk into unknown territory here (being not poly really at all, merely interested) and try to put in my two cents.

It sounds to me that, Ceoli, you are wanting a relationship in which you and your partner(s) are there from the beginning. I can understand the underlying feeling of being an outsider still when dating a couple (of course - they have this whole history together you were not involved with!).

It seems to me that (and I am going to COMPLETELY put poly aside for right now) that you desire a life partner. Whether or not there is one or two of them, you want someone to have a beginning with, a middle with, and a foreseeable future with. That is what a lot of singles desire, poly or not.

Reading through these boards over the last few months, I have totally noticed that there is a DEFINITE prevelance of couple-based poly folks. I think I even mentioned in a post of mine once, what the heck do you do if you're NOT already in a couple??

I guess I am getting an answer to that question by reading your thread here. I wish I had some magic words of wisdom, but alas, I am in a rock-and-a-hard-place situation myself being a single mother. Men don't mind dating single moms, but they won't commit to them.

Being single is pretty rough. On the one hand it's nice to have freedom, but it's also nice to have a partnership. Here is a site I want to refer you to. Maybe it's too cheesmo or doesn't have to do with your situation, but here it is anyway if you want to look at it:

http://www.singleshelp.org/
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  #59  
Old 11-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Thanks for reading the thread. As I stated in my initial posts, I do hope for a partnership that involves building a home and possibly a family together. At the same time I recognize that there are all sorts of possibilities for lifelong partnerships that don't necessarily have to be living together or having a family together. So I want to be clear that finding life long parters is not the issue. It's finding partners that are available to build a home and family with that is generally harder to find in poly communities.

Thanks for the website, but honestly I don't consider it terribly relevant. At this point in my life, being single is the way it has to be for various reasons and I'm fine with that and I don't measure my worth or value based on whether I have a relationship or not. I wouldn't put myself into the category of a person who can't cope with it. However, it still doesn't change what my ultimate wants are.
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  #60  
Old 08-26-2011, 11:06 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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There's been some interesting threads lately. One asking about any divides in the poly community, and others talking about terminology and how certain words impact people (omniamory, secondary, etc.).

I am resurrecting this thread because what's on my mind mostly, when I think about my choice to live polyamorously, is my status as a solo person trying to have a poly life. Lots of good stuff in this thread, if one wants to read through it. What stood our for me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigrrrlily View Post
i want to get involved with certain INDIVIDUALS, and i don't mind, in principle, if those individuals are also seeing other people - living together, occasionaly, whatever.
. . . I'm not looking for a combination or a situation. I'm looking for people. Precisely, to relate to people, to relate as fully as possible to as many people as possible who i have that spark with. How many people that is and how fully isn't build into me or lover/s but into circumstance . . . bottom line, which I think we agree on, is that coupling or tripling are not the only ways of being poly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I would like the privilege of building a life and making those decisions in partnership. This doesn't mean that I desire monogamy or exclusivity. I have appreciated all of the relationships I've had in all of their different forms. But I have yet to be able to find a long term poly relationship where I wouldn't have to cede that privilege to partners who are already coupled in a primary way or are couples themselves.

My point is that poly communities with their couple-centric views tend to make finding such things harder for those of us who are not "coupled".

. . . Most of the book is geared towards people who are already in couples, as is most of the literature out there on poly . . . I often feel that single poly people are marginalized within the poly community . . . If the pronouns you use in the context of the relationship are still "we", "us" and "ours" while mine are still "I", "me", and "mine", I can't find balance that way.
There still seems to be this idea out there, which I have found directed toward me, that if I do not have a partner or spouse then all my relationships are casual, and not committed. That, for me, seems the biggest divide. For those who are unpartnered or unmarried and not necessarily seeking one primary, it seems people always want to put you in some other category, like unicorn (another word I dislike) or "just fucking around." Add to that the fact that I'm straight woman, and therefore not interested in being a unicorn, no one seems to know what to do with me, LOL!

I would love to hear from other single or solo poly people, male or female, about their experiences in pursuing poly.
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Last edited by nycindie; 08-26-2011 at 11:38 PM.
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