Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Site Usage > User Guidelines & Forum Features

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #131  
Old 01-05-2011, 11:35 PM
FlameKat's Avatar
FlameKat FlameKat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: :P Cautiously looking around this new world that seems to fit...
Posts: 311
Default

This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.
__________________
Smile! It makes people wonder what you've been up to

Engaged to my sweetheart, WaterWolf

my blog (non-poly) Pearls & Pixiedust


Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 01-06-2011, 12:25 AM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry.
I guess that does not make a lot of sense to me because my understanding of an apology is the statement "I'm sorry." If you are NOT sorry, then the statement is not true.

Quote:
The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward.
I understand this type of apology... "for the sake of the relationship" because that is where I found myself in my last marriage. I was constantly apologizing and assuming the blame for all the problems in the relationship (in an attempt to heal or save it.)" But this can be taken to the extreme... which is what happened in my case. It didn't heal anything, it just sucked the joy out of life and the soul out of me. (So here is the source of my trigger.)

The difference here is that I had not really hurt him. He was playing mind games. (Which a lot of people will do, so I don't necessarily or automatically trust people who claim to be "hurt" or "offended." There are too many games being played almost unconsciously.)

Quote:
Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place.
My healing took place when I got a divorce.

Quote:
Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive.
I tell that to people who wonder why I sometimes stop at green lights and look both directions.

Quote:
Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.
Yes, an apology can keep you alive. (so can packing two suitcases and getting on a bus..; LOL

......But I don't think an apology should be symbolic of anything other than what it actually is. I think it should be true and sincere.

....unless of course your life is at stake. Then you can lie like hell.
__________________
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Last edited by Olderwoman; 01-06-2011 at 12:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 01-06-2011, 12:43 AM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...
Yes I know. I went back and re-read it.

The one word answer that you are requesting is still no.

The better answer is:

I will apologize IF I actually feel sorry.
__________________
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 01-06-2011, 03:45 AM
ray's Avatar
ray ray is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 819
Default

Before my poly adventure began, I was fairly religious and belonged to a church (that turned out to be a crazyyy place, even by evangelical standards) but there is one thing in particular that was "preached" that I took away. On the subject of conflict resolution.
Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we mean to, sometimes we don't. They may be crazy and overly sensitive. Regardless, if some one comes to us and is hurt by our words or actions, one of the best ways to restore friendship is to simply say, I am sorry I hurt you. or something to that effect. To apologize that your actions caused them some pain. I've found that that alone can do so much that the issue often dissipates. Especially if it was something minor to begin with. Perhaps then if they've hurt you too, you can ask them to apologize to you. I know that was/is a hard mental transition for me because I love to be right. And if I think I'm right then I sure as hell don't want to apologize for something that's probably your fault anyway. But that kind of thinking has never helped me mend any relationship. So I've been working on it.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 01-06-2011, 05:18 AM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray View Post
Before my poly adventure began, I was fairly religious and belonged to a church (that turned out to be a crazyyy place, even by evangelical standards) but there is one thing in particular that was "preached" that I took away. On the subject of conflict resolution.
Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we mean to, sometimes we don't. They may be crazy and overly sensitive. Regardless, if some one comes to us and is hurt by our words or actions, one of the best ways to restore friendship is to simply say, I am sorry I hurt you. or something to that effect. To apologize that your actions caused them some pain. I've found that that alone can do so much that the issue often dissipates. Especially if it was something minor to begin with. Perhaps then if they've hurt you too, you can ask them to apologize to you. I know that was/is a hard mental transition for me because I love to be right. And if I think I'm right then I sure as hell don't want to apologize for something that's probably your fault anyway. But that kind of thinking has never helped me mend any relationship. So I've been working on it.
Ray,

<warning:here is my soapbox philosophy>

I don't disagree with what you are saying. It is called politeness or common courtesy. It is considered a good habit when you deal with a group of people. It's like asking a person, "How are you?" and they will automatically respond: "Fine!" Or even like saying "I love you" and expecting them to respond, "I love you too." (And if they don't respond with "I love you too" as expected, someone is very likely to get hurt.)

I am not at all against these kinds of polite social interactions, but I have noticed people unconsciously carrying on lengthy meaningless conversations and greeting people and not truly connecting with them in the slightest.

It is like when the check-out person at the supermarket says "Paper or plastic?" and "Have a nice day" and their eyes never meet yours. Their minds are somewhere else and they don't actually care about your day or your answer. or you... ....and no one really expects them to...

We often walk around like unconscious robots, our brains just running programs (me included).. and we don't actually "see" or listen to people or actually connect with them in the moment. We don't mean half of what we say. We don't wonder who they really are. We are like actors on a stage reading the lines we have rehearsed and have been told (programed) we should say, because it is polite and socially acceptable.

It is not easy to live consciously in the moment. I have discovered that when I try it, and deviate from common programming, some people will often "wake up" for a brief moment, sometimes just long enough to be hurt or offended... or even shocked.

For me, it has nothing to do with "being right." It is an exercise in being conscious and true.(honest) not in being righteous. Following group programming can be easily learned and followed. Eventually you will fit in and become a cog in the wheel of your society and you can spend your time having meaningless interactions with strangers, never really connecting with anyone or getting to know anyone.

I believe that each and every encounter I have with any living thing is meaningful and that moment is all that exists. It is my goal to practice being in the moment. It isn't easy. I can't do it for long or even often.

So I sometime say "how are you? and "I am fine" and "have a nice day." and "Thank you" But I try to remember to look in the person's eyes and see the person behind them and really think about what I am saying. And I do say "I'm sorry" and "I love you" and I try to remember to say it only when I actually feel it. That is how I practice living consciously.

</wow... end of soapbox>
__________________
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 01-06-2011, 05:40 AM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderwoman View Post
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.
pg 12 post 120. second to last paragraph...

isn't this apologizing without being sorry? The sorry is in the misunderstanding, not what was said.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 01-06-2011, 08:19 AM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 65
Default

Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
pg 12 post 120. second to last paragraph...

isn't this apologizing without being sorry?
No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")

Quote:
The sorry is in the misunderstanding, not what was said.
Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death.

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.
Feel free to destroy the evidence....
__________________
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 01-06-2011, 10:07 AM
FlameKat's Avatar
FlameKat FlameKat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: :P Cautiously looking around this new world that seems to fit...
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olderwoman View Post
Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.




No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")



Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death.

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.
Feel free to destroy the evidence....
If someone has been offended by what you have said, then you were being offensive to that person. It is not your responsibility to 'take the blame' for 'being offensive'. Acknowledging that perhaps what you said had caused someone to feel offended is different. And actually - looking back over all the posts... no-one actually asked you for an apology... that was your assumption.

You were 'taken to task' as it were for refusing to acknowledge that people HAD been offended, even though it had been pointed out - you refused to understand that they had been, or how.

Personally... you laughed that I found offense with a comment of yours I (and others) found sexist. Prior to which you had directed assumptions regarding my character and how I would direct my life following a question which was seeking other's personal opinions or experiences. After I found offense with the sexist comment you proceeded to call me 'delicate and fragile' because I stated that I was serious that I had found the comment offensive.
In your private responses to me you implied I was playing a game in order to get you to apologise. You also stated I was over-sensitive and dramatic.

All that and I still am not hurt, offended - yes. Expecting an apology - no. (Though I did accept the one you gave as you kept mentioning it and you refused to understand it wasn't an apology I was looking for) I was genuinely trying to understand how someone can have so little regard for what other people are saying... and so little care for how their own words affect the message they are sending.

From my perspective you simply do not care, either how you are perceived, or how you effect people.
__________________
Smile! It makes people wonder what you've been up to

Engaged to my sweetheart, WaterWolf

my blog (non-poly) Pearls & Pixiedust


Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 01-06-2011, 11:45 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
Custodian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: new england
Posts: 3,221
Default

I am deeply offended that no one has said anything about my example of apologizing without being sorry:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...&postcount=130

I assume if no one says anything, then no one disagrees with it; but please don't debate about it as though the example was never provided.

that is all.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-06-2011 at 01:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 01-06-2011, 01:39 PM
FlameKat's Avatar
FlameKat FlameKat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: :P Cautiously looking around this new world that seems to fit...
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
I am deeply offended that no one has said anything about my example of apologizing without being sorry:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...&postcount=130

I assume if no one says anything, then no one disagrees with it; but please don't debate about it as though the example was never provided.

that is all.
I didn't mention it because I felt it obvious this is exactly the point being put forward...

However ... WHAT NEONKAOS SAID... with bells on even
__________________
Smile! It makes people wonder what you've been up to

Engaged to my sweetheart, WaterWolf

my blog (non-poly) Pearls & Pixiedust


Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
advice, assumptions, criticism, generalizations, nvc, sniping, wank

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:47 AM.