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  #111  
Old 01-04-2011, 03:17 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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********Originally Posted by Olderwoman
I do want to be honest and genuine. I don't want to walk on eggs or be subject to being expected to be "dishonestly polite."

Again, I am not angry. (Brutally honest maybe, and a bit sarcastic.)

************************************************** ***


Hey Olderwoman,

Sheeshhhhhh - you are in deep already just by picking a member name - you got ageism (Older) and sexism (woman) all wrapped up in one package !

<<GRIN>>

Relax

I also remember reading a defensive comment you made in some post earlier but didn't have time to reply. Something to the effect of being 'too old' for this place etc.

The one thing most of us here really are proud of and appreciate is the fact that we have about every age and walk of life present here. And that's REALLY important ! It helps most of us improve our understanding of the variety of perspectives all these varied people can come from. If you allow it - it's a very bonding experience.

You have your own style, people will learn to understand it and appreciate it. Just be honest and clear. I think it's more dangerous to cloud things by trying to sugar coat them and end up losing the actual meaning.

If someone attacks you (rare) - just let it slide and don't acknowledge it. Like a bee - if you just ignore it it will usually move on.

We welcome your participation !

GS
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  #112  
Old 01-04-2011, 07:25 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Thanks redpepper.

Flamkat:
I have to laugh at you calling my style "abrasive" because I am so much more mellow than I could be or once was. I think I explained to you privately why I don't automatically chirp "I'm sorry" to everyone who feels offended by something I have said.

Allow me to give everyone some background on that life lesson.

One of my X-husbands was always putting me down and making me feel "wrong" and inadequate all the time. I lost my true identity in an effort to "be perfect" according to his specifications. I found myself apologizing all the time for my faults, mistakes and imperfections. Too much of that will literally drive a person crazy. I barely got out of that marriage with my soul, let alone my life. He was a master mind manipulator and even bragged about his power to "mind fuck" his mate.

Well as they say what doesn't kill you often makes you stronger. I learned oh so much from that relationship. It wasn't all bad, I learned how to be strong and assertive and confident.

I have a keen alarm that goes off when people try to manipulate me into saying "I'm sorry" by claiming to be hurt or offended, especially if I was attempting to be helpful. I am ruthless about being responsible for my own feelings and ruthless about holding other people responsible for theirs. When I truly and honestly FEEL sorry for some mistake I made, I will break my neck getting to that person to apologize and subsequently try to change my evil ways and become a better person.

In my life I have also had additional experiences with people who are master manipulating and totally dysfunctional psychopaths. These people should be avoided like the plague. They are equivalent to vampires.

A great book to read is "Games People Play." That book made a lot of people angry because it exposed them and spelled out their manipulation games.

Communication is a challenge for everyone, especially if they are not honest with themselves and others. I do have faults but I like myself a lot. I am a very happy person and I feel joy in my heart no matter what my daily life situation is like. That joy is a spiritual joy of profound freedom and peace. I am not insecure about who I am or what I believe.

I believe in freedom, honesty and self responsibility. I am human and I make mistakes. I try to overcome the tendency to make excuses and blame others but some things are automatic habits that go unnoticed, like statements like

"women don't like to share.."

Yes, I could have overlooked it. But in the aftermath of being scolded yesterday I decided to draw attention to it.

I'm sure that statement is true about some women and in some people's experience. The statement would have been better saying:

"In my experience I have found that most women, especially young women, don't like to share."

Yes this takes a lot more thought and more effort and I will try to put more thought and more effort into making true and more honest statements in any future posts.

I do joke around a lot and I like to use sarcasm sometimes. I will post <advance warning> tags if I feel they are necessary. I do have a sense of humor.

Thank you all for letting me express.
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  #113  
Old 01-04-2011, 08:09 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
********Originally Posted by Olderwoman
I do want to be honest and genuine. I don't want to walk on eggs or be subject to being expected to be "dishonestly polite."

Again, I am not angry. (Brutally honest maybe, and a bit sarcastic.)

************************************************** ***


Hey Olderwoman,

Sheeshhhhhh - you are in deep already just by picking a member name - you got ageism (Older) and sexism (woman) all wrapped up in one package !

<<GRIN>>

Relax
I chose "olderwoman" because I wanted to be upfront about my age. I don't feel old, (except when I do the math LOL)-- and I am in great health.

Also, I've considered looking for a younger man for a relationship-- so I thought the name "olderwoman" might attract some interest. LOL

-- but I would not complain if he were an older guy in relatively good health. (I don't want to be a nurse.)

Quote:
I also remember reading a defensive comment you made in some post earlier but didn't have time to reply. Something to the effect of being 'too old' for this place etc.
What I may have meant was that I was wondering if I was too mature for this place and thinking I might be among a bunch of teenyboppin" swingers lookin" to get laid. LOL LOL ... and perhaps I was attempting to get some sympathy LOL.

Quote:
The one thing most of us here really are proud of and appreciate is the fact that we have about every age and walk of life present here. And that's REALLY important ! It helps most of us improve our understanding of the variety of perspectives all these varied people can come from. If you allow it - it's a very bonding experience.

You have your own style, people will learn to understand it and appreciate it. Just be honest and clear. I think it's more dangerous to cloud things by trying to sugar coat them and end up losing the actual meaning.

If someone attacks you (rare) - just let it slide and don't acknowledge it. Like a bee - if you just ignore it it will usually move on.

We welcome your participation !

GS
Good, that's great to hear, and thanks for the advice!
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  #114  
Old 01-04-2011, 09:01 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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OlderWoman, many of the things you wondered about could have been answered in advance by reading what has already been written on this forum. This may come as a surprise to you, but this forum has existed for two years already without you, and questions such as whether there are married couples in outside long-term committed poly relationships, whether or not this place is a "bunch of teeny-boppers looking to get laid", and so forth, have been covered extensively.

One of my pet peeves on forums is when people come across as though they are not interested in reading what other people have already written, but expect everyone else to fully digest and process what THEY have written just because they decided to join a forum out of the blue. That is how you have come across to me so far. I am not jumping to conclusions out of nowhere because I have read your posts thoroughly and there is no way you would be asking certain things had you spent some time reading older threads and searching on areas that are of interest to you.

Having said that, you seem to have managed to charm some of the people here in spite of yourself.
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  #115  
Old 01-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
OlderWoman, many of the things you wondered about could have been answered in advance by reading what has already been written on this forum. This may come as a surprise to you, but this forum has existed for two years already without you, and questions such as whether there are married couples in outside long-term committed poly relationships, whether or not this place is a "bunch of teeny-boppers looking to get laid", and so forth, have been covered extensively.

One of my pet peeves on forums is when people come across as though they are not interested in reading what other people have already written, but expect everyone else to fully digest and process what THEY have written just because they decided to join a forum out of the blue. That is how you have come across to me so far. I am not jumping to conclusions out of nowhere because I have read your posts thoroughly and there is no way you would be asking certain things had you spent some time reading older threads and searching on areas that are of interest to you.

Having said that, you seem to have managed to charm some of the people here in spite of yourself.
You make some very good points and a totally agree with them.

I sometimes teach painting classes and I run into the exact same problem with my art students. They all want to jump in and start painting and they don't listen to anything the instructor is trying to tell them, and they don't want to spend a half hour watching a painting demonstration tape, and they wonder why their painting looks atrocious and start whining about how they can't paint.

So yes, I see what you are saying.

I also only have 24 hours in a day and I take care of my parents full time. Both of them pretty much need 24 hours care and my father has Alzheimer's. I keep an eye on them with a nanny cam from my computer room.

Yes I should have read everything on this forum before posting but I spend way too much time on the computer already. I plan to cut back on that a lot.

I have made a new goal to spend more time in the real world this 2011, and improve my health, drop some pounds etc., so I will probably back off from my cyber activity A LOT this year.

That will be very hard since my business is on the computer, most of my friends are in cyberspace, I shop via the Internet and I have dozens of websites and several blogs to maintain. Yep that will be very hard.

I just wanted to take a quick dip in this pool to see what the water was like.

I like it. I like it a lot.

Thanks for your point of view.

Last edited by Olderwoman; 01-04-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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  #116  
Old 01-04-2011, 11:38 PM
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FlameKat FlameKat is offline
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Olderwoman, since you brought up your private messages -

you stated quite clearly you would only apologse for offense if you had intended to offend, or if you realised you had been offensive.

I find both those statements by you to be untrue given the fact that if you intended to offend - you wouldn't be sorry about it...

If you realised it - you were told by a number of people you were being offensive, and how... you ignored them and defended your position... what you said largely wasn't the problem - the delivery was.

I agree thoroughly with NeonKaos' comment also.
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  #117  
Old 01-05-2011, 02:25 AM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
Olderwoman, since you brought up your private messages -

you stated quite clearly you would only apologse for offense if you had intended to offend, or if you realised you had been offensive.
TRUE. I also stated that I would not apologize unless I was truly sorry. That would be a phony and dishonest statement for the sake of politeness or manipulation.

Quote:
I find both those statements by you to be untrue given the fact that if you intended to offend - you wouldn't be sorry about it...
That is an assumption.
(How would you know of any such fact about how I might act or feel?)

People have done things intentionally that they later sincerely and deeply regretted. (I know I have.) My statements were not "untrue." (Of course it is your choice to believe or disbelieve anything you want, and I have no problem with that.)

Quote:
...If you realised it - you were told by a number of people you were being offensive, and how... you ignored them and defended your position... what you said largely wasn't the problem - the delivery was.
Had I "ignored them" we would not still be having this conversation. I have no need to defend my position, I just refused to agree with and own their (and your) perceptions of me.

Besides everyone has a right to their opinions, but that does not mean I am obligated to agree with them, (that I was "being offensive.")

I will defend anyone's right to be offended by anything they chose, as long as they don't point the finger at the source and place the blame there. Just because they were offended by something this does not convict me of "being offensive."

Do you believe people should take responsibility for their own reactions? If I were to kill someone in a rage do you think I could get away with it by claiming that they are at fault because "they made me angry"?

Being told by a "number of people" that I am ugly does not make it so and does not mean I should then go around believing I am ugly.

Also, what might offend one person may not offend another.

As I have said before, I believe that people should take responsibility for their own reactions and feelings. I hope this clarifies "my position."
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  #118  
Old 01-05-2011, 08:29 AM
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FlameKat FlameKat is offline
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@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.
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Last edited by FlameKat; 01-05-2011 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Formatting
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  #119  
Old 01-05-2011, 01:10 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.
This.

Enquiring Minds™ want to know.
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  #120  
Old 01-05-2011, 04:39 PM
Olderwoman Olderwoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.
I am glad you are genuinely trying to understand me. I think this will clear things up and please don't take any offense as I attempt to be as frank and honest as possible.

I have given examples of why I don't apologize every time someone claims to be offended or hurt, and I think I have explained the reason for that quite well.

I have said that I believe in taking responsibility for my personal reactions and that I believe that others should do the same. (I don't assume the blame for their feelings.)

I have said that I think if a person is offended that they should not blame the source and that they should search themselves for understanding why they were offended.

I have said that I believe that to apologize insincerely is dishonest and empty or meaningless.

I have said that I believe that what might offend one person may not offend another person.

I have given examples of how people will play manipulative mind games of guilt and blame with each other to extract apologies so they can feel right and powerful --and how I learned about that through my own experience.

Yes, perhaps I "rub you wrong," but if you really want to understand what I mean, try reading what I am saying as it is written without any preconceived ideas and take it at its face value and meaning.

Every situation is different, and I said that if I feel that I have made a mistake, realized it, and was truly sorry and regretful I would "break my neck" (an expression) getting to the person to apologize, THEN I would vow to change my evil ways and become a better person.

I don't say things like "I'm sorry" or "I love you" in a causal manner or just to be polite, or just to manipulate. I say it when I actually feel it sincerely. I take those words seriously. I feel that to use them often and carelessly diminishes their meaning and value.

I might say "I'm sorry you were offended" (if I believed you really were) but I would not say "I'm sorry I offended you." The latter is a guilty plea that implies that I agree with you that I am "being offensive" -which I don't believe.

As it went down I was not sure if you really were offended or if you were just playing the game of trying to extract an apology so you could feel right. I'm still not sure if you were truly offended or just playing the game because you said that it would be a waste of your time to explain to me WHY you were offended. Yet you seem to be spending a lot of time time trying to understand why you were unsuccessful extracting an apology from me. This appears to me that you are merely working hard to understand why the game you play did not work. Of course I could be wrong about that.....

....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended. However, I can't change my evil ways and become a better person because I do not believe I was being offensive. I can only believe that you took offense for your own personal reasons.

In my heart of hearts I was trying to be helpful, and if you were instead not helped but only offended I will admit that my feelings were hurt by that, but I take responsibility for my own feelings, so I don't usually tell people when my feelings are hurt. Its not their fault and It is not my intention to try to extract an apology.

I hope this is clear. I don't know if I can get any clearer.













The simplicity is that I would apologize if I sincerely felt sorry.

Last edited by Olderwoman; 01-05-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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