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  #11  
Old 12-12-2010, 02:52 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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ETA:

I realized it might have came across as though I was calling you "stupid" or something, but if anything, I was calling your MEN'S behaviour "stupid" about the phone.

I added the "and women too" just so it wouldn't seem like I was being sexist. This is not a "men vs. women" issue, it's more like an "adult behaviour vs. childish behaviour" issue. I realize that it doesn't make any of you stupid or evil human beings.

It's ridiculous when the simple, mundane, maintenance-type things we do in every-day life become points of contention just because one is in "a relationship".
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  #12  
Old 12-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by whatamIdoing View Post
then it gets bad... I fell asleep on the couch with B trying to talk to me... then I hear my cell phone get a text... and it's midnight... and it's J. J never texts me... and he asks me to call him...

I call him and he is trying to ask if it's OK if he takes me away from B at this point of OUR saturday night. which was very very respectful... and B misunderstood it... it was hard... he stormed out. I had to hang up on J then calm B down and then I called J back...
Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.

You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)

Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.

Quote:
J needed to vent and rant about the gaming world... it's a valid rant but not on a saturday night at midnight when he's had too much to drink....
Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.

Quote:
If B has the right to contact me when I'm with J (these are J's boundaries btw) then J feels he has the right to contact me when I am with B. This is within reason. I understand why J needed me last night... there were only a few friends he felt close enough to that understood the issue... B understands the issue... but not the need for J to rant to me at midnight....
Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.

I am with neon for the record, a midnight call is never acceptable, unless its a real emergency.

J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.

Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.

I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2010, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
ETA:

I realized it might have came across as though I was calling you "stupid" or something, but if anything, I was calling your MEN'S behaviour "stupid" about the phone.

I added the "and women too" just so it wouldn't seem like I was being sexist. This is not a "men vs. women" issue, it's more like an "adult behaviour vs. childish behaviour" issue. I realize that it doesn't make any of you stupid or evil human beings.

It's ridiculous when the simple, mundane, maintenance-type things we do in every-day life become points of contention just because one is in "a relationship".

I hear you. Sometimes I feel like the only grown up in this mess.

It's so new to all of us...

with B and I being swingers, we always played together... occasionally I would encourage him to "go get her out of your system" never did it occur to me even that there was such a thing as a poly lifestyle.

B and I had our surgeries a little over a year ago. I am at goal and tiny now (so everyone keeps saying even if I dont' see it) down from nearly 300 pounds... B still has about 40 pounds to lose and he feels fat and ugly and unlovable. I know these are his issues and i can't fix him or that... but I can have empathy for his feelings.

but i digress... my point is this... J dated a married woman once before but I'm not sure her marriage was open or she was cheating. J has never been married and he's trying hard to respect B's marital rights as it were. I've never had two partners at once. Not male or female. I am not one to lie or cheat so it was never an option to have a relationship with J behind B's back.

J hates lies as much as I do and we both have said that lying is a reason to end the relationship... so we DO NOT LIE. I don't lie to B either although B has a tendency to have severe cases of "lies of omission" in the past... he is working on that.

Meanwhile B is trying to let this happen for me, J is trying to figure out where he fits into his "married girlfriend's life" and I'm trying to integrate two men into my life without having guidelines, boundaries or rules. it's all so new for ALL of us... NONE of us have ever done anything like this. NONE of us have ever CONSIDERED anything like this.... Playing was one thing. caring about my couple friends was a different thing.. they had a spouse to deal with their mishagosh... but NOW here.. we have a single male (and that is the sticking point for B) that has NO primary...

Yep that's what B keeps saying, his discomfort is mostly about the fact that J is single... He says if J was married he'd feel much better... But J is not married... and he does not have a girlfriend. He would like to find someone to get serious with and settle down with.. and he would prefer her to be able to deal with me as well... so clearly J knows that we are never going to have a primary type of relationship that we will always be secondaries to each other. (I hope i'm using the right words here I'm not sure what I should call it)....

J knows if B continues to not cope and adapt that we will have to end what hasn't even begun... and so do I.... but neither of us want that... and truthfully B does not either... not really. He wants me to be happy... but he can't be happy for me... and I want him to be happy for me.... and with me... and I can't get him to see that being with J makes me so excited to come home when I am done and be with him....

B has said that he will just step back and go away and let me have my thing with J... and I told him that when he tells me these things it sounds like he means he is leaving the marriage and me... and that's not what I want and if he feels he needs to do that then we can end our involvement with the lifestyle... then he says NO and he says that it's not about that.. that it's cause J is SINGLE... and then he says well maybe it's because of how I feel about myself right now and I don't want to end it for us if that's what it is...

He really is trying... I'm just over coddling... I guess cause i know my hubby.. he is very emotionally fragile... and yet the funny thing is, all my friends that know J and my husband as well apparently all told him "we take care of her...." he told me he was WARNED my my friends... "do not hurt her"
seems everyone but ME thinks me fragile emotionally... and yet more and more I am seeing that I am the strong one...

I'm in a free fall here. my head spins with the thoughts of what could be... how NICE this could be for ALL of us. J and I know what it could be and for right now what we want... Yes I'm starting to see already glimmers of what B is afraid of... and yes it worries me a bit...

maybe J is more needy than I thought... Maybe B's radar is accurate and I'm blinded by NRE... and don't see the red flags... I know that if I was single looking for a long term permanent type of primary relationship (read marriage) I would NOT even begin to consider J... but for my pleasant long term diversion... oh hell yeah!

I know that it all seems like so much work right now and reading all this must make some of you think "why is she bothering".... and "oh what a hot mess" and "she doesn't get it"... and maybe I don't... and maybe it is..

but I know me... and I know I have to play this out....
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  #14  
Old 12-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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J may need his own primary.If he is involved with you and wants the "real" gf, he may be barking up the wrong tree. He has to realize he will be and is a secondary for a while at least.

I think some questions need to be asked

1 - Is J really non-monogamous
2 - if so, does he feel the need for a primary or understand what it means to be a secondary to someone.
3 - if not, then is he expecting you to be two peoples primaries. Thats where we get into murky waters. We do see people who can navigate the multiple primary scenario, but most run into plain old timing issues. If J wants a real, true to life primary, and you are busy with husband and kids, and family. As mono on this site has said, he finds it more reasonable to be someones secondary, as a monogamous person, because he has had all the marriage fixings before (please mono feel free to correct me)

Quote:
I know that it all seems like so much work right now and reading all this must make some of you think "why is she bothering".... and "oh what a hot mess" and "she doesn't get it"... and maybe I don't... and maybe it is..
I am not . Honestly we have seen bigger messes and lesser messes. Relationships by their very nature are hard. Bringing in more people extends that complication further. Non-monogamy is not the easiest relationship structure to be in. Its one you really have to believe in for yourself.

Honestly, this has been what, a few weeks right? I think there is a dose of patience required on everyones behalf. You are far from a critical breaking point. Maybe scale back the pace at which you guys are moving. I think B just needs to catchup. For the record, a good rule of thumb, if you see him catching up, don't make another leap, just stand there for a bit with him, enjoy the settling a bit, and then move forward. If he feels like you are doing this together he might make a lot more progress.
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  #15  
Old 12-12-2010, 05:04 PM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.
yes! you are correct. this did upset him as he told his friend on the computer (and he showed me).. and you are all right! I did handle that very badly. of course both B and I were working on minimal to no amounts of sleep from the night before.. and to be honest... J's text was to see if I COULD call and he would have been fine had I NOT.... so the truth is I handled it very very badly... I disrespected my husband.... since my phone NEVER comes to my bedroom texting me at any time is acceptable... if i'm not there I don't get it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)
it will get better... your pointing out to me how I was wrong is very helpful and very much will contribute to my handling it better next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.
yep we have debriefings as it were... lots and lots and LOTS of talk time both B and J seem to need that right now.. as we find our footing and our places in this relationship quagmire... we are renegotiating over and over almost on an hourly basis... and I see B moving towards more and more acceptance... he even said to me this morning... "every time my comfort level starts to rise something like last night happens and pushes it right back down"... WOW! I HEAR YOU BABE... he asked me to please text him often today so he knows I care. I can do that. and I will.. he is so really trying



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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.
well it could have waited till this morning/afternoon but it's actually something that is pretty important to all of us... but still it could have waited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.
yep that's exactly what J was saying on Friday night that after a certain time it's dead phone time... and yet last night he did not respect that.. of course he and I have not set those hours yet... and to be honest with him having so little face time access to me I do feel he should have a bit more leeway than B when it comes to phone access.... but truthfully unless his house had burned down or his mom had died a midnight phone call was unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.
yes J was being a jerk last night... and i handled it so badly... I did. and I hurt B and lost all the progress we had made that day....

and yes B does want to try... he truly does... and I'm trying to find my lost little way here... we will talk about this more when he gets home tonite and hopefully when I talk to J this afternoon he is ready to hear that drunken midnight phone calls or texts are no longer acceptable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.
yep this is true... and B feels he is not interesting to me or smart enough for me or educated enough for me... and it's not true. I don't care about those things.... hard to get B to see it however... B dropped out of 9th grade. he has never been able to pass the GED... he's tried several times before he met me... he thinks he's stupid.. he's not.. he's just not educated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari

and that is a GREAT way to present it to them... both of them do RPG although I do not...

thank you so very much for all your time and help it's truly appreciated!
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  #16  
Old 12-12-2010, 05:24 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by whatamIdoing View Post
yes J was being a jerk last night... and i handled it so badly... I did. and I hurt B and lost all the progress we had made that day....
Eeeeep I mean B in that statement, damn alphabet soup hahaha...sorry..
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  #17  
Old 12-12-2010, 05:39 PM
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Can you just turn off your phone after a certain time?
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  #18  
Old 12-12-2010, 05:53 PM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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quoting this way since i can't seem to quote the actual texts for some reason

Quote:
Eeeeep I mean B in that statement, damn alphabet soup hahaha...sorry..
well J was being a jerk too... B has NOT cornered the market on jerkiness... I wish I could come up with better references for them... both are very private and I don't want to have any searchables for them... so initials it must be...

Quote:
Can you just turn off your phone after a certain time?
yes I could. but I have an emotionally disabled adult child so i make sure he can always reach me as needed.... truthfully my phone stays downstairs and we sleep upstairs... so had we gone to bed already we never would have heard the text or gotten the emails.

again I see now how badly I handled this... it was just a total shock to me that J would text me or ask for a phone call..

and to be honest... now that I think about this.. HUGE red flag for me... HUGE.... OMG I got an email from him when I got up this morning that he sent around 4 am that said :

Quote:
wanted to talk to YOU first.....

and my spidey sense tingled... why am I suddenly the magical must talk to YOU first person.... part of me likes that as an ego stroke, part of me is scared.

he was mixing things up last night... talking about resiging his GM position (from our IRL gaming that we do which is how I met him and since next year I am the administrarive lead for the con I am technically involved in his choice... makes it awkward for me ) and OUR relationship all at the same time. Part of why I got him off the phone rather quickly was that he was making little to no sense to me... but the thing that concerned me was that he prides himself on being anti-social and not needing anyone and here he is at midnight... NEEDING and WANTING to talk to ME.... deep sigh... I like J. A LOT. He has his issues... don't we all... He likes ME... he told me he finds me "interesting"... and I know in HIS world and mind that is the highest compliment he can pay to anyone...

Last night set my guard up a few notches...
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2010, 03:41 PM
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B is having a hard hard hard hard time....

My piss-poor handling of Saturday night's drunken texting and phone call is truly impacting negatively on how B is coping.

B has "decided" he no longer wants to be in the lifestyle... but when I say ok he backs down. Then he says "well I'm not going to do anything but you have to do what you have to do with J and I'm not going to stop you" so I say that I won't do that and he says that he will leave me if I don't do it because he knows if he asks me not to I will resent him.

He really does NOT want me to have an ongoing Poly relationship with J.
Even if my relationship with J impacts minimally on B. <insert banging head here>

He is torn. He says he can't deal with my sleeping with J then he turns around and says "just go fuck him and get it over with"... like that's going to make me not want to be with J... If I don't sleep with him I'd be fine with that... truly. I don't want to not be friends with J...at the minimum.

but watching B hurt... it's killing me.

He started this morning with a text to me that i got after the gym.. it said "make a date with J for the 31st"

The 31st is our wedding anniversary...

when I got a hold of him and asked i was told "it's my anniversary present to you".... UGH! if you want to give me a good present let me go see him on Presidents weekend when you are going away....

he just keeps going back and forth and back and forth... the minute I say OK we can end all our extra curricular activities he balks and says "well maybe not" BUT he wants me to NOT see J. It's all about J. he says why couldn't I pick someone BETTER... why couldn't I find someone who treats me better... J is what he is... a shithead boy (even at 37 I think him a boy for many reasons)

IF B can't deal I will end it with J... at least the physical part... I doubt J and I would stop being friends and I know J doesn't want that and I know B doesn't consider that a threat....

the problem is... the sleeping with J is the least of B's problems.... B can't even see that the issue is not that I want to sleep with J... the issue for me truly if I was B would have to be that I'm NOT willing to STOP having contact with J... because with J it's about his brain... it's a good connection...

I talked to J last night for an hour and I know he was in a bad place Saturday night with the drunken texts and emails and phone calls.. but after our nearly 1 hour talk last night I feel much better... and I'm learning to interpret him when he's like that... which helps. and B was not home yet from racing so that helps too...

I don't want to lie to B... but hearing that I'm talking to J or planning things with J makes B feel so insecure and unloved. He is so afraid of losing me...

I don't want him to hurt and yet I don't want to give up J and if I could have my way totally I would have B as my primary and J as my secondary and have everyone be happy and friendly. B does not want me to have an ongoing long term relationship with J... J made it clear he has no idea how long we will be together... and I'm ok with that... I think.... because I think we will play it out till it does NOT work for us any more... the problem will come in IF we have to artificially end it because B can't cope... Yes I am willing to go slow. I even told B we can keep it right where it is until he's ready for me to move forward... I told him I can have a relationship with J and not sleep with him... (and it's true I can and I would) but B is totally fixated on the fact that I WANT to sleep with J... umm ya know what... I like the cuddles I like watching TV with our legs all piled up and his arm across my lap my head on his shoulder... just talking watching tv and just BEING...

I'm screwed.
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  #20  
Old 12-13-2010, 03:55 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I hate to say this, but it does not sound like your marriage is ready for poly.

The prevailing wisdom is that a relationship must be strong and healthy in order for either partner to become involved with someone else, otherwise the existing problems will get worse and not better.

You and your husband need to work things out within your OWN relationship before EITHER of you can be in another.

It sounds like swinging was working alright for the both of you. Is there some reason you can't simply go back to "just sex" with other partners?
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