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Old 08-22-2009, 04:23 PM
zyx5 zyx5 is offline
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Default newbie, is this polyamory or are we just wierd?

Hello everyone,

This forum seems like it has many compassionate, knowledgeable, considerate, and non-judgmental members. I/we appreciate that. Here is my/our situation.

We have been married 28 years and lived together for 30. We are as much in love today as we were when we got married. I am a very lucky man. Our kids are and have been out of the house for a few years. We have embraced our empty nest with open arms. For many years I have found I enjoyed reading erotica and especially found stories about loving wives exciting. I refer to a loving wife as one who is married but makes love with another man other than her husband. A few years ago I shared this kink or whatever one wishes to call it with my wife. At first she thought I was weird. I would leave a story here or there and she would read them. Over time she started sharing this fantasy. Over time we discovered that when we would make love and talk about her fantasy lover our passion would ignite.

Well as time went on my wonderful wife entered into peri-menopause. Her libido crashed and our numerous romps in the bed room diminished. I tried all sorts of things to get her in the mood. She started drinking more to help her sleep but that began a vicious cycle of bad sleep patterns and an even more diminished libido. I started leaving the computer on with a loving wife story I would find on the net. She started to look forward to these stories. Our love making would improve for a brief time.

Then fast forward to this year. One snowy day my wife met a man from out of town while on the ski lift. She felt an immediate attraction to him and skied with him for a couple of hours. They had a lot in common and my wife ended up leaving the hill without any contact info for him. He was single. She knew where he lived and worked and later that week searched him out and found an email for him and emailed him. Her libido was reborn. We were making passionate love every day. Three weeks went by with no response, then she received an email back from her new friend. They started emailing on a regular basis. Her libido was in full bloom and I was happy about it. She shared some of this with me. She started fantasizing about meeting him somewhere. I found myself encouraging her to try and realize it. They planned on meeting for a weekend at a ski area equidistant to each other.

We were talking and communicating about the whole thing constantly and making love every day. Then her new friend just could not understand why I her husband was encouraging her and his interest waned. They did not ever get together and eventually quit communicating.

Fast forward to today. I loved the way my wife re-blossomed. Together we talked endlessly about our feelings. She ended up finding a nice man on line who was in a very poor marriage. They became friendly online and she made him feel good about himself. Over 3-4 months they emailed daily and started learning about each other. He knew about me and my approval of their relationship. He invited her to go on a short trip. Now we had to put up or shut up and so we decided she would go and meet him.

Prior to the trip, we each wrote down what we wanted, expected, and all other things about this meeting. I put down a list of several things like guidelines for her/them to follow and it was understood that he had to abide by these rules if this relationship were to continue. Three of the rules were that there would be no intercourse on the first night, that protection would be used if at some time they did engage in intercourse, and if asked my wife would tell me everything.

Well the first night went very well, he was read the rules as we had written them and promised my wife he would gladly abide. They engaged in some heavy petting, but slept in separate rooms. My wife relayed this to me the next day via cell phone. I am going to refer to her friend as TK. This was a business trip for TK and so he was out during the day. The next night went badly in that they enjoyed a late but very nice dinner and got back to the room and TK basically passed out from exhaustion. The next morning he apologized profusely but left my wife in a state of despair. The next two evening were worse. His wife called and all of sudden he felt a tremendous guilt about the situation he was in. I will add that TK had not had intimate relations with his wife in well over a year. TK professed early on and again on this trip that he loved his wife and did not want to destroy his marriage.

Long story short my wife was angered, hurt, but felt his pain and wanted to be his friend. The fourth and last night TK ended up coming in to her bedroom and they layed together and talked for a couple of hours. They ended up cuddling and came close to making love but fell short due to the lack of having a condom handy. Had either had one it would have probably been inevitable.

Well my wife came home and shared all of this with me. She did lie about some of it at first but I know her well enough to know when she is not telling the truth. So all the truth came out. She at first did not want to continue this relationship but after a few days and a few emails from TK, she decided that they could be friends. Well over the course of a month, this relationship has become a little more than that. They have decided on another trip and this time they both do want to get intimate. My wife and I have been having many conversations talking about our feelings, where this is all going, trying to set guidelines and limitations, and engaging in the best sex of our very sex filled marriage.

About me, I have recently learned the word compersion and its definition fits me perfectly. I do go thru a roller coaster of feelings about all of this. I am completely heterosexual and have no desire to engage in MFM realtionship. I do have fantasies about a FMF threesome but my wife too is heterosexual as well so don't see that happening.

My wife is a very sexy woman who takes care of herself. She is a great athlete and maintains a very athletic body. She is smart, funny, independent, and beautiful. What I find is her sexiest attribute is her confidence. That has also waned as she has gotten older and plummeted when she became peri-menopausal. But now she feels like a 20 year old again. She feels confident, desirable, sexy, has a lot of energy, and sometimes we will make love 3-4 times in a single day. She thinks she better do it now because she might loose it. We talk about all of our feelings and she has confided in me that she likes TK as a friend, but would like to have intimate relations with him for awhile. She has limited her drinking and found her sleep patterns have become more normal. We attribute the sleep disorder to her hot flashes and other p-m symptoms.

So my questions to all of you wise people who have lived this or variations of this lifestyle, are these:
1) Is this polyamory on my wife's part and am I just a pervert for wanting this for her? I don't have a huge desire to partake in intimate relations with anyone other than my wife. At least not now, hopefully this will not change because my wife does not think she could handle it.
2) The only strong jealousy I feel about all of it is when she spends more time communicating with TK than she does with me. I struggle a little with insecurity about maybe she will fall in love with him, that he might be a better lover, etc., but I really get annoyed if she emails him 15 times a day and spends more time planning their next rendezvous than her planning anything with me. (and yes we have talked about this often but have yet to find a real resolution).
3) TK's wife does not know about any of this and that bothers both my wife and I. In an ideal world we would hope that TK explain to her that he has a friend with benefits and tell her about it. Honestly we do not think this will happen and my wife/we do not want to be the catalyst that sends his marriage over the edge. This is probably our biggest fear. One of our rules is that if his wife does not except this FWB idea, then it will be over between my wife and him. The other things I think we can blunder our way thru and communicate our way out of.
4) I know that if this loving wife lifestyle continues, (is what we are doing more of a swinging lifestyle?) eventually something will happen where our adult kids will wonder what on earth are we doing. Why is mom making all of these trips without dad and who is this new friend she is spending time with?
I am not about lying to anyone. I would much rather deal with the truth and suffer the consequence than live in guilt about living a lie.
5) My wife and I look forward to spending the rest of our lives together. We are best friends and respect each other immensely. Are we messing up a truly wonderful relationship by engaging in this consensual extra marital activity?
6) Lastly my wife worries that once she enters into full blown meno-pause, her libido will diminish again. This scares her and is one of the reasons she has jumped into the fire we have now found ourselves in. She loves the way she feels about her self and her body now. I love it.

Sorry for such a long post. From all that I have read, it seems in order to give advice, you must understand the whole story. Thanks in advance for taking the time. I/we look forward to what you have to share.

zyx5
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:59 PM
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River River is offline
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3) TK's wife does not know about any of this and that bothers both my wife and I. In an ideal world we would hope that TK explain to her that he has a friend with benefits and tell her about it. Honestly we do not think this will happen and my wife/we do not want to be the catalyst that sends his marriage over the edge. This is probably our biggest fear. One of our rules is that if his wife does not except this FWB idea, then it will be over between my wife and him. The other things I think we can blunder our way thru and communicate our way out of.
There's so much material in this post that I won't attempt to respond to all of it at once. But I did want to comment on the quoted passage, at least, for now.

TK's wife is apparently not sexually available to TK, and hasn't been for, apparently, at least a year. Who knows what the reasons for this may be? But, likewise, who could blame TK for wanting to continue to enjoy sex even if his wife doesn't share that desire?

In my experience, there are a LOT of good couples out there, very loving couples, strong couples, who are seriously not compatible sexually -- often because one or the other has lost interest in sex. Sex isn't at the heart of a good marriage or partnership, loving is. And so I don't think folks who are sexually incompatible must necessarily split up their marriage or partnership--certainly not in every case.

But the wife who witholds sex from her husband, or vice versa, should not threaten his/her partner with an unwanted divorce for seeking sexual pleasure where it IS available -- outside. That's plain lunacy! Sexual pleasure is a very important part of human life for healthy people, and being sexually rejected by your partner/wife/husband can be an extremly difficult thing to endure. Or even impossible.

TK and wife should probably seek couples/sex counceling.

Finally, polyamory is, by definition, honest and open with regard to all persons involved. If someone's not being told what's going on, it isn't polyamory.
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Last edited by River; 08-22-2009 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:13 PM
Quath Quath is offline
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Welcome to the forum!

I can give some brief responses from my point of view:
1) It sounds like she wants to be in a relationship with him. So that is more on the polyamory side. Someone once said that monogamy is a subset of polyamory. In a sense, it is a label. If you are supporting ethical nonmonogamy and multiple loves, I think you could classify yourself as polyamorous if you want to. Though in practice, many people would consider you monogamous in a polyamorous relationship.
2) It sounds like you are dealing with NRE (New Relationship Energy). She just needs to be aware of this and try to tone it down a little around you. And you can realize this is a natural response to a new relationship, not a relfection on you.
3) I think JRiverMartin did a good response to this. The truth tends to have a way of getting out. I think TK should try to be honest with his wife so she can deal with it.
4) I think that once the kids are out of the house, that you should not have to pretend to be other than you are. You can just say she is with a friend. If they keep questioning, then let them know you are ok with what happens. But I think that since you know your kids better than I do, you will have to judge this.
5) I think as long as you are honest with each other, you will have many years of fun and frolic. It is hard to guess at long term consequences of your actions. Who knows? Maybe if you didn't persue it, you two would grow more distant?
6) I think menopause affects everyone differently. This may be something that a doctor will be better able to answer.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:26 AM
zyx5 zyx5 is offline
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J and Quath,

Thank you for the insight. We do hope there is more from you and other members. I apologize if I put this long post in the introduction forum. Maybe it belongs elsewhere, just not sure. We are new to this and fumbling along the way.

Yes you are correct about women (and their spouses) dealing with meno-pause differently. My wife has tried discussing it with her doctor of 26 years but all he wants to do is prescribe meds. Many of her close friends have and are going thru it. They do discuss certain aspects of it but she is uncomfortable asking them about how libido has affected them before, during, and after. Her libido has been lost for awhile but now it is like a force 5 hurricane. We are social but not yet comfortable discussing this topic at a social dinner table. So we are both just curious how it has affected others that have been through it.

One thing we have observed recently is how socially acceptable it is for a spouse to cheat on their wife/husband. You hear about it almost everyday in the news, at work, church, or other social circles. But allowing and being full aware your spouse have a relationship, intimate, friendly or otherwise with another person is so taboo. Why is that?

One last question, if TK's wife does not know about this, and he is afraid to bring it up, then does that mean we are not polyamorous? Do we not belong?

Thanks, zyx5
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:40 AM
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One thing we have observed recently is how socially acceptable it is for a spouse to cheat on their wife/husband. You hear about it almost everyday in the news, at work, church, or other social circles. But allowing and being full aware your spouse have a relationship, intimate, friendly or otherwise with another person is so taboo. Why is that?
My opinion? Most people neither know how to, nor are they willing to, investigate social norms carefully. They accept social norms as if they decended from Heaven. "You just live by the rules -- you don't make them." And yet, most people aren't really well-suited for twenty, thirty or fifty years of monogamy..., and yet many of these same folks are unwilling to say so to their parners/lovers/husbands/wives.... So they simply avoid the whole issue, by not saying a word about any of it. They instead "cheat" -- meaning that they lie about how they are really living. They don't want to lose or abandon their committed relationships, but they are unwilling to commit to openness and honesty about all of the above.

Polyamorists have a dramatically different notion of what commitment is, what fidelity is, even what love is. We're no less committed, no less loving, no less loyal, however.

"Cheating" is mainly an avoidence of truth and reality.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:06 AM
Mark1npt Mark1npt is offline
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Tremendous insight and advice on here so far from James and Quath. My take is your wife may indeed be poly, if she ends up in a loving intimate relationship with this TK, if it's just a FWB deal, then she's just swinging......you may indeed be great at compersion, or you may just have a fetish. TK is not poly, as he is cheating on his wife.

Libido wanes for a variety of reasons, physical (like menopause/andropause), emotional (pick a reason!)......and of course for painful reasons, like abuse, neglect, etc......I wonder what TK's reason is?
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:39 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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Originally Posted by zyx5 View Post
One thing we have observed recently is how socially acceptable it is for a spouse to cheat on their wife/husband. You hear about it almost everyday in the news, at work, church, or other social circles. But allowing and being full aware your spouse have a relationship, intimate, friendly or otherwise with another person is so taboo. Why is that?
I think people are just comfortable with the idea. They understand the implications and the social norms. So pretty much what JRiverMartin said. It is hard for people to challenge their assertions about behavior.

Quote:
One last question, if TK's wife does not know about this, and he is afraid to bring it up, then does that mean we are not polyamorous? Do we not belong?
Well, by definition, polyamory just means "many loves." It is usually further refined to consenting relationships amone adults with full knowledge and consent of all involved. However, maybe that is the goal. Many people get into polyamory after an affair or think an affair is the only way to deal with their feelings of love for another. I think many polyamory people have made mistakes along the way.

Maybe it means you and your wife are poly, but her boyfriend is not?
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:12 AM
Fidelia Fidelia is offline
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Hi XYZ5. Wlecome to the forum!


Quote:
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1) Is this polyamory on my wife's part and am I just a pervert for wanting this for her?
If your wife wants to participate in an open, honest and loving relationship with a third or more partners, she may be polyamorous. You, my friend, are not poly. You are a hotwife fan. No judgement implied, but there it is.
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2) The only strong jealousy I feel about all of it is when she spends more time communicating with TK than she does with me. I struggle a little with insecurity about . . .
A certain amount of jealousy is to be expected. Don't be afraid to talk to your wife. Tell her what you're feeling and ask for what you want. Keep in mind that this is all new to her too.

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3) TK's wife does not know about any of this and that bothers both my wife and I.
It should bother you! I see this as a red flag. TK isn't interested in an open, honest relationship, he is committing adultery by lying to his wife so that he can slip around on her. What makes you think he'll show more honesty and integrity with your wife than he's shown with his own?

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4) (is what we are doing more of a swinging lifestyle?)
Yes, it is. See hotwife note above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zyx5 View Post
5) My wife and I look forward to spending the rest of our lives together. We are best friends and respect each other immensely. Are we messing up a truly wonderful relationship by engaging in this consensual extra marital activity?
Not necessarily. There are certain risks, as with any major life change. But if the two of you commit to maintaining open communication between all involved parties, and commit to keeping your relationship top priority, there is no reason it can't work. And you know, if you run into trouble, you can decide to return to monogamy.

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6) Lastly my wife worries that once she enters into full blown meno-pause, her libido will diminish again. This scares her and is one of the reasons she has jumped into the fire we have now found ourselves in. zyx5
I hear Amberen works.

Best of luck to you and your loving wife. I hope you find what you're looking for.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:35 PM
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Thanks for sharing your story- I hope this forum helps you sort out your situation to everyone's benefit.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:37 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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J and Quath,

One thing we have observed recently is how socially acceptable it is for a spouse to cheat on their wife/husband. You hear about it almost everyday in the news, at work, church, or other social circles. But allowing and being full aware your spouse have a relationship, intimate, friendly or otherwise with another person is so taboo. Why is that?

One last question, if TK's wife does not know about this, and he is afraid to bring it up, then does that mean we are not polyamorous? Do we not belong?

Thanks, zyx5
Welcome to the boards.

Cheating on a spouse isn't really acceptable here in the US. One of the challenges presented to poly folk is the notion that we cheat on our spouses. One is cheating if a), there is an agreement to not have other relationships, and b), if one is engaging in another relationship in violation of that agreement.

For poly folk, cheating can occur when the specific agreements made are violated in some fashion. If one has a relationship in secret, for example, one isn't engaging in honest, open relationships--which is a foundation of polyamory. If your agreement involves not dating crack whores and you gets involved with a crack whore, well, then, you're breaking your agreement and cheating.

If TK's wife doesn't know about the relationship, then TK is nothing other than a cheating spouse. You know about your wife's involvement with TK, so the two of you are prima facie poly.

Now, you being mono in a poly arrangement isn't a problem. (Indeed, read the tale of our member, Mono!) Whether you're poly due to a fetish or due to relationship inclination matters not, I think; as long as you allow for partners to have other relationships, you're doing the poly thing.

That your wife is a bit insecure about the possibility of you having another relationship also doesn't rule out poly. She's engaged in multiple relationships and is still feeling her way around the experience. In a couple of years she may have no problem with you having another and may even try to find somebody for you. You never can tell.

And even if you never have another relationship, as long as you're supportive of your wife in her other relationship(s), you're poly as best I can tell. Your wife appears to be interested in having a relationship with somebody else, instead of just other sex partners, so that removes you from swinging (your interest in having a loving wife would work just as well swinging; her interest in relationships is what makes it poly).
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