Advice for another poly in a mono marriage

I'm very grateful to you all for your advice, and for the links to further readings on mono/poly relationships. I hope to learn from it as I think this dilemma through.

Certainly you're all correct that we shouldn't bring children into such a situation. To be clear, it isn't yet time for another IVF round. She wants to try to do it the regular way. It's very unlikely to work, and at the time that I agreed, I wanted to show her that I am not retaliating against her. I will do this one thing for her, no more.

The ideas of white-knighting and cautions against martyrdom are very valuable. Indeed, my wife is not a damsel in distress, and would be able to take care of herself were we to separate. But, given the way that she has taken care of me, I do feel that I owe her care in return, not because I am in some kind of debt to her, but because I love her and know that she loves me. When I wake up some mornings, I look at her sleeping face, and I feel unable to contemplate hurting her knowingly.

I tried to have a conversation with her a few evenings ago, but I was very anxious, and I could see that, while she started out calm, she became anxious as the conversation progressed, and eventually broke into tears. It just breaks my heart. Once again, she brought up the idea that I wouldn't have these desires if we could have penetrative sex, and if we could have children. I assured her, as I have so many times, that this was not the case. But her point is, how can I prove that to her?

I told her that I didn't want to convert her to my position, and I didn't have it in me to put separation on the table. Under these circumstances, how could we regain trust and the ability to be intimate. She suggested cuddling more regularly (fair enough), doing more things together, and sharing our fantasies (I don't feel safe any more doing that). In other words, she wants me to come around to monogamy. She says that, two years ago, when we talked about opening up the marriage, she didn't realize that I was polyamorous. I think what she means is that she had thought that additional partners were something I would be titillated by on occasion, but not something I needed. I get the sense that she would be alright with random one-night stands on my part, but not with the emotionally intense loving relationships that I need. Having realized what I am, and understanding that I am not the person she married, I think it will take her time to get used to her new perception of me.

Given that the conversation wasn't productive, I've decided to think a bit more, and work on myself a bit more before talking to her again. My wife has a very strong will, especially in comparison to me. I think that I feel a lot more guilt than I'd realized, and it makes me lack confidence when speaking to her. I very quickly backtrack, and want to give in to what she wants because I see that she is angry, hurt, and in pain. I feel guilty about hurting her last year. But, moreover, I feel ashamed of my feelings for specific people, and I feel afraid of the judgment of friends and family.

Moreover, while most of you are very realistically telling me that I must separate, at the moment I just don't feel that I can do it. Some of you seem to have been in extremely painful marriages in the past. In our case, as one of you has said, we're not going at it hammer and tongs. We have a stable relationship with few major conflicts. It feels very stable, we're able to get our work done and support one another. In the past year of non-communication, I can honestly say that I have been mostly happy. It's just that there is no passion, no intimacy, and right now we aren't even communicating properly, because the truth is so hard to hear. Is happiness more important, or truth? I think I know the answer, but it is hard.

I must be sure before I take an irreversible step. Remember that we haven't been talking openly for a year, and, even if I wanted to, it would not be kind to just say, "Let's separate!" Don't I have to do everything I possibly can before taking that step? If so, then what can I do? To be fair to Kevin, I don't think that he even really advised me to talk my wife into polyamory. If you read his post carefully, I think that he presented it as a bad option before asking me whether it was really something I ought to do. I latched onto this bad option myself because, honestly, I'm desperate to avoid the pain of separating from someone I love so much. But, as you can see from my description of my conversation, I am not trying to convince her, and so, I'm stuck.

Of course, separating is not a decision to make overnight.

Your wife treats you in the way you let her treat you. You become submissive, and feel guilty for asserting yourself, speaking up for your own personal needs and desires.

I didn't separate from my ex husband on a whim. I did individual therapy for 3 years, once a week for a year, and then gradually going less and less until I felt more in touch with myself.

We can lose ourselves in marriage. In my case I had also had 3 children in 5 years, and had to sacrifice much of myself to care for them. This is just what parenting means. But once they got older I had more time to think, wait a minute, I don't feel emotionally safe with my husband!

You're also tangled up in this TTC thing. Your wife wants you to have penetrative sex with her now, to make a baby, when there is no emotional intimacy between you, and you haven't had sex in a year? Why would you cheapen yourself like that? That sounds horrifying.

Back to my story-- we had a lot in common; we got along in many ways. We had some great times, traveling, concerts, buying a house, having babies... But his low self esteem and jealousy, and my tendency to get crushes, was always the elephant in the room. We drew further apart. I felt like a bird in a gilded cage.

When I started to act on my poly desires (only online) he was aware, and then he tried to treat me better! I think he finally realized how desirable I was, and he got competitive with my online friends. Buying me flowers, taking me on long weekend getaways, giving me sex that was admittedly great. But it was too little, too late. We'd had an 8 year period prior to this where he barely gave me the time of day.

He even apologized for his mistreatment of me, but again, it was pointless. I'd suffered too much. I needed a whole different kind of life. We'd met when I was 19. I was now 52! I'd grown up and gotten over him.

So I learned to respect myself more. I became empowered. My therapist was great. We also did couples counseling with her, and my h went to just one year of individual therapy with her. But she "fired" him because he became stuck. (He had issues from his childhood that had led to his low self esteem, but he refused to work on them.) I knew our relationship had hit a dead end.

We parted amicably. He met a woman who has similar issues to him, with low self esteem, etc. Ha! I guess they're happy.

I met a woman almost right away (we are both bisexual), on OK Cupid, who had been poly all her life. She had many similar qualities to my ex, the things I did like about him, plus so much more. I'd never loved a partner before, the way I love her. And her love for me is amazing, steady, sparkling, joyous. She supports me in many ways, in all the ways I need, not just some ways, as my ex h did. We have less money than I would have had with my ex, but I'd rather have true deep love than that kind of money.

I guess, like you, I had tried to "do everything I could," to Save the Marriage. But that shouldn't include shrinking yourself, bending yourself into a pretzel, submitting to their wishes. I did things I hoped would prop up his self esteem. But that has to come from within. He didn't love himself enough. I couldn't love him enough. He couldn't feel my love or appreciate my care, since he didn't love himself or truly feel himself worthy of love. It was weird.

I feel I kind of wasted some good years of my life, pointlessly and futilely trying to do "everything I could."

I tried to have a conversation with her a few evenings ago, but I was very anxious, and I could see that, while she started out calm, she became anxious as the conversation progressed, and eventually broke into tears. It just breaks my heart. Once again, she brought up the idea that I wouldn't have these desires if we could have penetrative sex, and if we could have children. I assured her, as I have so many times, that this was not the case. But her point is, how can I prove that to her?

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Well that's the thing. You can't. You told her the truth and she chose not to believe you. In order to accept it she has to examine why she believes what she does. I'm sure a lot of it results from the social conditioning surrounding monogamy.

I realize it is frustrating, but some people will never let go of monogamy. Elsewhere in your post you said you need to do all you can to save your marriage. What can you do exactly? You can't magically get her to accept poly. About all you can do is simply accept being monogamous.

I tried to have a conversation with her a few evenings ago, but I was very anxious, and I could see that, while she started out calm, she became anxious as the conversation progressed, and eventually broke into tears. It just breaks my heart. Once again, she brought up the idea that I wouldn't have these desires if we could have penetrative sex, and if we could have children. I assured her, as I have so many times, that this was not the case. But her point is, how can I prove that to her?

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Exactly. If she takes things personally and makes it be about her endo and PIV issues? How can you guys talk about anything else?

Does she have an answer? What do you need to do to for her to stop that behavior and actually listen to YOU in YOUR context? 20 jumping jacks? A lap around the house?

Rather than make it be about her and her endo?

You might try asking "I want to say something. Could you please be willing to listen all the way across and then repeat what I said back to me in your own words so I know you got it how I mean it?"

I told her that I didn't want to convert her to my position, and I didn't have it in me to put separation on the table. Under these circumstances, how could we regain trust and the ability to be intimate. She suggested cuddling more regularly (fair enough), doing more things together, and sharing our fantasies (I don't feel safe any more doing that). In other words, she wants me to come around to monogamy.

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Since you know you cannot change her beliefs and you don't seem to want monogamy... what do YOU need to change YOU? And become willing to put separation on the table? Or even just see a conversation THROUGH even if she cries? Hell, lay in the Kleenex or beach towels, both cry a river. But have the conversation.

How do you know you have done all you can, if you can't even have this conversation?

Could you live with monogamy so it's Closed enough for her? If she agreed to Open enough for you so you can talk to her about your poly thoughts and feelings without her having a cow about it? Or taking it like some personal failure that you are poly? Or making it be about PIV?

She says that, two years ago, when we talked about opening up the marriage, she didn't realize that I was polyamorous. I think what she means is that she had thought that additional partners were something I would be titillated by on occasion, but not something I needed. I get the sense that she would be alright with random one-night stands on my part, but not with the emotionally intense loving relationships that I need. Having realized what I am, and understanding that I am not the person she married, I think it will take her time to get used to her new perception of me.

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So she thought she could deal with Open, casual sex stuff. But not poly, have an actual long term GF stuff. Fair enough. People think they can deal with what whatever they think they can handle. At least that's honest, right?

Given that the conversation wasn't productive, I've decided to think a bit more, and work on myself a bit more before talking to her again. My wife has a very strong will, especially in comparison to me. I think that I feel a lot more guilt than I'd realized, and it makes me lack confidence when speaking to her.

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What do you feel guilty ABOUT? I notice you say you feel it a lot, but about WHAT?

Like...

"I am responsible/in charge of ______. I feel guilty because I did/didn't do ______. And now ____ happened."

What would you put? To me it reads like you feel bad because you believe it is your job to make her happy. So when she cries, it's your fault. You sound super enmeshed or entangled.

Could these help you any?

https://coda.org/

https://medium.com/@PolyamorySchool/the-most-skipped-step-when-opening-a-relationship-f1f67abbbd49

I very quickly backtrack, and want to give in to what she wants because I see that she is angry, hurt, and in pain. I feel guilty about hurting her last year. But, moreover, I feel ashamed of my feelings for specific people, and I feel afraid of the judgment of friends and family.

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All you did was have some drinks, hug a colleague, and tell them they are cute. What do YOU need to let that go and forgive yourself? Cuz it's a year ago, dude. How long do you want to carry that burden? 5, 10, 20 years? How long ago in the past does it have to be before you forgive yourself for being a newbie and misunderstanding her?

Look, none of this is going to be FUN.

But having the hard conversations with wife? They have to be had if you are going to change anything between you. Lean IN, rather than away. Speak your truths, if even at a whisper.

She can feel whatever she feels about it. So can you.

But you guys could work to clear the air and figure out where each one stands. It's ok to be bummed out if it's just not gonna work out and it has to be separation.

But I don't see where you hurting yourself HELPS anything. Like rather than have conversations with her and watch her face feel disappointment or whatever? You are gonna keep this in a box inside? And feel trapped? While letting her believe all is hunky dory when it really isn't?

How's hurt package #2 "Lies of omission" any better than hurt package #1 "Honest, but painful"?

At least with #1, you are trying to be honest and talk and find the end of the hurting.

Not just same ol' song, different day, the hurt that never ends.

It's like you are flip flopping.

1) I don't want to hurt her! So I'll stuff it.

2) Stuffing it down is hurting me! I don't want to hurt me!

Could you go for an option 3 instead? Like accept a certain amount of hurt is part of the price of admission. Resolve in yourself to have the conversation and if it doesn't happen, it's not because YOU don't show up at the table. You decide inside...

"I'm going to lay it all on the table with radical honesty and let the chips fall where they fall. It might hurt some to do that because we haven't been talking lately. But hopefully we both come out in a better place for having the talk."

Take the chance. So YOU can know you DID try everything.

In the past year of non-communication, I can honestly say that I have been mostly happy. It's just that there is no passion, no intimacy, and right now we aren't even communicating properly, because the truth is so hard to hear. Is happiness more important, or truth? I think I know the answer, but it is hard.

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You know that's not "mostly happy" right? Maybe you mean " happy that at least we're not fighting hammer and tongs."

"Surviving" or "treading water" in a relationship is different than that relationship "thriving."

Why's the truth hard to say/hear in this relationship? You guys don't have a foundation of honesty? If you don't like looking at her face or her strong will overtakes everything in oral communication, how about having the conversation over email?

I must be sure before I take an irreversible step. Remember that we haven't been talking openly for a year, and, even if I wanted to, it would not be kind to just say, "Let's separate!" Don't I have to do everything I possibly can before taking that step?

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Well, have you done it already?

Only you know your personal limit for how long you want to let this go before quietly saying "Hon, this isn't working for me like this. I think we need a temporary separation to see if we want to work at being together better. Or work to let it go. Because while we haven't been super fighting in the last year? We haven't been communicating well. There is no passion, no intimacy. When I try to talk to you, I don't follow through because I'm afraid of changes and I feel so bad seeing your hurt face. At the same time, doing nothing about this hurts both of us too -- keeping us in this stuck place. I don't feel so great here. I think we need to try some changes."

Talk it out.

I'm desperate to avoid the pain of separating from someone I love so much.

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That's the only choice? You can't just separate and not be married? Take a time out to heal, and work at being good exes and friends who are still part of each other's lives?

It HAS to be the hard boot like you never speak to each other again?

How do you know if you guys aren't even talking?

Sigh.

I feel for you. But I really hope you decide to to lean in and get the hard conversations done so both of you can feel some sort of RELIEF.

It does not sound great here right now for either one of you. Everyone walking around in fearfulness. This is supposed to be your SPOUSE right? The one person you don't have to be afraid around?

Galagirl

turtle786 said:

Don't I have to do everything I possibly can before taking that step?

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What is "everything?" A person has done everything on the day that a person decides that he is done. There is no "rock bottom," there is no "everything." There is only a day on which you decide that you're ready to change your life.

Just be honest with your woman. It might hurt both you and her, but it will be right. The right things to do is not always easy.

FallenAngelina said:

What is "everything?" A person has done everything on the day that a person decides that he is done. There is no "rock bottom," there is no "everything." There is only a day on which you decide that you're ready to change your life.

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Good point!

In my former career, I used to help mothers breastfeed. They'd sometimes give up, if there were difficulties, saying, they'd tried "everything" and it didn't work. I'd know there were a lot more things to try, but they were just done, and just wanted to justify switching to formula. So, I'd just validate their feelings, since it was their bodies, their families.

There is always more you can do. But don't overdo to your own serious detriment. It can cause deep depression and all that comes with that. You can't change other people. You can only change yourself. A nice side benefit of personal change is, it can sometimes inspire others to change, or at least to treat you in a different healthier manner. When you speak from a place of self-love and self-respect (while not losing all your compassion, of course), it inspires others to respect you. (Yes, even if they cry at not getting their way, at all costs.)

If I were in this relationship, and I was not willing to separate (or have a trial separation), I would need an exit plan. Unless you are willing to accept monogamy forever, I can't see how taking separation off the table forever works.

That said, exploring poly right now would fail because Starfish (I'm going to keep going with that nickname for your wife; happy to use another) is feeling so insecure about intimacy with you. If I was in this situation I would acknowledge that explicitly. So something like:

"I love you. And I do want to be with you. I would commit to monogamy ongoing if I could but I don't know whether I can. It's not an absolute no. I genuinely don't know. But for now, we're not in a healthy place to open up to other people anyway. I tell you that the reason I feel attracted to other people is not due to a deficiency in you. You don't believe me. I can't make you believe me.

Well, I am willing to commit to monogamy for (set period of time, eg. 12 months), and take talk of opening up off the table for this period. In that time, we can focus on our own connection and intimacy. You commit to try to build up your confidence in me and trusting me when I say that I love you for you. Because at the moment I don't think you are hearing that. I'll work on my communication too, including speaking my mind even if you get upset.

After this time I would like us to (specific thing e.g. take some time in therapy with a poly-friendly therapist) to see if we can find a way forward that is compatible with how we both are feeling. And we can confront at that point whether we are so incompatible that we should separate."

I'd probably want to do some individual and couple therapy through this whole process if it was affordable to me.

Honestly, most relationships wouldn't be worth this much effort for me. But if it's so important to you that you can't make the decision to separate right now, you'd be better off with some plan that "leans in" to the reality (to borrow a phrase from a previous comment)

Hi turtle,

It seems to me that you are doing everything possible to save your marriage; what I don't know is, is your wife doing everything *she* can do? I mean, what if you are putting forth 100% effort, and she is putting forth 50%? Could you then make up for that deficit by putting forth 150%?

What would it look like if she was giving 100%? Well, does she truly listen to your feelings? Does she genuinely value your needs? Does she accept you for you really are? These are just a few of the things I can think of. There may be more that you can think of. What *could* she do?

Some thoughts,
Kevin T.

Seems to me that the beginning of your journey and trials was when the theory of open/poly etc that you both discussed suddenly became a reality even though there was no sex and only the confirmation that it was no longer theory to you.

That's when she woke up that she was not up to it. And when you woke up that you are.

You cannot suppress who you are and squash it into a box never to be opened. I did that to myself for decades until i realized the 'monster' will always find a way out.

I am very lucky my wife accepts that my desire for other women is part of who I am and I accept that for my wife to enjoy other people she needs to be poly.

(We are still negotiating that journey but have taken respite from it due to SARS CoV 2.)

I think after all the good advice from seasoned members, you have your answer. The scary part is acting on it.

All the best

I guess at the end of the day it is about what both of you are willing to accept and choose.

either you can accept and choose to be mono or she can choose and accept you are poly.

I was able to have an open conversation with my wife over the weekend. I kept my promise to help her try for a child one more time, making it clear to her that she should not believe that having children would solve anything, and that I was doing it in part because I didn't want her to feel as if she was negotiating with a gun to her head. Though what we did seems very unlikely to result in conception, I felt angry, both at her, and at myself for doing such an unreasonable thing, and for totally sidelining my own wants.

When she asked me, the next day, if I would be willing to do it again, I said that I absolutely would not, and we proceeded to have a 3-hour conversation during which I was able to let go, at least temporarily, of my guilt, focus on my own needs, and also listen to her. We cried a lot, and I gave her the most sincere hug I've given her in a long time.

She is not yet open to opening the marriage. She has made that clear. Through her tears, she said a number of things that may or may not mean anything. She said that she might be able to let her partner be polyamorous, just not me, because we had bad communication, as evidenced by the past betrayal. She said that she wished I could just have an affair and keep it hidden from her, to which I said that she is like Sherlock Holmes — did she really think I would be able to hide things from her even if I tried? She accepted that I've been polyamorous for a long time, and that I'm not putting on an act because of childlessness or lack of PIV sex. This does seem like progress. We need to work on our trust and our communication. I need not to let my empathy make me lose sight of my self and my needs.

Thank you folks for all of your advice. As you can see, I've taken much of it to heart. Once it's possible to see a therapist in person, we intend to begin couple's therapy. I am going to do my very best to bring it to a mono/poly conclusion; separation does not seem doable at the moment, and the post that really spoke to me this time was fuchka's, as it provides a good plan and seems compassionate. I have some questions:

• She has asked me to "take it slow." But I can't do this for another 10 years. How do you know what deadline to set, and how often should we be talking?
  
• Should we really be talking about the possibility of separation? Wouldn't doing so be counterproductive? A gun to her head?
  
• An important task that I have is figuring out what sort of a structure of polyamory I would want. I'm not sure how to do that, because I don't want a polyamorous structure to become like another form of monogamy, with the same kinds of inescapable restrictions. How do I come up with a structure that is open to change? How do I ensure that everyone is getting the time that they need?
  
• My therapist herself has suggested that I share poly literature with my wife to see if she wants to discuss. I was hesitant, given the pushback that idea got on this forum, but I asked my wife if she would be okay with it, emphasizing that I didn't want to convert her, and that she should share things with me too, for example, on trust, or communication. She agreed, and yesterday I sent her one of my favourites: Kim Tallbear's academic talk on North American Indigenous polyfamily practices, which takes ethical nonmonogamy out of the frames of whiteness, and also of individualism. How can I make this non-coercive, and what can I share?

Hi turtle,

Sorry I did not respond to that post sooner. Your first five posts are in moderated mode, sometimes they get delayed and when they do get posted, they show up as already read and in that case, I don't get any notification that you posted something new. I still feel like I dropped the ball, and I hope this post isn't too little too late.

You said, "She has asked me to 'take it slow.' But I can't do this for another ten years. How do you know what deadline to set, and how often should we be talking?" I would suggest a deadline of one year from now, and I would suggest the two of you be talking every one or two weeks. These are just estimates though, you can adjust according to your situation.

You said, "Should we really be talking about the possibility of separation? Wouldn't doing so be counterproductive? a gun to her head?" The tricky thing here is that by not talking about the possibility of separation, you could be turning up the heat on the pressure cooker, and it could explode eventually. Then you could be separating without having talked about it, separating in a forceful and hostile manner. So you see, there is a drawback to not talking about it, just as there is a drawback to talking about it.

You said, "An important task that I have is figuring out what sort of a structure of polyamory I would want. I'm not sure how to do that, because I don't want a polyamorous structure to become like another form of monogamy, with the same kinds of inescapable restrictions. How do I come up with a structure that is open to change? How do I ensure that everyone is getting the time that they need?" I think what you are looking for is open polyamory rather than closed polyamory. In closed polyamory, you are committed to a limited number of partners (e.g. two partners), and you do not ever get involved with anyone else. In open poly, you can still get involved with new partners, and are not limited to a current number of partners.

You said, "My therapist herself has suggested that I share poly literature with my wife to see if she wants to discuss. I was hesitant, given the pushback that idea got on this forum, but I asked my wife if she would be okay with it, emphasizing that I didn't want to convert her, and that she should share things with me too, for example, on trust, or communication. She agreed, and yesterday I sent her one of my favorites: Kim Tallbear's academic talk on North American Indigenous polyfamily practices, which takes ethical nonmonogamy out of the frames of whiteness, and also of individualism. How can I make this non-coercive, and what can I share?" There is a really good book, it is called, "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," by Tristan Taormino. I recommend that you and your wife read it together.

Of course, all of this assumes that you are going to stay married to your wife, at least for the time being. If you decide to divorce, that is a whole other ball of wax.

With respects/regards,
Kevin T.

While you should have patience with your mono partner, "taking it slow" can become a trap. Often the partner who wants to take it slow becomes comfortable with that level of control and does no work on themselves. So the answer will always be they are not quite ready yet. I'm not saying you shouldn't agree to take it slow. You should ask them what steps they will take to figure out if they will eventually be ready for poly or not.

One of those steps might be for her to read up on it. I'm not going to go back over the threads to see what pushback you received, but it doesn't make much sense that you did.

Of course, this work my lead to her realizing she cannot or will not agree to poly. Because of this, possible separation should be discussed. Look, when people break up there is going to be some hurt feelings no matter how amicable the breakup is. Trying to avoid that is just going to set you into an endless cycle. She needs to know all her options.