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  #11  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:53 AM
polyexplorer polyexplorer is offline
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Thanks Tonberry,

I agree that there is usually something underneath the jealousy and getting to the real reason behind it is what needs to be worked through...

It is such a major shift in thinking for me too having always assumed that mono is really the only appropriate long-term relationship. It is a huge jump for me to get my head around poly being OK, so how much harder must it be for my wife!
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2010, 02:55 PM
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But this image of someone who matches you 100% and fills 100% of your needs 100% of the time is wrong and flawed, and that leads people to be disappointed when it doesn't happen. So one thing is definitely to get used to the fact that no, this is not a realistic scenario.
Mind you, monogamy is possible, and works for some people, and nothing else would work for some people. But that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

.
I totally agree with the idea that no one person can fill all needs for any other individual. But that is not what Monogamy is about. I have never met a single mono person who believes that.

I'm always confused by the idea that people need to sleep with some one just because they fill a need their partner doesn't.
I ride motorbike with people other than Redpepper primarily because she doesn't have a license or a bike.....they fulfill that need but I don't need to have sex with them.

I guess the concept of tying in intimacy with everyone who fills a need just seems a bit too much like bartering..or an excuse for simply wanting to have sex with them.
Every time some one makes this statement it only serves to reinforce the idea that the main focus of poly ideology is to justify the desire/need to have sex with multiple people.

Of course, if the words "needs" is being specifically used towards sexual activity than the above statement is totally true for some and totally not true for others.v Some people have all thier needs in this area met by one, others do not. I totally agree with that

****Hopefully this came out respectfully Tonberry...I'm gearing up to watch a "debate" at our local University on the Nature of Monogamy. My hackles are on full alert because I'm suspicious about whether it will be a debate at all or a one sided lecture on why I should be non-monogamous LOL.
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 09-21-2010 at 03:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:32 PM
surfer surfer is offline
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I've heard many people on this site say that they were able to convince their partners to try poly, or help steer them into that direction, but of course this is not going to work on all cases (I'm giving up hope that my wife will agree to poly). People change, relationships change, and if there really are "irreconcilable differences" like one person wants monogamy and the other doesn't, there is no shame in ending the relationship and letting both people find another one that is a better fit. Something for you to consider.... it might be too scary to think about right now, but a month or a year from now, if you're still not happy, it might seem like the least hurtful way out of situation that's painful for everyone involved.

Mono, you made a similar reply to one of my posts and I agree that the "needs" rhetoric can seem like making excuses to have sex with someone, except in the case of sexual needs as you mentioned. However when it's about emotional needs, it's not as clear-cut, because it's definitely possible to get some emotional fulfillment from non-sexual friendships, but deep emotional connection is hard to get outside of a romantic relationship, at least in American culture, it seems to me.

Last edited by surfer; 09-21-2010 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by surfer View Post
People change, relationships change, and if there really are "irreconcilable differences" like one person wants monogamy and the other doesn't, there is no shame in ending the relationship and letting both people find another one that is a better fit. .
This is a very important point. There is no failure and should not be a sense of disapointment in one' self.

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Originally Posted by surfer View Post
Mono, you made a similar reply to one of my posts .....but deep emotional connection is hard to get outside of a romantic relationship, at least in American culture, it seems to me.
I know I sound like a broken record some times

I think I have a problem understanding what is this "deep emotional connection" outside of a romantic one that people are trying to chieve. I have this same problem trying to understand how Redpepper sees relationships. I think I am too simple in how I conduct relationships to grasp it.

- I have every day friends that I see everyday but when they are out of sight they basically are out of mind. If I never see them again it has no impact on me and I don't think about them very often. They have no access to information that I consider makes me vulnerable to them.

- I have family friends that I carry a concious concern for at all time no matter where they are...I don't need to be in contact with them to be fulfilled though, simply knowing they exist is enough. They have limited access to information that I consider makes me vulnerable to them.

- I have an intimate partner/Redpepper who I am completely open with and has full access to information that I consider makes me vulnerable.

Perhaps it is my lack of need for deeper relationships that makes it seem so baffling to me.

Sorry for the hijack
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by polyexplorer View Post
I agree that there is usually something underneath the jealousy and getting to the real reason behind it is what needs to be worked through...

It is such a major shift in thinking for me too having always assumed that mono is really the only appropriate long-term relationship. It is a huge jump for me to get my head around poly being OK, so how much harder must it be for my wife!
Very good insight I think...

jealousy is tricky. It would be a valuable exercise I would think to sit down with her and get at the root of what that is for her. For me it means that I have an unmet need. "I want to feel like I am number one," "I want to have more intimacy," "I want more crazy sex," "I need to work out more," "I need your undivided attention"... who knows what it is for her. If you know then you can do something about it before even starting to embark on taking on another that has complicated needs... believe me, it's a juggling act.

There is no having ones cake and eating it too... other than extra love and support, really, the amount of work, especially at the beginning of poly relationships is phenomenal. That's why I always remind that there is time and one should take time. Sometimes it is completely overwhelming to have to juggle peoples shit as well as our own...why rush to sort it out, often things get missed. I would think getting your ducks in a row with your wife and her needs would fair you well when and if you start another relationship with this other person.

@tonberry, I like the friends bit better I think, yet I do friendships sometimes like I do romantic relationships, that might be why it works for me
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:02 PM
polyexplorer polyexplorer is offline
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Is emotional connection a "need" or perhaps an expression of oneself?

I resonate with your comments mono. I know for a large part of my married life I have been perfectly OK with being mono. I didn't feel any need or drive to find deep emotional or physical connection with any else outside of my wife. Sure I had friends and family and these met certain needs, however, I was content to let them be at a certain distance from me, and the only person I allowed into the close, intimate part of my life was my wife.

Our life together was happy and we had an amazing relationship! I could never have asked for more!

Then I met "J"...

Notice that I was already happy and content and wasn't searching to meet any "need" (at least not consciously I guess). However in meeting "J" something inside of me opened up. I found something more of myself. New expressions of me. And in all of this I started to let her in...

If you had of told me of this scenario a few years earlier, I probably would have looked at you with a strange expression of non-understanding. Why would I "need" to let someone else in? But now in hindsight I can totally get it. It was always there in me. This part of me, an expression of who I am, to connect at deeper levels with more than just one person. I think I buried it under my passion for my work. I loved my work. Perhaps I was emotionally connected to her as well!?!? Perhaps for a long time, "she" was my other... (and besides, being the pastor of an evangelical church and poly don't exactly mix and it certainly wasn't on my radar...)

In meeting "J" I realised that my work was a poor substitute for that expression of me to connect at deeper levels. My work no longer was so important to me. I backed away from the deep emotional connection I had with her (my work) and opened my heart to "J". This is where things got messy...

My wife was OK with me having another emotional lover, as long as that other lover was my work. She and I were a front line team in that endevour anyway. We were a threesome! A triad. Her and me and our work! As a threesome we were making a difference in people's lives! Seeing healing happen, promoting community and spiritual well-being. We were all in love!

My wife was not OK when I started replacing our other lover with another human being. But for me, I was tapping in to who I really am. It is not a "need". It is an expression of me...

An interesting question to ponder is does everyone have that expression of themselves hidden deep within them, and are only some ready and/or wanting to express it?

And I agree with you redpepper, it's about being patient with my wife. I hope that we can discuss this openly without her shutting down from the idea before even openly considering the possibilities and what it all means for both of us (and for "J" and anyone else in the future...).

I so badly want to be with my wife forever, but I am also scared that in the long run, I don't know how healthy it is for me to keep shutting down this new found expression of myself that I have experienced. I wake up every morning with a knot in my stomach, not really wanting to face another day. Not wanting to keep suppressing myself, yet also knowing that this is how it needs to be for now...
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polyexplorer View Post
being the pastor of an evangelical church and poly don't exactly mix and it certainly wasn't on my radar...

My wife was OK with me having another emotional lover, as long as that other lover was my work. She and I were a front line team in that endevour anyway. We were a threesome! A triad. Her and me and our work! As a threesome we were making a difference in people's lives! Seeing healing happen, promoting community and spiritual well-being. We were all in love!
When you backed away from your work, you backed away from your wife as well. You were a team and now the team is having to forfiet games because you backed out. You cut out an essential part of her life when you cut it out of yours.

Are you still a pastor? This maybe something that needs to be seriously re-evaluated between you and your wife. Can the two of you be a team, helping people in a similar manner without the expectations that come with being a pastor and a pastor's wife?

A personal love interest should not be replacing your life's work, it should be able to enhance it. Is this making you a less effective pastor, sounds like it? Will you harm your family by pursuing this (ie: put yourself out of work)?

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Originally Posted by polyexplorer View Post
I so badly want to be with my wife forever
Then start by making this relationship the best that it can be first and then go from there (I know, I've just said this in another post - sorry).

Last edited by SNeacail; 09-22-2010 at 04:27 AM.
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2010, 12:13 AM
polyexplorer polyexplorer is offline
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Thanks SNeacail,

I am no longer a pastor. Both my wife and I are actually not interested in being involved with church or religion, and it is amazing how we have both journeyed this together and come to very similar conclusions at the same time despite still working through our other issues concerning what happened with "J". This has been especially amazing considering my wife is also the daughter of a pastor from a very traditional religious background!

You are right though in regards to it now leaving a hole where we were once working together as a team, but now we have had to pursue individual careers. But having said that, I think this has been a good thing because she has been able to pursue interests that she perhaps otherwise would not have, and she now has a very successful massage, reiki and bowen therapy business. I take my hat off to her! I, on the other hand, have floundered since leaving the work I loved. I couldn't go back for many different reasons, mainly due to a change of thinking around the whole religious system side of things, but I did love the actual work. But I'm also confident that this is a season...

But I agree totally in seeking to make my relationship with my wife the best it can be...
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  #19  
Old 09-22-2010, 12:41 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I totally agree with the idea that no one person can fill all needs for any other individual. But that is not what Monogamy is about. I have never met a single mono person who believes that.
I wasn't trying to say that's what monogamy is about. I meant that it's what's portrayed in the media. And that even in monogamous relationships, I've known lots of people who broke up because "he just wasn't the one: (insert small detail here)". People who think of fairy tales and people perfect for one another.

This part of my post certainly wasn't meant to say "monogamy is thinking that one partner fills all of your needs". What I meant is "the idea that one partner fills out of your needs is pervasive, and makes polyamoury harder for people to wrap their minds around". It's wrong in any relationship, mono or poly, and having a husband and a boyfriend doesn't mean that together they fill all of my needs, either.

I also never meant to say you need to have sex. I don't think I talked much about sex in my post, really. But when you do have a strong romantic emotional connection with someone, yes, it can lead to sex. That's not the need though. Although you can also want casual sex for instance, and get it outside of the relationship. That's swinging more than polyamory though.

Maybe I went about it the wrong way. I guess the way I see it isn't exactly that. The way I see it is similar to a friend telling me "if you want to really be my friend, you can't be friends with anyone else, ever". It seems restrictive and mostly, I don't get it. Why? Having other friends is good for when you're not around, plus we can all hang out together, too. And why should YOU decide how many friends I have? What does it have to do with you? What does it take away from you?

Most friends, even close friends, would never ask for something like that. They might object to a specific person because they personally dislike them or think they're not a good friend to you, but that's it.
I think the way I feel is less "I have needs" and more "I will feel locked up and resentful if you impose these limits on me. Only I have the right to impose them on myself, and I don't see a point to them so I won't."

Last edited by Tonberry; 09-22-2010 at 01:52 AM. Reason: Corrected some typos
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  #20  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:23 AM
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Thanks for clarifying Tonberry.
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