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  #21  
Old 09-19-2010, 03:27 PM
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I do understand what you're saying about human shortcomings and maybe your job is just a microcosm of society at large. It seems to me that there is a culture of saying one thing and doing another in your workplace, there is the way things are supposed to be done and then you're given the convinient way to cheat.

I highly doubt your wife would hold cheating on a test against you, especially when you were told that you could. What you did amounts to a DADT situation, not outright going behiend someone's back. Although I'm kind of wondering why she didn't chew you out for not turning everyone else in. If a situation is corrupt it's not going to ever change unless people start speaking up about it.

Do people make mistakes? Absolutely they do! It's pretty easy when your not the one "in the wrong" to blast others who have faultered. When someone is asking for advice around cheating or lying though I'm pretty sure that the general consensus is going to be not to do it. I don't know if part of the distinction between cheating on a test and cheating on people is that we are putting our lives in our partners' hands if we are fluid bonded with them and therefore need to have absolute trust in them. With a test it kind of sucks to cheat and get caught but you move on and it really doesn't affect anyone else.

I came to the realization a while ago that cheating any lying in my world always leads me to getting caught. Listen to that voice of your great grandfather, sounds like he's a wise man.

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  #22  
Old 09-19-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Once I learned patience, it really paid off...just took a little time...and by a little I mean probably 8 months. So for anyone who would ask, ‘I’m doing all this work, but how do I get my partner to get into this’, I’d just remind them of Princess Leia’s eternal words to Gov. Tarkin, “The more you tighten your grip…, the more star systems will slip through your fingers”. Yes...I’m a gheek...get over it.


At any rate, for me, the long months were well spent working on my own issues.
Bwahahahahahahaha! LMAO on this one! So true. Very witty Mister.

I am only up to your September 1st post, and looking forward to reading the rest but alas I am off to work. Thanks for the posts, great insight and interesting blog...your wife is right you were a mystery to me and I think she is as cute as a button with some really great input on here- so it was good to read your journey.
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  #23  
Old 09-20-2010, 04:50 AM
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WOW! Great read. I think compassion and a place for understanding and advice and solace is all anyone on this forum is seeking. Fallibility is what makes an individual beautiful in my eyes, not perfection. Avoiding mistakes by listening to your grandfather in your head may have been the "right" thing to do; but every decision/action one may make/take gives the individual an opportunity to grow...whether it is to learn to trust one's gut feeling, or to learn a lesson from one's mistake (not just how to avoid the mistake- that is an obvious outcome) but to also appreciate the collateral learning. Know what I mean? You gained a new perspective and compassion for something you never directly experienced. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:15 AM
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We all learn from mistakes and we all try and keep others from making mistakes by telling them our story and what to look out for. It's all good. Like cheating on a partner, this incident was a mistake and it sounds like you are learning from it.

When people turn away from advice given or an opinion or even an emotional outbreak when someone tells them they have cheated then they have missed a learning moment. The moment is lost. It's too bad, but when someone comes to this forum and walks away because they aren't getting the response they want is missing a learning moment. So be it. It isn't such a bad thing and it's their loss.

Talking about all of our stuff helps! Thank you for sharing that.... it helps more than can be explained. People are touched by one another when they share... also a human thing.
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2010, 07:29 AM
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Very true RP!
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2010, 02:15 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by Derbylicious View Post
Do people make mistakes? Absolutely they do! It's pretty easy when your not the one "in the wrong" to blast others who have faultered. When someone is asking for advice around cheating or lying though I'm pretty sure that the general consensus is going to be not to do it. I don't know if part of the distinction between cheating on a test and cheating on people is that we are putting our lives in our partners' hands if we are fluid bonded with them and therefore need to have absolute trust in them. With a test it kind of sucks to cheat and get caught but you move on and it really doesn't affect anyone else.
Without knowing what II does for a living ... what if this was a medical professional's test? A police test? A pilot's test? He could very well have been putting the lives of others in danger if he's expected to know the answers in the moment! (Not meaning offense II, and I probably would have done the same thing ... )

What's my point? Well, sometimes perhaps cheating on a partner should be put in perspective. I think circumstances exist in the real world where cheating is the least of all evils. It should by no means be the first option one turns to, but when speaking of cheating I am always triggered to remember a quote about abortion: "The only ethical abortion is MY abortion."

II, love the blog. You have really given Indigo and I something to think about. You may be on to something by asking QUESTIONS.

Last edited by TruckerPete; 09-21-2010 at 02:24 PM. Reason: typo
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2010, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckerPete View Post
Without knowing what II does for a living ... what if this was a medical professional's test? A police test? A pilot's test? He could very well have been putting the lives of others in danger if he's expected to know the answers in the moment! (Not meaning offense II, and I probably would have done the same thing ... )
No offence taken. You're perfectly right...and that's one calculation I hadn't actually made at the time...or at all until you brought it up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckerPete View Post
II, love the blog. You have really given Indigo and I something to think about. You may be on to something by asking QUESTIONS.
It's encouraging to know others are getting something out of this. Thanks for the feedback.
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:18 AM
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Red face Her first gf, and The long wait.

I think my wife found her first gf sometime while I was still processing the issue of her dating other men. There had been a few meetings with girls that might have been interested in her, but the connection just wasn’t there. She eventually met someone through a local parenting board. She was another married woman looking to explore her bi-curiosity...although not at all poly, nor interested in the concept. I’m not sure I need to go into much depth about her relationship (since that’d be more her story than mine), but there were signs right from the get go that it wasn’t going to be a lasting arrangement. Regardless, I wasn’t going to stand in the way of it, since every relationship, no matter how brief, is a learning experience. And we both learned quite a bit from the experience. My wife discovered she wasn’t curious...just bi...which didn’t make me sad at all. (For someone who had spent the previous years unicorn hunting, it was good to know the door to threesomes was still open, and not just conjecture) More importantly though, she, and I learned a lot about what kind of people/communication/sex & attitudes towards all of the above that we weren’t compatible with, and gave us a much better idea of what we should be looking for in the future.


I didn’t get to meet her before they got involved...I just found out one day after one of their dates that the no-naked-fun (Unless we were together) rule which had been in place during the swinger exploration was no longer. I was away at the time...so I thought cool, that should open the door for me to have fun too. I was travelling a lot, so I wasn’t looking to get too involved, but rather an opportunity to explore things a little more casually, since that was something I’d never tried, and I didn’t have time at that juncture to work on anything that would have delusions of being serious or long term.


Apparently that wasn’t the case. I was still under lock and key so to speak...or at least it seemed that way. It didn’t affect much on that particular trip because there was a two pronged problem...one was that while I had given my wife the trust and autonomy to find a partner and carry on with them (as long as it was safe), I was not granted the same latitude. It seemed I was expected to let my wife know what or who I’d be up to ahead of time, and she’d probably want to talk to them first...etc....which organizing from 8000 miles and 6 time-zones was liable to be a little challenging.

For the most part, the second problem made the first kind of moot...it was very difficult to find interested parties. I tended to be looking a lot online...mostly POF at the time. It had the advantage of being able to make contact with people in far away places before I got there. The problem was that it wasn’t overly poly friendly. Online dating for guys seems to be inherently one sided as it is...where there’s so many guys on these sites relative to the women that it’s hard to stand out. And a lot of brainless one line messages get sent to women with a depressing frequency. All of it combines to create a lot of static which is hard enough for guys to make themselves seen as it is.

87 Visitors and 32 New Messages in the last 25 minutes:

New message “hI”, click, next.

New message: “Hi Wanna F***” click, next.

2Tall Visited Your Profile: Hmm, too tallclick, next.

2Short Visited Your Profile: too short, click, next.

Classclown Visited Your Profile: Not serious enough click, next.

MrSerious Visited Your Profile: Doesn’t make me laugh click, next.

SomeFitGuy Visited Your Profile: No car click, next.

CarLover Visited Your Profile: Couch potato click, next.


Then once it’s mentioned that a guy is non-monogamous...or worse, married...click, next.

Even if the women is one of the rare gems that wouldn’t mind a poly or non-monogamous relationship...the above weeding out process still seems to apply, so many messages go out...with very few returns.


Yes, this is a somewhat tongue firmly planted in cheek example of the process, but it’s for illustration purposes...and the reason that patience is absolutely mandatory. When I attended a meet recently, there was a fellow who asked how long online dating was supposed to take. He had been on OKC for a whole month...and seemed frustrated at the lack of results. He asked the group how long it should take...2 months, 2 years, 10 years? I had to tell him straight up no guff, “yes”.


I have no delusions about it. I more or less wasted my youth, and just trying not to waste my semi-youth anymore. I was never accused of having much in the way of looks, and I don’t get to the gym as much as I should. I also have no reason to think I’d classify as complete dogmeat either...after all, my wife has better taste than that. There were still periods of severe drought in online correspondence where for months not a single thing I sent out would be responded to... not even with a short PFO message. And I don’t send out crappy one liners either. My wife still laughs at how much time I’ll spend writing to women who will never write back. Thanks dear. Love you too.


So how long does it take? Settle in for months...and be ready for longer. Even when I got responses...many didn’t pan out. There’d occasionally be a reply, and then they’d have to be willing to meet. And then it would turn out that we just didn’t have that much in common, or that the idea of poly didn’t sit well with them. They might have a strange set of morals (strange now anyways...they probably would have made more sense if I was still from the mono world) where they didn’t want to ever be cheated on, but they could somehow reconcile being the ‘other’ women in someone else’s relationship. Or we just didn’t really have the spark. Mostly typical first to second date type things.
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:18 AM
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Unhappy False Starts

And then there was a couple of girls who stood out...who were into poly, willing to meet, and whom I might have gotten along with. And then I got shut down.


The first seemed very promising. She was local, versed in poly even though she was looking for something more akin to FWB...which suited me fine. I didn’t figure I’d have the time at that point for much more. Things were moving very fast though. Perhaps faster than I would have planned, but then I’m kinda slow when it comes to these things. We setup a meeting so my wife could meet her, and I could meet her primary. I thought things went fairly well...but there were issues simmering. I don’t recall if they weren’t being expressed clearly, or I just wasn’t paying attention...probably a bit of both.

All I know is that the next time I got together with her, things went very quickly back to her place, but we stopped short of anything we’d end up regretting later.


It became a good abject lesson in how one needs to be aware of the boundaries at tall times...but that they can change or shift, which sometimes makes it hard to keep track of.

And when I told my wife, I found out just how much I had misunderstood the nature of the ‘rules’ and which ones I was still supposed to be following...ones which I had long since released her from. The blowout was almost epic...but it was the 2x4 I needed to pay attention. I didn’t understand the problem, we followed the steps, we had the meeting...everyone smiles politely and talked. What was the issue? Why were we going to need to go backwards instead of forwards?


Go at the pace of the slowest person. Yes, we had done the obligatory meeting...but I had missed the point. She had met the new prospective FWB but hadn’t yet gotten comfortable with her. It wasn’t that she wasn’t going to be...just not yet. There were things making her spidey sense go off, and she needed more information...more time to know this woman before that was going to go away.

So we asked the FWB for another meeting, and she refused. She had already expressed a wariness to me about poly drama...and apparently another meeting with my wife was more drama than she was willing to tolerate, and simply bowed out all together. I had kind of expected it I guess, based on the previous conversations. My wife surprised me in being more upset about that than I was. But that’s my wife for ya...17 years, she still surprises me. For me, it was just back to the drawing board...aka. Laptop and OKC, wash, rinse, repeat.


The second...still never made sense to me. She wasn’t local, but not too far away. Again not exactly poly, but could get along with the idea comfortably. We started chatting regularly online. And then my wife saw a picture and took an instant dislike to her. The girl tended to change her hair colour frequently, and it just happened that the first pic that my wife saw was a newer one where she had blonde hair. She decided the girl looked too much like Harpie, a woman her ex-bf had dumped her for 15 years prior.

I’m quite certain that my wife never actually met Harpie ...not then, and not when she reappeared courtesy of FB a couple years prior to this incident. She only ever had some high school yearbook photo’s to go by. Having had known Harpie personally though high school, I frankly didn’t see the resemblance. But it didn’t really matter. I wasn’t going to be allowed to get intimate with this one either.

Unfortunately I don’t sit well with things that don’t make sense...and this didn’t make sense. There was no talk about meeting her, chatting with her to get to know her. She looked like Harpie and that was it. It didn’t make sense to me. Still doesn’t. And at the very least, I wasn’t going to let it get in the way of a face to face meeting to see if this new girl was worth bothering to argue with my wife about or not.

We never really finished the conversation about the Harpie -lookalike. We met, had a nice time. But I don’t think there was that spark. I liked her well enough, but I got the feeling she wasn’t into me. She went home, and I didn’t return to her city again for a year. A lot of the conversation ended up being moot...at least about the poly aspects. There was still things to talk about with regard to her ex-bf and the fact that 15 years later the meddling asshole and Harpie are still interfering with our relationship (without doing anything). And I used to count him among my best friends. Good thing he doesn’t read this...he’d probably get enormous satisfaction in that.
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  #30  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:18 AM
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Cool Wake of the aftermath...

The long wait, and these false starts basically chewed up the entire time of my wife’s entire relationship with her first gf.


The gf was experimenting with her hubby...and they were starting to venture further...as I suspected they would eventually. She was loosening her grip on him and they were starting to talk about threesomes or foursomes. And she was trying to drag me into it. I think my wife knew better. Her gf was a nice girl and all, but not really my type. More importantly I’d compartmentalized her as off limits long ago since there was an understanding right from the beginning that the husbands wouldn’t be involved in the women’s intimacies. That had been somewhat relaxed on the other side, but I just wasn’t interested in altering that boundary.

By this time I was also getting a little frustrated at my metamore. She didn’t really treat my wife the way I thought she should. I didn’t see my wife’s needs being met. Plans were few and far between...and only when convenient for the gf. She had a husband to watch the kids, where I was gone a lot of the time so my wife had to find sitters. And more often than not the gf would cancel at the last minute and stay home with hubby, leaving my wife with a sitter and nothing to do. Not cool. Once in a pressing urgency would be one thing...getting sick on occasion maybe. But this was becoming a consistent pattern.

She was also trying to press monogamous type rules on my wife...there wasn’t much she could do about me, but she was making up rules that would make it hard for my wife to date anyone else at the same time...and the rules never seemed to apply to the gf. Only my wife. The final straw when I really started to reel at was when the gf started expressing an interest in having an opinion about what I was doing, and who I’d be dating. It was about the same time as the first false start, the possible FWB mentioned earlier. My wife may have been content with the one sided rules in play for herself when at that time she didn’t have a reason to argue with them...no one in the wings that might require a renegotiation. But I was having enough trouble negotiating with my wife...I certainly wasn’t going to suffer her gf’s interference in my affairs. And couldn’t that sentence sound wrong out of context.

And then somewhere along the line I got word that my wife had been dumped...again. The gf had done this before when her and hubby started thinking about unicorn hunting the previous summer. Now they had some other girl that they were trying to pursue a relationship with...and so she acted in accordance with the regular mono scripts and dumped her current gf. The summer before I figured after a couple months of fruitless searching for the mythical, she’d come back, and she did. And again, I figured that when their new playtoy relationship didn’t work out (they just didn’t prepare themselves for this kind of thing, and she’s a little self-centred, so I wasn’t optimistic about their chances) that she’d again come back to my wife. And she did. Damn I’m good...at predicting the behaviour of predictable people.


Fortunately my wife is a quick study...and didn’t take the gf back the second time. She had gotten what she needed from that relationship. We both had. I think she had learned not only that she was no longer curious, just bi...and that she needed someone she could establish a friendship with first. And I think she learned more about what kind of communication she would need, what boundaries may or may not work for her, and what kind of respect she would need from a prospective partner. She started attending more of the local poly meets somewhere in there too...only a few at first. But I think it started helping her develop the language, and skills...and the relationships with other poly folk who she could sound off with...who understood the issues better than the now ex-gf ever did.

And I learned a fair amount too. I can learn a lot from observing others, which is why places like this forum or the local meets are so important to me. There were several traits about the ex-gf which I knew wouldn’t be compatible, and more importantly the attitudes and lack of communication wouldn’t have washed. I knew better now what to look for, what I should avoid. I also had a better understanding of what I should be doing as a metamore for my wife’s partners. And perhaps better what I should be doing for my wife as a paramour. I had been largely hands off, and let her find her own way with the gf. And while I still don’t figure I need to try and get in the way of anything, I did learn that I should be more involved. That I did need to stay engaged with her relationships to make sure that she was being treated properly. And perhaps to be a little more insistent that something be done if she wasn’t.

I think we both also learned that while boundaries still needed to be fair, they were not always equal...they were linked to the needs of the person who required them to feel secure.
But where was that dividing line? Where does the need of one person to be secure start infringing on the other’s freedom to make decisions for themselves? Or become an unfair burden on their ability to pursue relationships with another?

For all the heated discussions, the tears and heartache that occurred from time to time, my wife and I were learning more about each other as well. We were learning what we needed from each other. Where our own relationship, while solid, may have weak points or cracks that needed careful attending, or mending. Most importantly, we were learning how to talk to each other about poly. How to communicate about other partners, our hopes, our feelings, and figure out what information was required, or prudent, or overshare. We had a solid base to start from...but this was taking things to the next level, and addressing concerns that we simply never had as a monogamous couple.

We also learned that there was still a long way to go. I still was bound by some boundaries or limits that seemed somewhat one-sided, and occasionally ambiguous. My wife had far more issues or concerns with my dating than I seemed to have with hers. Why was that? How do we work through that? Does it need to be resolved before trying at another relationship? Or does it require a trial by fire so to speak to work it out? And I wasn’t sure where that line between equal and fair was...it’s something we continue to work on.
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