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  #31  
Old 09-13-2010, 08:49 PM
DharmaBum23 DharmaBum23 is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Do you care to elaborate or no?

I'm sorry. It sucks when one takes a step in life and finds that it's more pain and suffering than benefit. I feel that way right now about our aborted attempt to move.
Well, it's like this.

Being poly has shown me, in painful detail, all of the flaws that I can't really do anything about and that wouldn't have come up otherwise.

I got to watch someone that I love so, so much gradually slip away from me.

I got to see the questions that used to kindof bother me and that nobody has been able to answer for over a thousand yeaers bother me even more now because of being poly.

The sex negativity that used to be only kindof an issue? With poly it's a "smack you in the face" issue. It also happens to be an issue that I can't fix unless I totally reconstruct my psyche at a deep level.

I got to realize that I am just as selfish, just as mean, and quite a bit more sadistic than most people. And I got to see that I can't do a thing to change it because it's based on a trait that everyone talks about but that I just don't have(that being that "glowing" or "happy" feeling people get when they do stuff for other people without reward. I just don't feel that. I thought I did but I just don't.).

And for that I have gotten...the ability to watch people have screaming arguments and stay calm.

I was much happier when I thought I had much more in common with Gandhi than Goebbels.
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  #32  
Old 09-13-2010, 09:43 PM
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PLEASE feel free to tell me it's none of my business. I'm not trying to be nosy-I'm sincerely interested because I by nature look for what things can be fixed but only with a major, imaginative and unusual solution.
[QUOTE=DharmaBum23;44240]
Quote:
Being poly has shown me, in painful detail, all of the flaws that I can't really do anything about and that wouldn't have come up otherwise.
Physical flaws? Mental flaws? Emotional Flaws?

Quote:
I got to watch someone that I love so, so much gradually slip away from me.
? As in leave you, or as in grow distant emotionally? (I'm sorry-you likely also already wrote this stuff out somewhere on here, but I've been out of the loop with the board for the last 3 months due to having limited internet access).

Quote:
I got to see the questions that used to kindof bother me and that nobody has been able to answer for over a thousand yeaers bother me even more now because of being poly.
This one I'm very interested in. There's so many questions I've had for my lifetime that I've found answers to in Poly. But there are so many more that I wonder about in regards to non-romantic relationships that are bothering me right now... I'd love to talk more on this topic.....

Quote:
The sex negativity that used to be only kindof an issue? With poly it's a "smack you in the face" issue. It also happens to be an issue that I can't fix unless I totally reconstruct my psyche at a deep level.
I'm unsure what you mean by this. Is it someone else's sex negativity, your own or just in general? I'm not (I don't think) sex negative. However, I'm also not...... hmmm what's the word... I'm a little like Mono describes on here. I feel like there is a special "energy" (for lack of a better term) that I share with people I have sex with, and I'm NOT willing or interested in sharing that with "just anyone" who I find sexually attractive........ scratching my head as I ponder myself....

Quote:
I got to realize that I am just as selfish, just as mean, and quite a bit more sadistic than most people. And I got to see that I can't do a thing to change it because it's based on a trait that everyone talks about but that I just don't have(that being that "glowing" or "happy" feeling people get when they do stuff for other people without reward. I just don't feel that. I thought I did but I just don't.).
Hmmmm, how do you define more selfish, mean, sadistic and "most people"?

I don't really grasp the full concept of what you are saying.

And I'm really confused as to how you thought you could get a happy feeling when you do stuff for other people but now you see that you don't... ?

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And for that I have gotten...the ability to watch people have screaming arguments and stay calm.
Do you mean you stay calm while other people are screaming in arguments?

Quote:
I was much happier when I thought I had much more in common with Gandhi than Goebbels.
I don't know who Goebbels is.

I'm sorry-now I read what I wrote and it sounds like I'm just tearing apart all that you've said; but that's not my intention at all. I'm just very interested in what you have to say.

I think it's important ESPECIALLY since I've had the experience of it being worth it for me, to take the time to understand why and how it's NOT been that for other people. Since I started this thread-and thus far you are the only one whose commented that it HAS NOT been worth it for you-I'm highly interested in your experience with it.

I hope that explains my "tone" in my questions.
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  #33  
Old 09-13-2010, 10:27 PM
DharmaBum23 DharmaBum23 is offline
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First of all, your tone is just fine. Neither you nor anyone else here has ever given me any reason to doubt your good intentions and now is no execption. I apologize for my vagueness. I have a habit of over-explaining and, in order to be respectful, sometimes I underexplain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
PLEASE feel free to tell me it's none of my business. I'm not trying to be nosy-I'm sincerely interested because I by nature look for what things can be fixed but only with a major, imaginative and unusual solution.

Physical flaws? Mental flaws? Emotional Flaws?
Mental and emotional. Before I was poly I had a great deal of confidence in my virtue and in my ability to stay calm and, in a nutshell, be "good" in my own heavily Judeo-Christian influenced way of seeing things(even though I am not Christian anymore I was raised one and still have that way of seeing things in a lot of ways).

Hate was a word I used to describe what other people did. Anger was something other people felt. Not anymore. Since I became poly I've learned hate and anger and all sorts of other things.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

? As in leave you, or as in grow distant emotionally? (I'm sorry-you likely also already wrote this stuff out somewhere on here, but I've been out of the loop with the board for the last 3 months due to having limited internet access).
It's ok. In a nutshell, my SO introduced a new guy into our household. We all gave him the OK with some reluctancy. He ended up connecting with her better than I did. When she wanted to get her own place, she decided she wanted to live with him over me. They have grown closer, have their own jokes, see each other most nights, and basically are like a close couple while I sit in a small apartment and wish that I was more bold in my veto rights.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

This one I'm very interested in. There's so many questions I've had for my lifetime that I've found answers to in Poly. But there are so many more that I wonder about in regards to non-romantic relationships that are bothering me right now... I'd love to talk more on this topic.....
Well, the question is more of a scenario and variations of it have been pondered since Augustine and Paul of Tarsus. The question is this, "How can you reduce or eliminate the points where desire causes one to act irrationally or hurtfully?" In the Middle Ages this was one of the Big Questions as it was seen as the big stumbling block towards becoming without sin(anyone who was rational in the Middle Ages wouldn't do anything that was sinful, and yet people still sinned). In my particular case this manifests as my sex drive. If I had very little desire for sex, my challenges with poly would be insignificant at best. Such is not the case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

I'm unsure what you mean by this. Is it someone else's sex negativity, your own or just in general? I'm not (I don't think) sex negative. However, I'm also not...... hmmm what's the word... I'm a little like Mono describes on here. I feel like there is a special "energy" (for lack of a better term) that I share with people I have sex with, and I'm NOT willing or interested in sharing that with "just anyone" who I find sexually attractive........ scratching my head as I ponder myself....
This sex negativity is all my own. If I was able to wipe the desire for sex out of my mind I would do so without hesitation or regret. To borrow an idea from the Greeks, if I had just agape(unconditional divine love) and no eros(erotic, sexual love), that would be wonderful.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

Hmmmm, how do you define more selfish, mean, sadistic and "most people"?
More selfish in the fact that my SO being quite happy with someone does not make me any happier. The rest, I am sorry, but I can't go into too much detail about. It has to do with my SO's ex-husband. He did more to make me question my judgement about people, my faith in the idea of "basic goodness" and a lot of other things than most.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

And I'm really confused as to how you thought you could get a happy feeling when you do stuff for other people but now you see that you don't... ?
I misstated there. It is more accurate to say that I found out that the happy feeling comes when I do inexpensive things(such as volunteer or give some money to charity) but when I give when it really, really hurts, all I feel is hollow and a little stupid.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Do you mean you stay calm while other people are screaming in arguments?
That's exactly it. When I first became poly and my SO and her OSO fought, they fought very, very loudly. Screaming, ranting, whole 9 yards. It put me in a dark, dark place and I would get flashbacks of when my parents would argue when I was a young man. Now if two people I love scream and throw things, as long as they don't physically hurt each other, it barely bothers me at all(or at least no more than a particularly gory crime drama like CSI).

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I don't know who Goebbels is.
Joseph Goebbels Reich Minister of Propaganda for Germany, 1933-1945. About two weeks ago I saw a movie called "The Goebbels Experiment" which was basically readings from his diary. I found myself really relating to him as he talked about his life, days, and feelings(some things reminded me of things that I thought and felt, days that I lived). I also realized that when I think of the people I really admire such as Gandhi, MLK, or the Dalai Lama, that I just didn't get them. If I had remained monogamous, he would be just as much a mystery now as he was 5 years ago and I am pretty sure that I would be much happier in my ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I'm sorry-now I read what I wrote and it sounds like I'm just tearing apart all that you've said; but that's not my intention at all. I'm just very interested in what you have to say.
It's ok. One love, sister. One love.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

I think it's important ESPECIALLY since I've had the experience of it being worth it for me, to take the time to understand why and how it's NOT been that for other people. Since I started this thread-and thus far you are the only one whose commented that it HAS NOT been worth it for you-I'm highly interested in your experience with it.

I hope that explains my "tone" in my questions.
It's ok. One thing that I want to make abundantly clear. I do not believe that my experience with poly is definitive or indicative. If anything, I consider it illustrative of the potential pitfalls of self knowledge.
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  #34  
Old 09-14-2010, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DharmaBum23 View Post




This sex negativity is all my own. If I was able to wipe the desire for sex out of my mind I would do so without hesitation or regret. To borrow an idea from the Greeks, if I had just agape(unconditional divine love) and no eros(erotic, sexual love), that would be wonderful.


I can relate Life would be way simpler LOL...Not as much fun perhaps
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  #35  
Old 09-14-2010, 01:38 AM
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[QUOTE=DharmaBum23;44263]
Quote:
First of all, your tone is just fine. Neither you nor anyone else here has ever given me any reason to doubt your good intentions and now is no execption. I apologize for my vagueness. I have a habit of over-explaining and, in order to be respectful, sometimes I underexplain.
Hysterical! I hae a habit of over-explaining too!

Quote:
It's ok. In a nutshell, my SO introduced a new guy into our household. We all gave him the OK with some reluctancy. He ended up connecting with her better than I did. When she wanted to get her own place, she decided she wanted to live with him over me. They have grown closer, have their own jokes, see each other most nights, and basically are like a close couple while I sit in a small apartment and wish that I was more bold in my veto rights.
Ouch. That's heartbreaking!

Quote:
In my particular case this manifests as my sex drive. If I had very little desire for sex, my challenges with poly would be insignificant at best. Such is not the case.
Welll....... I think that would be true for everyone really, because if none of us desired sex... we wouldn't fight about or even care about our SO's having sex with other people.... Yes? Or am I still confused?


Quote:
This sex negativity is all my own. If I was able to wipe the desire for sex out of my mind I would do so without hesitation or regret. To borrow an idea from the Greeks, if I had just agape(unconditional divine love) and no eros(erotic, sexual love), that would be wonderful.
Ok, I can't say I understand you feeling that way-but I at least do understand what you are saying about the sex negativity now.


Quote:
More selfish in the fact that my SO being quite happy with someone does not make me any happier. The rest, I am sorry, but I can't go into too much detail about. It has to do with my SO's ex-husband. He did more to make me question my judgement about people, my faith in the idea of "basic goodness" and a lot of other things than most.
Hmmm I don't know if I agree that you are being more selfish. If my SO were quite happy with someone else to the point of minimizing our relationship I think I would not be happy either, I certainly wouldn't be happier....
It's one thing to do something simply to make someone else happy-but as we were discussing on some other thread somewhere this week-there has to be a level of give and take for a RELATIONSHIP to exist.

Quote:
It is more accurate to say that I found out that the happy feeling comes when I do inexpensive things(such as volunteer or give some money to charity) but when I give when it really, really hurts, all I feel is hollow and a little stupid.
Well.... frankly I think this is not selfish or "bad" either....It would really hurt if I ran out and pushed my child from the road and I got hit by a mac truck. If I lived through it (God forbid) I think I'd feel good about it even though it really really hurt.
BUT-if I give up on having my needs met in a relationship, but stay in the relationship, just so the other person can get all of their needs met, I would feel hollow and stupid (which I know because I've done it before). Furthermore-it wouldn't be healthy for me or the other person for me to do that...

Quote:
Joseph Goebbels Reich Minister of Propaganda for Germany, 1933-1945. About two weeks ago I saw a movie called "The Goebbels Experiment" which was basically readings from his diary. I found myself really relating to him as he talked about his life, days, and feelings(some things reminded me of things that I thought and felt, days that I lived). I also realized that when I think of the people I really admire such as Gandhi, MLK, or the Dalai Lama, that I just didn't get them. If I had remained monogamous, he would be just as much a mystery now as he was 5 years ago and I am pretty sure that I would be much happier in my ignorance.
Hmmmm. Ok, on that note I'm not sure if I want to look into him or not.


Quote:
It's ok. One thing that I want to make abundantly clear. I do not believe that my experience with poly is definitive or indicative. If anything, I consider it illustrative of the potential pitfalls of self knowledge.
Makes perfect sense to me. I think one of the key ways to avoid falling into a potential pit is to know it's there. Thus all my "nosy" questions.
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  #36  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:31 AM
DharmaBum23 DharmaBum23 is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Hysterical! I hae a habit of over-explaining too!
TY. It is hard to reach the perfect balance, but I still try. However, I find that an assumption of good faith helps a lot. Hence why I didn't take offense. I assumed you were acting in good faith. You, it seems are doing the same. With a difficult subject it helps a great deal.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Ouch. That's heartbreaking!
Yeah. It would almost be easier if I didn't know how she felt and/or I didn't care for the guy in question. However, such is not the case. I used to pride myself on being able to get along well with the people that I'm not physically intimate with in poly relationships.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Welll....... I think that would be true for everyone really, because if none of us desired sex... we wouldn't fight about or even care about our SO's having sex with other people.... Yes? Or am I still confused?
You are on the right track, but it is even more than that. When I think back on my dating past, since my first kiss right up until today, every poor relationship decision I have made, without exception, is because of sexual desire. Every girl that I started dating who was a bad fit, every girl that I kept dating when I shouldn't have, every girl I stopped dating who was a good fit, all because of sex. As it stands, I am not really so concerned about my SO having sex with other people. I don't have a whole lot of emotional needs and, if worse comes to worse, I can hire a therapist. If I need physical touch, I can go to a cuddle party. Whatever the needs I have are, I can finagle, think, or buy my way out of it and it be totally ethical. Except one.

Before I was poly it was only extremely irritating because love and other people weren't on the line. With poly there are other people on the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Ok, I can't say I understand you feeling that way-but I at least do understand what you are saying about the sex negativity now.
See? It's all very internally consistent. That is not to say that I'm saying I'm 100% right, but I do claim internal consistency.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Well.... frankly I think this is not selfish or "bad" either....It would really hurt if I ran out and pushed my child from the road and I got hit by a mac truck. If I lived through it (God forbid) I think I'd feel good about it even though it really really hurt.
BUT-if I give up on having my needs met in a relationship, but stay in the relationship, just so the other person can get all of their needs met, I would feel hollow and stupid (which I know because I've done it before). Furthermore-it wouldn't be healthy for me or the other person for me to do that...
Y'see, that's the punchline. Right now I'm pretty much superfluous as far as meeting her needs. She doesn't really have any sexual needs, she has someone else she cohabitates with, and she has other people for social stuff. The primary need I fill for her is venting and mental crisis control. Much like my other female friends.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

Hmmmm. Ok, on that note I'm not sure if I want to look into him or not.
Well, I can sum it up for you quickly and cleanly. He is just as much of a monster as you think he is. Perhaps even more.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Makes perfect sense to me. I think one of the key ways to avoid falling into a potential pit is to know it's there. Thus all my "nosy" questions.
Well, if I can tell you anything, it would be this. Do not assume that the worst could happen, but do not assume it won't either. Be prepared either way.
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  #37  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:32 AM
DharmaBum23 DharmaBum23 is offline
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I can relate Life would be way simpler LOL...Not as much fun perhaps

It's true, it's true. Few things are as titilating as eros, it seems.
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  #38  
Old 09-14-2010, 03:56 AM
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Dharma-

I don't have time to reply right at the moment.
But I wnated to quickly say-I really am enjoying talking with you!
I like your attitude and I like your sense of responsibility in conversation!


It's very nice to "meet" you!!!
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  #39  
Old 09-14-2010, 06:00 AM
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DharmaBum23, thanks for opening up. I read with much interest.
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  #40  
Old 09-14-2010, 02:40 PM
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Default not sure it's worth it

It's a relief to read that at least one other person doesn't think poly was worth it. I thought I was doing pretty well for a while, having a girlfriend in addition to my wife for almost a year. But then things blew up and I almost lost them both. The girlfriend (who I just broke up with) started demanding more and more of my time, and seemed to care less about respecting my marriage and more about getting her own needs met. I'm filled with sadness and disappointment that someone who I thought really cared about me could turn out to be so cold-hearted.

I know that my bad experience is more about one particular individual and less about poly in general, but I know that the reason I didn't see her true character sooner was because I was (and probably still am) in love with her. Trying to make rational decisions and balance multiple relationships while being crazy in love and having hot sex with a new person is really hard. The chances of error seem very high, and since I'm already in a relatively happy and stable marriage, I have a lot to lose.

Just not sure it's worth it, for me.
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