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  #11  
Old 08-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.
Sure it could be characterized like that. Feel free to do so. It's a lot easier to do that than to listen to the concerns of those who may be on the other side of that. And this isn't about people trying to convert anyone. It's about people who offer differing perspectives that tend to be invalidated here if those perspectives don't sit well with others.

Either way, you're free to do with it what you wish.



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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.
And I look around here and see something different. Based on that, I'd have to say that I find this criticism of my point lacking.



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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.
At what point did I say that everyone should be happy here? I didn't. I just pointed out where the boundaries are.



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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.
Playing nicely and not playing nicely can show up in all sorts of subtle ways. I find it interesting that certain people here seem to catch shit in order to protect others here from catching shit. And whether or not it's the place for me is irrelevant. If you're happy with such spurious and selective standards then clearly this is the right place to be, which is why I suggested that this is not a good place for the poly community as a whole, but good for a subset of the community.

I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people. Or you can say "screw them". There are all sorts of ways to build a community, and if that's the kind of online community you want to build here, then more power to you.
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.
Interesting. I'm not actually talking about people screaming or cussing others out willy nilly. I'm talking about how accepting the general culture is. To bring it to extreme examples is a straw man argument. Besides, who's dinner party? Different people have different ideas of what polite dinner party conversation is. Some people aren't allowed to swear at all, others are. Either way, it's a spurious argument at best. It's saying that people who have experienced insult must be polite about how they've been insulted. That's not always the best way to respond. Being authentic with your anger is not the same is throwing out "fuck you's" willy nilly. Yet it does tend to come to that when people here are chastised (and by chastised, I mean told by the community as a whole that they have no business expressing their feelings on the matter) for being angry at something long before it gets there.


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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.
Again, not the point I'm making. The dynamic is much more subtle than that.


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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.
And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands. Most people don't even know they're doing this. But generally, this is not a space where people can be called out on their ignorance without it turning into some drama. There are other boards that have a much more mature approach to it and where there can be a much more diverse community that can safely coexist.

If you want to be proud of your exclusivity, more power to you.
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:08 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Ceoli, I hear a lot of bitterness in your posts.

What do you see as the acceptable model of polyamory here, that you find so disturbing?

Myself, I see most ppl here as having some sort of poly-fidelitous arrangement. But I do see some ethical sluts such as myself here as well.

I look forward to the day where I may find such another person... right now I am content with deep love with my girlfriend, and my search for other ppl with whom to share my life on a similar deep level.

But otoh, I am quite happy sometimes to just see one of my boytoys, knowing I will be respected, amused and sexually satisfied from a date with him, whether or not we cook together, or talk about our deepest issues in our lives in much detail, or leave the bedroom to go out on the town together, or spend the night sleeping in each others' arms.

Even tho this seems counter to the expectations of many here, I have never felt judged for my current approach and love/sex-life situations.
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:13 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people.
I don't like this "people" and "some people" parrying. I would like to see naming of names and quoting from messages with examples of "how such things play out". I am probably guilty of this too, without even realizing it, so please do me this courtesy. Please be specific, even if it means "embarrassing" me (not that you would ever censor yourself for MY benefit, but I want people reading this to know that I asked for it).
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:14 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
This may offend some people, but I'll be totally honest. I read some stories and wonder what I would do in the same situation. I read others and say to myself, "Thank gaud that ain't me." Still others I read and recognize myself at some point in my life.
True, that. There are times I ache so much after reading too many of the sad stories from new folks that I just don't have the stomach to try to chase down any of the threads where I'd like to follow the discussion. There are times I want to ask people "Why in HELL are you still involved with that person?!" There are times I despair over the whole human race because of what I read folks are doing to each other in what's supposed to be a loving relationship. It's spilled out into my FB status at times (and my ex-gf thought one status update was about her and the bad relationship she dove into after we split up).

Why did I decide not to stay away after getting my legs chopped from behind? This place helps people. Not everybody will be comfortable here--I've understood that from the beginning and have never made an attempt to appeal to everybody. Some folks won't like it because too many people disagree with them. Some folks won't like it because they can't scream and carry on as they'd like to. Some folks won't like it because they just don't like some of the most active posters. Some folks won't like it because they have a narrower definition of poly than other posters here. Some won't like because they have a wider definition of poly than most people here. Some folks won't like it because it's not a meat market. And so on.

That's OK. There are lots of folks who find this place useful and helpful and that's what keeps me plugging away mostly out of sight working to keep the dinner party going.
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When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:18 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands.
Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.

I also see you trying to lay dislike you have for members here at the feet of the board admin/mod staff. You criticize folks for not taking criticism well--a problem with members--while offering that other sites take a more "mature" approach as if there's some magic wand the staff can use to keep folks from getting pissy in the face of disagreement. The mod staff can do nothing about people getting pissy--we can only rein in abusive behavior in posts.

So, is your problem a social one in that you just don't like the members here? Or is it a structural one and our insistence on civil discussion that offends you?

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the issue is one of folks who don't like some of our members staying away and claiming this site is somehow exclusive because they choose to stay away. I've seen nothing that indicates anything different and the only problem I see with it is that they're offering up their choice as somehow being forced upon them.
__________________
When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:19 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Ceoli, I hear a lot of bitterness in your posts.

What do you see as the acceptable model of polyamory here, that you find so disturbing?

Myself, I see most ppl here as having some sort of poly-fidelitous arrangement. But I do see some ethical sluts such as myself here as well.
Magdlyn, I wouldn't say that I'm very bitter. I do get annoyed with the tone of some of the responses to what I say, but they are just as free to have that tone as I am to express my annoyance with it.

However, community organizing is an important thing to me and so is marginalization. I find communities that actively reject marginalized people to be rather dysfunctional. Since this is a site that falls highly in google searches, it strikes me that there are ways it can be a bit more responsible about examining how welcoming it really is.

As of now, this is a great site for mono couples opening their relationship, strongly couple-centric ways of practicing poly and the general poly-fi model. There are all sorts of ways that these models take up the most space and generally don't leave much space for others. This happens in all sorts of subtle ways that people can either examine or not. If people see that as a fiction I'm weaving or as being over-senstitive, that's fine. If this site is happy with where it is, then great. But it would not be true to say that this site is the place to go for everyone who is struggling. There are many struggling people who would not feel welcome here. There are definitely other sites where alternative voices have more weight. This isn't one of them. It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:23 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.
Nope. I'm pointing out privilege. I'm pointing out that there is a favored way of expression here that is considered fair by some, and not fair by others. It seems that you (since you're saying "us" here) consider it fair and are saying "too bad" to those who may not consider it fair.

I'm saying that not everyone feels the freedom to call out such ignorance because of the need to preserve the "therapeutic nature" of this site. You seem to be ok with that. I hold a different standard.
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:31 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.

We have the same issue in the realm of CF forums. Certain ones are more "hardcore" than others, and even the non-hardcore ones vary when it comes to things like inclusiveness. There is one, perhaps the most "offensive" one in terms of allowing "willy-nilly fuck-you's" as well as usage of terms such as "faggot" and "retard", that has extremely high Google ratings. Other CF forums disagree with the "hate" site that allows everything being displayed in Google as an "example".

I don't put much stock in Google ratings. I tend to think for myself. If something is high up on the Google search results, I always look further. It's a bit insulting to people searching on the internet to assume that they are "put off" from poly just because they don't like the first forum that shows up in Google. It's a bit like saying that they would be "put off" of Asian food because they didn't like the food served by the first restaurant that showed up when they googled "hot and sour soup".
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2010, 03:33 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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What is this CF you referenced, YGirl?
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

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miss pixi, 37
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