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Old 08-10-2010, 08:21 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Default Discussion on Forum Sociology and Interpersonal Dynamics

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
In all honesty though-while I think you are sometimes more blunt than necessary-
I GREATLY PREFER BLUNT
over the game playing b.s. that people play trying to be something that they are not.
The thing is - I hate it when people pussy-foot around something because they "don't want to hurt my feelings". To me, it is insulting, condescending, like saying "you can't HANDLE the truth™ being told to you, so we need to dress it up, put a silk hat on a pig, make things look like something they are not >JUST FOR YOU< because you are not able to face reality". And this is all packaged up as being "kind and gentle". Well, excuse me for not needing that special treatment. I will be hurt or not no matter how you tell me whatever it is you have to tell me. Just get it over with.

And I believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated.

I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:21 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Y-
I happen to agree with you on the "why do we have to pretend we're saying something nice. Constructive Cristicism isn't kissing your ass-it's CRITICISING what you are DOING (wrong imo).

It's ironic-because I've stayed out of the HMA/Violet drama, but I find that in my real life I'm getting some shit for being blunt and point blank as well.

A lot of people just do not want to know what they do wrong. They'd rather just hear the things that they do right-and never know what they do wrong. People like to complain and whine about their life-martyr themselves or blame others for their misery. They don't really want to CHANGE their life/problems.

I've gotten to the point that often-I just don't reply to a lot of the posts anymore-for precisely that reason. I also don't listen or respond to a lot of the complaining by people around me in R/L for the same reason.
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Old 08-12-2010, 06:10 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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K, confession time- for over a year now I have been PMing people on here who seemingly get their back up over your statements that seemingly come out of know where if one doesn't know you. I have been giving them a gentle info session on the subtle humour and not so delicate way you say things.... just to help them understand and give them guidance so that they may not be offended...

I know that you have helped me. My spelling and grammer has never been better not to mention the kicks in the ass you have given me. we are oh so helpful to one another aren't we? Symbiotic for sure!

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.
yup, this would be me on occasion. I am guilty of that and happy to admit. I like that about myself. I actually know when I have had enough and chose to back out of further bashing over the head with not the intent to help or be gentle when I am already beaten, but to make a point of making me uncomfortable and showing me up; kicking me more when I am already down. Call it patronising if you will, but I call it saving face and why shouldn't we have that right?

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.
People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:29 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
HAHA! Oh we are so privileged to of made space for a peaceful respectful environment of safety on the internet. I'm SO glad to have this haven to rest in when I am feeling raw and vulnerable... as most people who come here feel when they arrive on our doorstep... battered and confused.

We should feel so proud to of achieved such high status and admiration amongst our poly community... part of that is thanks to you ygirl, yet you seemingly roll your eyes at the atmosphere along with some of your friends. I don't get it?
Ummm...yeah. Just a reminder that this is actually a very select haven. There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down. And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it. I probably won't have time to reply (as I'm currently leading a week long sexuality education course) but I can say that as an active member of a rather large poly community, both locally where I live and more geographically spread from being online, this place is avoided by many for the above stated reasons.
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Old 08-12-2010, 07:50 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.
I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.


I know it may seem like words like "privileged class" etc are rather strong ways to express it. (Class? There are no classes here! It's an internet forum!) But there are certainly more privileged people than others here. There are certainly people who are more accepted than others here.

There are many ways that people put other people down on this forum without even knowing it. Yet it seems that in order to preserve the "therapeutic environment" here, those who have been put down have the obligation to check their feelings and "communicate compassionately" or "show maturity" rather than be truthful about how they feel for the sake of not making the person who put them down feel unsafe. As a result, they have to be the ones who don't feel safe. This dynamic has shown up plenty of times. I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me. This dynamic is talked about a lot among anti-racist and anti-oppression activists. There is a great article about the the privilege of politeness that sheds some light on it.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:07 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me.
Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite!

Despite being a self-identified misanthrope, I think that the people on this forum are all basically good and trying to do what they believe is right. I question their reasoning and processing sometimes, and I have a tendency to see "elephants in the room" that may not really be there. I explained in this thread why I take the chance that people will be offended by that.

Some of you are already aware that I struggle with the forum "tone" policy. I make an effort to follow it when it comes to my own posts (as far as things like saying "fuck you' to people go). I think it's ok to say "fuck you" as long as we can all move past it and not spiral into "Well fuck you TWICE", "No, fuck you THREE TIMES", "A THOUSAND TIMES FUCK YOU". I don't care if the angry black lady disagrees with that.

Quote:
Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.
And this. This is what I have been saying all along (in the private conversations we've had). I didn't think you agreed with it. I'm sorry if I can't make things right for everybody, but I don't have the kind of control over this place that folks might think I do.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:25 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post

People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.
This may offend some people, but I'll be totally honest. I read some stories and wonder what I would do in the same situation. I read others and say to myself, "Thank gaud that ain't me." Still others I read and recognize myself at some point in my life. It always comes back to this - NOW - it hasn't always been the case: my life is pretty good, not perfect, and why would I want to mess with it by becoming involved with more people? Not very "poly" of me, but that is what I get from this place. The personal, internal knowledge and satisfaction that I'm doing something right. I am not wise; I simply found a good partner in my husband by CHANCE, but it serves as a comparison for the good and bad decisions I have made in the past and those that I have yet to make.

THIS SITE HELPS ME APPRECIATE HOW FORTUNATE I AM. So that's why I have stayed. But it is only one part of my internet social-life. I don't lose sleep over it.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:30 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite!
Yeah. I think we agree on what is polite, but I think there are other definitions of politeness that I take issue with.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:39 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down.
That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.

Quote:
And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.
I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.

Quote:
Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.
I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.

Quote:
Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it.
If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:53 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.
I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.

Quote:
I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.
Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. [/QUOTE]

We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.
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