Why am I here?

Short version is monogamy is not something that works for Hubby and I. Both of us have done things that would break up a lot of couples. Now I want to figure out some guidelines and boundaries and hubby will only talk about it when he's drunk so I never know what he really meant or what he remembers.

Hubbys problem is he likes to ask people on FB for boob shots and get on paid sites and get as much as he can for free, paying up in some situations. Really nothing major to me except he is so secretive about it and will insist he's completely monogamous. My problem is I am falling for a friend who I have played with in the past.

Hubby and I have been together nearly 15 years. In the first few years I cheated on him twice with a different person each time. After we got married, I admitted this to him, which led to our first open relationship conversation. This laid the not so strong foundation. Neither of us were sober. Another conversation a few years later led to me admitting I had... um.. desires he had no interest in satisfying. For the next 18 months or so I had a lot of fun exploring my interests online. There was also a lot of discussion and play with the aforementioned friend, none of it real world. Then I fell pregnant with our 4 yr old girl and my libido vanished. The friend and I went back to just talking and I shut down anything else that was sexual.

Recently, not only have this friend and I started flirting again, but I busted Hubby for wasting our money wanking. I talked to him again, told him everything about how I feel about the friend. He said he didn't mind and that he wouldn't mind if things got physical between the friend and I. Even discussed maybe watching. He told me he was never going to stop the random wanking, but didn't want to find anyone else because he doesn't have time for that. Problem being, once again he was drunk so I don't know what he really meant, well except for the wanking bit.

So now this (so much more than) friend refuses to do anything but flirt and tease ( and torment) until I know for sure what Hubby is cool with. Hubby won't talk sober. Between not being able to get this friend out of my head and not being able to get a conversation out of Hubby, I'm finding myself a little wound up. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Poly does not fix broken relationships. It magnifies issues. Plus poly is hard. It takes a lot of OPEN SOBER discussion and communication. Not to mention time management, energy, resources....

My advice work on either fixing your marriage or move towards an amicable split. I also suggest couples counseling.

I'm unsure what suggests we are broken. A little cracked, sure, and I agree counselling wouldn't be a bad idea. We have a lot of strengths and that's why we're still together.

I know poly isn't an instant fix and has it's own problems. My current concern is honesty and openness. I don't know how to get hubby to see that. Is counselling the best option there?

Hubby and I have enough happiness together and enough reason to work at things that I will put this all aside if I have to. I just want to know if that's the case. I do know it will hurt if I have to suck it up but all relationships have their problems.

Cracked equals broken it just hasn't shattered. If your relationship is cracked and you cannot communicate without alcohol or etc. You are not ready for poly.

I don't have relationship problems. My biggest issue in one marriage is Butch plays World of Warcraft and gets involved in a raid when he knows dinner is being made. And in my other marriage Murf eats my snacks and lets the dog in the bed. I can talk about any subject at any time with either husband without the need for mind altering substances.

You both could benefit from counseling.

Um, this may be a stupid question, but have you actually asked to talk?

"I would like to have an honest conversation about nonmonogamy while sobber,
could we please schedule a suitable time to do that?"

I can see how just hinting at the issue could be easily avoided.

YouStoleMyUserName, hi and welcome.

While you say you're happy with your marriage overall, and that has not broken down irretrievably, it certainly appears to be dysfunctional on a few different levels:

--- By your own admission, you and your husband cannot effectively communicate when it comes to sex and intimacy - at least, not without the dubious "aid" of alcohol.
You don't specify if these are isolated incidences of drunkenness, but from your post I gather that your husband and/or yourself have issues with alcohol use/abuse, or did in the past. Not sure if this has been adequately addressed.

--- When you say your husband wastes family money on "wanking" - something that seems to be a source of irritation to you, understandably - I assume you means he pays to masturbate to phone sex lines and the like.
He also seeks to procure masturbatory material (boob shots, nudes etc?) from facebook friends and/or random women online. The fact that you mention he does this "secretively" or furtively, also seems to indicate this is a bone of contention between you two... which is exacerbated by the fact that he has stated, point blank, that he is unwilling (or unable? part of a sex addiction, perhaps?) to give up this "pleasure", even if it causes you concern and unhappiness.

--- The more or less "anonymous", non-personal nature of your husband's extra-marital sexual exploits (he admits he's not interested in forming an actual relationship with these females sources of sexual pleasure/release) seems to indicate that he is not ready to move toward polyamory, even if YOU are.
He claims he doesn't have the time or inclination to nurture another relationship outside of your marriage, however I'd be concerned he views woman as body parts or sources of sexual release only, rather than as real people with emotions, wants and needs of their own.

---- Meanwhile, you indicate that YOU have unspecified sexual "desires" that your husband is not interested in or able to meet. I assume these fall somewhere within the realm of kink/fetish play, bdsm, group sex or the like.
Of course, one of the main advantages of polyamory is that no ONE partner is required to meet ALL of one's sexual needs and desires. HOWEVER, since it's meant to be "ETHICAL" non monogamy, it's imperative that primary partners can HONESTLY and OPENLY discuss issues, problems, emotional blocks relating to sex and intimacy - and it's vital that this be accomplished while completely clear-headed and sober, rather than having one or both partners make vague allusions to such needs when under the influence.

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As the other respondents have said, above, I also believe you and your husband could benefit greatly from couples' counselling preferably with an experienced sex therapist and/or poly friendly therapist.

I'd also advise you and/or your husband to seek help for issues related to alcoholism or addiction... IF you feel this is relevant and plays into the above issues.

Sometimes people can bury a slew of unrelated, or only vaguely related problems in compulsive behaviours such as excessive drinking, porn/sex/gaming/internet addiction, substance abuse and the like.

These compulsions or addictions may temporarily relieve anxiety, or mask a deeper issue, but may not - in and of themselves - BE the issue. Only a lot of self reflection, reading/research, great communication, honesty... and yes, often counselling... can get to the bottom of this morass.

Your "friend" is right to be wary of getting further involved in a "real world" sexual relationship with you, in the absence of your husband's clear and sober consent. I cannot stress enough that it is VITAL you have these conversations BEFORE moving ahead into another relationship. I also believe it is imperative you address your husband's online sexual behaviour, which sounds a little off-kilter to me. What he is doing is FAR from polyamory and smacks more of voyeurism, porn addiction or even (hopefully not) coercion of what may be unwary women.

Hello YouStoleMyUserName,

You seem to be indicating that you don't exactly feel you can trust what your husband says, unless he says it while he's sober. In which case, you will be stuck in monoland unless and until you find a way to convince him to talk without drinking. If going to counseling with him will do the trick, by all means go to counseling. If asking him directly (to talk without drinking) will do the trick, try that (if you haven't already). Maybe you could explain to him your reason for needing him to talk sober. And maybe that's exactly why he doesn't want to talk sober. He knows he would be committing to something he doesn't want to commit to. Maybe.

I hope you'll post some more to give us more details about the situation, as well as to update us as the situation evolves. This will make it so we can give more in-depth advice, and more updated advice. And if our advice so far is somewhat off the topic you had in mind, maybe you could steer us in the right direction. Or if there's additional topics you'd like us to advise on, let us know. Hopefully we can help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Tinwen - Yep, tried that. Planned a time and everything. Then life got in the way and he's been non committal to a time since. He also works 2 jobs so finding time can be tricky.

Lunabunny - hi and thank you
- Yep, alcohol is an issue. I can't force him into sobriety. He doesn't think he's an alcoholic because he can go without it if he has to.
- My problems with his stupid behaviour are the secrecy and the waste of money. Not having time for someone else was kind of worded poorly. He works an average of 60 hours a week some days starting at 7 am and ending at 11pm, average day being 8am - 9 pm. Top that off with me having epilepsy and our 13 yr old son being autistic, he feels like the time he has off should be spent here with us. I've met plenty of women happy to look at men as nothing more than a penis, so I'm not worried about his drunken boob shot queries. Good luck to him. Oh and there is no coersion. During a drunken convo I have read a few of his attempts, and he couldn't be more blunt and useless at it. His few successes are almost a pleasant surprise. (What surprises me the most is no one else has told me about it.)
- I know what he is doing is far, very far, from poly, but it doesn't suggest pure monogamy either.
- In our conversations the only times I have gotten vague about what I would like is when he has begun to cringe. I spent a lot of time on BDSM forums etc before our girl, and discovered I am particularly warped, well compared to where Hubbys interests go. That's where I did most of my poly reading too.
My "friend" is amazing. He's helped me through a lot of my self discovery. And I know he's right. He's also an immense tease. I know he'd stop if I genuinely asked him to, and I may have to.

Kevin.T
You know when you're drunk and you have a really good idea that future sobriety tells you was really stupid? I worry that he's doing that when we have our convos. I also hope it's a case of being relaxed enough to open up. I won't know unless he talks. But today my mother arrives for 5 nights so we won't be talking in that time.

It sounds like your biggest challenge is just finding the time to talk, what with your husband's difficult work schedule etc.

Does your husband drink often? such as, all the time when he's at home? If there are times when he doesn't drink, maybe you can catch him during one of those times. "Hey honey, the last time we talked about an open relationship, you said you were okay with it. Do you still feel that way now?" Something like that ...

Hopefully you'll get an opportunity after your mom's visit.

I'm sorry you struggle.

Hubby and I have enough happiness together and enough reason to work at things that I will put this all aside if I have to. I just want to know if that's the case. I do know it will hurt if I have to suck it up but all relationships have their problems.

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I think you might have to lay this aside at this time.

You and hubby have not talked sober. It doesn't sound like he wants to have that conversation sober. So to me? You do not have a "joyous sober yes."

To make decisions easier? I go with "anything less than a joyous yes" is a "working no."

• HELL YES! I would love to! = yes
• kinda sorta maybe yes when drunk = no
• yes but... = no
• noncommital/avoiding the conversation = no
• no, fine for others but not my deal = no
• HELL NO! = no

Make this easier on yourself. Accept that at this time? He doesn't want to go there. And since at this time? It's not a deal breaker for you and you don't want to break up with him over that so you can be free to pursue the friend?

You say will set this aside and move forward without it. So set it aside.

I would tell the friend to cool it and stop with the flirting. And on your end, stop as well. Let it be friends only.

On the money front? You might consider having separate use accounts even if they are all jointly held.

• One ear marked for the house stuff.
  
• One for your allowance / fun things.
  
• One for his allowance / fun things.

And then all his wanking fun money comes out of there. So the house money is not disturbed. And you can spend whatever fun money you want on your fun things from your allowance. And then the house money is not disturbed. It would be a pisser if he's spending house money that is needed for bills on his fun stuff. So perhaps separating all that is a solution that could help.

I don't know what to suggest about the drinking problem. It sounds like he drinks a LOT. But isn't ready to see it as a problem.

Galagirl

Youstolemyusername, Unfortunately/fortunately, I feel like I may understand your situation all too well. See this link for a brief overview http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99619

My wife has been a heavy drinker and this has caused what appeared to be ok communication to then become derailed. Let me give an example. Recently I disclosed to my wife that I inherently felt more poly, and this was an important part of who I am. I also disclosed that I had a friend that was very important to me. Very close, yet non sexual. My wife knew about this friend, but didn't know, want to know, the extent of the communication. I wanted this relationship to be more above board.

While, sober or only with a couple of glasses of wine under her belt, we had a conversation and it felt like she got it. She understood that I am somebody that loves to connect with people and having friends in my life is a good thing. Then two hours later, with more alcohol she flips and this is the end of our relationship and is off the charts upset and drunk.

Surprisingly, her awareness of the depth of this relationship has caused her to get sober. She is in an intensive recovery program. I personally have 37 years of sobriety. Within her the light switch has really been turned on and for the first time we are having serious conversations that feel are lasting. We are working towards some type of compromise where we can both be happy, because we truly do love each other.

What does this have to do with you? From my experience, my vibe with my wife around alcohol, and our conversations seem very similar. My wife and I have done the swinging / threesome thing and it has seemed like we have processed some of the non monogamy stuff. Yet with alcohol present, it always seems like she never really processed things completely. The conversations existed, but were never really internalized. There was always a surreal nature to the outcome, like "I guessed we talked about that, and it should be ok now, but why does it not feel resolved" kind of feeling.

Now that my wife is not drinking, our communication and clarity has gone through the roof. For the first time I feel that I have a fighting chance of making our marriage work and still getting my needs met. The bottom line for me is that some type of sobriety has been a requirement. When I say sobriety, I do not just mean physical sobriety. I use the sober as in "sober as a judge". In other words good judgement. I see the possibility that my wife may have a drink in the future, this does not scare me. However, what I need from her is sober and complete communication with a rational person, which is what I am getting right now. Phew.

I also get your seeing value in your marriage. My wife has abused alcohol for years. And yes, we have had enough strong points about our relationship that it wasn't worth throwing away. So I hung in there and just improved my life. So I understand your not wanting to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I wish you the best.

The foregoing advice has (IMO) been both solid & to-the-point. However, I have to disagree with a statement (two, actually) about therapy.

lunabunny said:

... you and your husband could benefit greatly from couples' counselling preferably with an experienced sex therapist and/or poly friendly therapist.

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A "sex therapist" is a doctor who can approach problems of sex & sexuality from all necessary angles. It "aims to understand the psychological, biological, pharmacological, relational, and contextual aspects of sexual problems" & "requires rigorous evaluation that includes a medical and psychological examination." In the popular imagination, it's confused with sex surrogacy (which occasionally is part of the therapy).

However, sex therapy is usually short-term, a "redirect" from error or misunderstanding. Someone who is dedicated to knowingly (as it were) fucking up their life is not yet on any sort of path to recovery.

Secondly, seeking for ANY sort of specialist -- "sex therapist" or "poly friendly" -- when a relationship is exhibiting fundamental problems is readily a politically correct way of stalling until the problem magically goes away, which is not likely.

When someone needs an ambulance, it's not sufficient to make a friendly suggestion they schedule an appointment for a checkup in three months. Instead, they ought to get to the clinic ASAP, & the ER if necessary, & get routed to whoever the hell is available RIGHT NOW. Proper timely intervention can stabilize the situation while a specialist is sought.

YouStoleMyUserName said:

Planned a time and everything. Then life got in the way and he's been non committal to a time since. He also works 2 jobs so finding time can be tricky.

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Though I'm sympathetic with the situation you find yourself in, I need to point out that this is utter nonsense. If he were bleeding or carrying some form of infection or otherwise in obvious physiological stress, & refusing to find time for professional attention, you would in all likelihood be regularly harassing him to seek help.

If you are satisfied with the direction your marriage is headed -- specifically, that would be slowly circling the toilet drain -- then you actually don't need much advice here, certainly not about polyamory. What you need is (first) a divorce attorney, & (second) to decide whether your personal path will include monogamy or nonmonogamy. And if your goal is polyamory, you first need to do a LOT of work on communication & self-disclosure, & certainly ought to begin immediately with both your (for lack of a better word) partners even if one is a foot-dragger at best.

YouStoleMyUserName said:

... life got in the way and he's been non committal to a time since. He also works 2 jobs so finding time can be tricky.

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This is silly. If your husband has time to drink to drunkenness, secretly pay into his wank bank and solicit boob shots on Facebook, he has time to talk with his wife. I own a business and have a 15 year old son with significant autism and I seem to "find time" to have meaningful talks every few days with both my boyfriend and my ex-husband who is a close friend and co-parent. "No time" is an absolutely BS excuse for not having communication that nourishes our souls.

Making excuses for a loved one's crappy behavior and crappy communication is one of the major hallmarks of codependency. So is blaming. So is having to repeatedly tell yourself that you have "enough happiness together" because "all relationships have their problems." So are many things in your posts. There is no good future in trying to get your husband to see anything because your marriage starts with you. You're not randomly entwined with a secretive, uncommunicative problem drinker - you chose him. You choose him again and again, just as he is, every single day. Why do you suppose that is? The way forward is not to make him see the light, the way forward is to start asking yourself why you are so very committed to a man who has "no time" to talk with you completely heart to heart.

Ravenscroft:

To clarify, re: sex therapy: Whether the sex therapist concerned is a medical doctor/psychiatrist/psychologist or counsellor, I was referring to a professional who seeks to help people work through their issues with sexual incompatibility and/or dysfunction... NOT a sex surrogate.

In this particular case, I suggested it because the OP, YouStoleMyUserName says they wish to stay together; that her husband isn't interested in polyamory (either for himself or where his wife is concerned); and because, between them, they appear mismatched when it comes to their sexual needs and desire, kinks, etc. IF they're going to stay together, they're going to need help.

Outside of this arena, I happen to AGREE with you, insofar as I believe this relationship is rife with dysfunction that isn't necessarily related to sex, but INTIMACY and problems of communication, compulsions and addiction.

The husband uses alcohol, work, online sex sites and other voyeuristic activities to avoid truly connecting with the OP/wife, and probably himself and his own emotions. He won't talk (at least not when sober). There are obviously things he doesn't wish to face.

And THIS is why I ALSO touched on the alcohol issue and his attitude toward sex and women a number of times in my earlier post... and suggested he seek help to overcome his addiction/s. A 12-step program would be a good start, however, the OP says her husband is unwilling to go this route.

It is true that the person has to want it for themselves... much like polyamory. It seems that, unless YouStoleMyUserName can get her husband to consider recovery as an option, she won't get much out of him in the way of honest, clear-headed discussion.