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  #31  
Old 07-28-2010, 12:15 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Or it could be considered a tax to pay for future generations that will be wiping the drool off your chin when you are too old to take care of yourself and don't have children of your own to do it.
Interesting. That's the exact type of care I give to other people's children today. Should I get a tax break for it?
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  #32  
Old 07-28-2010, 12:26 AM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Interesting. That's the exact type of care I give to other people's children today. Should I get a tax break for it?
Nope..you should get paid for it which I assume you do. In turn you pay your taxes and feed the machine
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  #33  
Old 07-28-2010, 03:29 AM
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I might be totally wrong here but I thought that public school taxes are paid by everyone because the idea of public education is to educate future adults so that they can be productive in society, to be a benefit to society rather than a drain on it. It's upstream planning, pay some now so that hopefully you can avoid paying more later to support deadbeat adults.

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  #34  
Old 07-28-2010, 07:16 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Nope..you should get paid for it which I assume you do. In turn you pay your taxes and feed the machine
Actually, I get underpaid for it. I wonder who gets to say what has the value in society. My point is that claiming certain things are benefits to the human race in tax break worthy ways and other things are not beneficial enough for tax breaks isn't always going to provide an accurate reflection of reality. It is an entirely reasonable thing to call how the current system works into question without having to discuss the future drool running from my chin as if those who don't have children are going to be future saps and drains in society.

If everyone was really looking out for the future of the human race, then taxes would also go far more into care of the elderly as well as care of children. The fact is that current tax distribution in many places doesn't reflect the needs of the society that it provides for in equitable ways.

(and things such as overpopulation and overconsumption are actual valid concerns that tend not to be discussed. The future of the human race will be a moot point if there are too many people for the earth to sustain it)

And also, for the record, I'm not CF.
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  #35  
Old 07-28-2010, 09:24 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Default Taxes (a little wonkish)

I think that this tax conversation is conflating a couple of different things. Individual nations use tax policy to further that nation's economic priorities, which are entirely seperate from any concern for the species as a whole. Furthermore, this "states as rational actors" summary doesn't even give the whole picture, because many states wind up with counter-productive policy through path dependence, mismanagement, regulatory capture, etc.

To bring this back 'round to being poly- and child-free, those are two groups that are very badly served by tax policy in those countries that I know enough about tax policy to comment on. While not being in any way part of the child-free movement, I absolutely support any effort by either group to advocate for tax policy that better serves them. I'm tempted to go even farther and say that there is a way in which they should be allies in that advocacy, because both groups are opposing the currently privileged nuclear family paradigm, but I think such an alliance is pretty unlikely.
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  #36  
Old 07-28-2010, 09:36 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I'm tempted to go even farther and say that there is a way in which they should be allies in that advocacy, because both groups are opposing the currently privileged nuclear family paradigm, but I think such an alliance is pretty unlikely.
I think the key point here is the idea that the nuclear family paradigm is indeed privileged and there are many ways we could examine how that privilege can create obstacles for people wishing to create alternative family structures including family structures that may or may not include children.
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  #37  
Old 07-28-2010, 10:56 PM
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If one is truly CF, yes, they would have the abortion. That is what abortion is there for. If a guy gets a woman pregnant "by accident" and wants the woman to have an abortion, and she doesn't, then it's too bad, the guy is NOT cf.

The true, real, CF people that I know all are or want to be surgically sterilized (as I am). They also use birth control religiously, sometimes even two or three methods, and if for some reason they got pregnant anyway, they would have an abortion.
I didn't realize CF was so selective and elitist. I'm not sure I want to be in the club anymore, I just want to be happy about not having kids of my own. I realize you're a member of some CF groups and I supposed you've all spent a lot of time defining criteria... but as soon as I hear "The true, real *** people" it starts sounding holier-than-thou, and I want no part of that. Now if you'd said, the "extreme CF people" it wouldn't sound so elitist and offensive.

I completely disagree with your view that if you're CF and you're accidentally impregnated, and abortion goes against your moral code because you value life and can't live with the thought of being responsible for ending a life, then you get kicked out of the CF club even if you give the child up for anonymous closed adoption. I suppose surrogacy for a close friend or family member who can't have kids of her own also gets you kicked out of the club?

The pill has medical complications that some need to avoid, and female sterilization is not a casual procedure. When I was younger, I asked three doctors about getting my tubes tied, and they all refused to consider it until I was at least 30! They all said that unless there were medical risks to getting pregnant, they didn't want to chance that I might change my mind. So I've been on the pill for 12 years, and now my last pap smear came back abnormal, which some studies have linked to long-term usage of the pill providing HPV a better foothold. I don't want kids, but don't want cervical cancer even more!

The only penis I have sex with is no longer connected to its testes, so I guess under your elitist definition, I would still get to be in the club. But take my name off the member list, I don't want to be part of something so exclusionary, just so I can wear some CF label like it's a badge of honour.
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  #38  
Old 07-28-2010, 10:57 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Amen Brother! We also don't get the tax deductions that those with kids get - (which is totally unfair), yet we are forced to pay school taxes if we own property. I really don't get that - if some of us don't have kids, why on earth should we have to pay into the public school system? I've got a vasectomy, when am I going to ever use the school system?

Yet, those with kids get a federal tax break. And this even better - if they have 3 kids, they still pay the same rate in school taxes. Its crazy!!
In 20 years, today's kids will be tomorrow's doctors, engineers, city planners, etc. If only their parents pay for their public education, there won't be enough funding to teach them shit. Then your buildings will fall over, you'll die in the ER, and traffic will overflow.

So when are you ever going to use the school system? The moment they start graduating and you start benefiting from their contribution to society. And when you retire and they're still paying into the public pension system after the Government has long since spent your own contributions, you'll be grateful that they're not all making minimum wage.
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  #39  
Old 07-29-2010, 02:18 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
I didn't realize CF was so selective and elitist. I'm not sure I want to be in the club anymore, I just want to be happy about not having kids of my own. I realize you're a member of some CF groups and I supposed you've all spent a lot of time defining criteria... but as soon as I hear "The true, real *** people" it starts sounding holier-than-thou, and I want no part of that. Now if you'd said, the "extreme CF people" it wouldn't sound so elitist and offensive.

[snippy skippy]

so I guess under your elitist definition, I would still get to be in the club. But take my name off the member list, I don't want to be part of something so exclusionary, just so I can wear some CF label like it's a badge of honour.
I never invited you to join a "club" and there is no list for me to take your name off of. There is no "CF movement", and just because I say something is a certain way does not necessarily make it fucking so. It's not like I have some kind of power or agenda to impose my ideals on to others. I said those things because that is what I believe and it's not some kind of dogmatic manifesto like you're making it out to be. I probably should have said "extreme" or "hardcore" instead of "true" or "real", but whatever. I didn't think you would like what I had to say no matter how I chose to say it, so I just put it out there without mincing words, and I stand by the essence of it. It is not something that requires validation or consensus.

ETA: Having a baby and giving it up for adoption or being an egg-donor or surrogate and then claiming to "be" CF is a bit like having sexual intercourse "just one time" and then claiming to still "be" a virgin. It's just one of those things that once you do it, you can't go back. Maybe I can bend a little regarding the surrogacy if the surrogate is ONLY acting as a carrier for another couple's fertilized egg, but if the offspring is of the host's DNA, then no, the surrogate is not CF.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 07-29-2010 at 03:38 AM.
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  #40  
Old 07-29-2010, 08:11 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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ha! I thought there really is a movement. Is there? sorry, confused now.... it wasn't fucking so ygirl

Don't care what you all say, I am child free for the duration of three days camping! woo hoo.... I am usually the loudest. Louder than any kid!

You can bet we will be those loud campers with kids later in the month though. Only because the adults are loud! Get your ear plugs Heh,

Actually I have a very quiet boy... comes with the territory when there is just one of them in a group of adults... he doesn't get the kid thing very much and keeps asking us to quiet down

Takes all kinds to make a village I think. Seniors and kids and men and women and queers and tranny boys, and kinksters and poly people.....

Really kids are just mini grown ups. They come with all the same attributes. I get a little surprised when people talk of them as if they are some alien creature or some pet. Even was a I was child free I noticed this.... just in case you think I'm talking about after.

The difference now is that I have to deal with the boy every moment of my life. If someone isn't able or wanting to do that, believe me I get it. I wish some days I didn't, but ah well, whatdoIdo.... just deal and deal well.

As for Taxes? Whatever, the boy goes to private school and we still pay for the crap school down the road.
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