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  #21  
Old 07-14-2010, 12:07 PM
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It was an interesting discussion. They were arguing over gay marriage and gay rights in general. It started off with Bible verses. The cons side went with some Old Testament stuff and how some of the New Testament re-emphasized it. The idea was that if God wanted homosexuals killed before and called it an abomination, why would he approve it now?

I pointed out that the Old Testament commandment was to kill homosexuals. So the sinner was technicallly the person who refused to do so, not necessarily the homosexual.

The other Christian pointed out more New Testament stuff like the emphasis on love and not being judgemental. He mentioned that thew New Testament stuff against homosexuality was not convincing since it was Paul's views; it could have referred to pedophilia; could have referred to pagan worship; and/or could have referred to a heterosexual engaging in homosexuality.

The first Christian said that it was not ambigious because it referred to the Old Testament which was very clear. Also, the story about the adulterous woman was not part of the original New Testament and was added later (another Christian mentioned this one). They said it was a moral imperative to outlaw homosexuality just as we outlaw other abominations like murder.

The otehr Christian said it was not like murder since no one was hurt. But the first countered by saying that they were spiritually harmed. They accused the first of cherry picking Bible verses to support and ignore.

I pointed out that the anti-homosexual Christians were doing the same thing by ignoring the other Old Testament laws like killing non-virgin brides or treating lobsert like an abomination. They kind of both agreed that since I was not Christian, that I could not interpret the Bible without the Holy Spirit. However, they both said they were acting in accordance with the Holy Spirit.

In the end, no one was convinced by the other's argument.
How do you do, Quath? Pleased to meetcha. Permit me to respond backwards through what you have to say here.

First, It doesn't matter if you're not a Christian, you still get to read the Bible and make out of it anything you feel like making out of it. I also have the Holy Spirit, Who says you get to.

Second, what is a "lobsert"?

Third, people have always, throughout history, used the Bible to prove their opinions, sometimes going so far as to put their words into God's mouth. There are many ways of correcting that and I'm sure you have your own.

Fourth, most Christians today have finally learned the lesson not to pass judgment on people, and don't much anymore, or try not to. As far as commands in the Bible are concerned, some are false, not to put too fine a point on it. Which are and which aren't? Who would be able to tell you? You have to decide for yourself, and make sure it's your self that is saying, not some authority figure from the past whispering to you what you 'ought' to think.

Fifth, as far as homosexuality being an abomination is concerned, most straight guys are grossed out by the idea of male gay sex. I imagine the ancients were the same, so they reasoned that 'anything that gross' was an abomination, something the Lord wouldn't like. So they wrote it down that way and it became canonized.

Sixth, adultery. A pretty big deal! A big issue. Who cares if it wasn't part of the 'original' scriptures? Killing witches was part of the original old testament. Slaughtering every man, woman and child in a village was part of the original old testament. Hopefully, prayerfully we can force ourselves not to do those things anymore.

Faith is a cafeteria, Quath. You pick and choose what to believe. It's always been so. If you discuss faith with another having a difference of opinion is guaranteed.
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  #22  
Old 07-14-2010, 03:21 PM
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what is a "lobsert"?
Lobster.
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2010, 02:33 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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Originally Posted by catbird View Post
How do you do, Quath? Pleased to meetcha. Permit me to respond backwards through what you have to say here.
Pleased to meet you too.

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Second, what is a "lobsert"?
Heh. Magdlyn caught this. It is a mispelling of lobster.

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Third, people have always, throughout history, used the Bible to prove their opinions, sometimes going so far as to put their words into God's mouth. There are many ways of correcting that and I'm sure you have your own.
I personally do not believe in any gods, so it seem to me that all of it is thought up by people.

Quote:
Fourth, most Christians today have finally learned the lesson not to pass judgment on people, and don't much anymore, or try not to.
I see a large conservative movement that is still trying very hard to push its religious views on others. I think this type of thing is declining, but it seems to be very prominent in some circles.
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As far as commands in the Bible are concerned, some are false, not to put too fine a point on it. Which are and which aren't? Who would be able to tell you? You have to decide for yourself, and make sure it's your self that is saying, not some authority figure from the past whispering to you what you 'ought' to think.
I see the Old Testament as a book written by an ancient culture trying to guess as to how the universe worked. If they lost a war, then it must have been because the god of war was not on their side. So they would try something and if that worked, then what they tried must have pleased that god. I also think that some people wanted to codify their personal beliefs by saying that a god agreed with them. Many liberal Christians seem to be ok with this line of thinking (or accepting that someone could think it).

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Fifth, as far as homosexuality being an abomination is concerned, most straight guys are grossed out by the idea of male gay sex. I imagine the ancients were the same, so they reasoned that 'anything that gross' was an abomination, something the Lord wouldn't like. So they wrote it down that way and it became canonized.
I tried many different ways to argue for homosexuality on one Christian website. I think "grossness" accounted for a lot of views, but they were rationalized by other reasons. For example, they would say that gay marriage should not be allowed because they can not have kids. But bring up adoption, artiicial insemoination, step-kids and heterosexual infertile couples, and they just jump to the next argument without realizing that this was not their real argument.

One attempt was to liken the homosexuality laws to the dietary or clothes laws. So eating lobster and wearing mixed fiber clothing was a sin back then. However, many Christians do not follow these laws today. The rationale is that we have a good understanding of clothes and foods so this restriction is no longer needed. But by the same idea, you could say we understand sexuality better and can ignore sexual rules of the Bible by the same logic. This was not too persuasive.

Quote:
Faith is a cafeteria, Quath. You pick and choose what to believe. It's always been so. If you discuss faith with another having a difference of opinion is guaranteed.
I have talked to many people with varying views on this concept. Some say that there must be one truth and not contradictory truths. Either God exists or not. Either God accepts homosexuality as sinful or not. Either God created Adam from dust or he did not.

But then I also met a guy who said every religion was true. He was Christian but thought that God was Alah to some people and Thor to others. I think he even accepted that atheists were just as correct as Christians.
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  #24  
Old 07-15-2010, 08:52 AM
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Thanks for your reply, Quath, it was quite objective. Generally speaking I like that. As far as what a person believes is concerned the point I'm trying to put out here at the forum is, it has to be what she really believes. If she is clear on what that is. Often we aren't.

It isn't necessarily what you tell people. I'm not saying you ought to lie to people, just saying you don't owe people an answer just 'cause they ask for one. I have some issues with the Bible and with many of the believers you mention 'cause there are many of us Christians who don't go along with every word in the ancient writings, no more the idea that all churches ought to be uniform. I would like you, an outsider, to be open to the idea that I might be telling a true story.
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  #25  
Old 07-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Quath Quath is offline
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I always try to keep an open mind. Thanks for the reply, catbird.
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  #26  
Old 07-15-2010, 09:57 PM
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1) The "bible" as we know it, was translated, and re-written, by the English. (hence the "King James Version")Does everyone know this?

2) Because it was "translated" and re-written, it may have areas which may not be completely correctly translated.

3) With that being said, I am a Christian, and due in large part to being very liberal, I believe that all that I do, is within the confines of the Bible and biblical teachings. Some of the bible is litteral, and some is not. Which parts? God only knows. LOL LITTERALY! LOL
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2010, 11:12 PM
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I highly recommend "The Year of Living Biblically" (can't remember the author at the moment). The author tried to live according to the Bible for an entire year (9 months for the Old Testament, 3 for the New, as that's the rough division of text). He meets with various religious speakers and believers, some of whom come across much better than others.

But the key comment is made very early, when he's speaking to a Rabbinical scholar (I know, is there any other kind of rabbi?) about his project. The Rabbi doesn't condemn or make fun of his idea; he's intrigued. But the Rabbi does point out that ultimately, no one CAN live exactly by the Bible...because we don't know what some of the original words in the Bible mean!

And the minute someone claims I can't read something, because I'm not a part of their group, I tune them out.
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2010, 03:48 AM
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With the astonishing realization of this simple but powerful truth, I understood that Christianity calls me to be a true and authentic person, first and foremost. True and authentic in dealing with polyamory, as much as with anything else.
I REALLY like this Jasmine. It's very much a concise statement of how I feel!!! Thank you for stating it!! I'm going to share it with my husband.
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2010, 10:31 AM
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I feel like there are many parts of the Bible that age well and are really great, inspired by God perhaps. Much of it has to do with love relationships. I especially like the evidence that God is a neuter gender AND can be thought of as female, 'cause I relate well to an opposite sex God.
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2010, 04:00 PM
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Geek Warning!

In the RPG "In Nomine", one of the Archangels is quoted as saying "The important thing is to love one another and not hurt people. Everything else is secondary at best." This, of course, is what truly faithful people (of all religions) have been saying for a very long time. Maybe someday more people will listen.
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