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  #11  
Old 06-18-2010, 09:08 AM
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Smile Thanks for putting so much energy into your reply

I haven't read back over the thread but I am wondering if it was the commonality of feelings that made us seem complaining and whiny. And some people who responded are obviously in different spaces to KT and me. From what I have read she is, like me, essentially very happy in her relationship.

I have no one to talk about this stuff with, this is the only place that there is any understanding of my situation. The few people I have told can't understand why I would put up with the situation. They almost see it as a form of abuse and me lacking something in myself that makes me stay.

I didn't mean to generalize about all secondaries and I'm sorry if it came out that way. J does have a very easy domestic set up, she has worked hard to create it and I know she does have other challenges. I know that it must also be difficult being a secondary. J has so far remained celibate, one of the reasons being that she believes this will save her from tormented feelings when Z ( and maybe others) aren't there (which is most of the time).

But the feelings that have been expressed in this thread are real. It's all very well to talk of love and compersion (the up sides of poly) but we monos have these feelings and I'm sure there is another range of challenging feelings that is common to 'secondaries' (I'm just using this as a label here for convenience of understanding). I think it's really healthy to be able to express these feeling somewhere and have people going through the same things understand.

There is a lot more in your response but I will have to break it down a bit to digest it all fully.

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  #12  
Old 06-18-2010, 09:34 AM
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Default And then there's the dessert analogy

I didn't mean to be rude but In our case Z and J acknowledge that they couldn't have a 'full-time' relationship so to me that means that they couldn't sustain each other. They had the opportunity before I came on the scene. He had left his wife and they were great friends even then.

Some desserts are nourishing, some are not but they have a specialness about them. Like someone said we all need to feel special sometimes and I've very lucky that Z makes me feel very special most of the time.

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  #13  
Old 06-18-2010, 01:34 PM
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[QUOTE=sage;32999]
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And some people who responded are obviously in different spaces to KT and me. From what I have read she is, like me, essentially very happy in her relationship.
She does say that alot especially in other threads. I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
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I have no one to talk about this stuff with, this is the only place that there is any understanding of my situation. The few people I have told can't understand why I would put up with the situation. They almost see it as a form of abuse and me lacking something in myself that makes me stay.
I feel bad for you on this one. Do you think it may be because of the way you are presenting it? I have told several people and I have yet to run into any negative. Perhaps you are presenting as a victim and then they are wondering why you would continue to make yourself miserable? Just a thought. The only negative I have received from the people I have come out to is their concern for my relationship with KT. Not my husband, nor 2Rings. This may be because I present the happiness first, problems aren't the projection I want here.

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J does have a very easy domestic set up, she has worked hard to create it and I know she does have other challenges. I know that it must also be difficult being a secondary. J has so far remained celibate, one of the reasons being that she believes this will save her from tormented feelings when Z ( and maybe others) aren't there (which is most of the time).
Nothing in these statements seem to convey an easy time for J.

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But the feelings that have been expressed in this thread are real. It's all very well to talk of love and compersion (the up sides of poly) but we monos have these feelings and I'm sure there is another range of challenging feelings that is common to 'secondaries' (I'm just using this as a label here for convenience of understanding). I think it's really healthy to be able to express these feeling somewhere and have people going through the same things understand.
Absolutely! Express away. I was just giving you a different perspective and the opportunity to think about what a poly secondary may be feeling, and how general statements that aren't really factual can be misleading.

For me, and I am only speaking for myself, 2Rings is a secondary in your terms but I do NOT consider his love for me any less than my husband's love for me. We do not share domestic duties and responsibilities. We do not have children. We do make time for eachother which in itself can wreak havoc on our lives in other ways (having to deal with scheduling, paying for our meetings/activities, and most importantly the possible-not always- but sometimes reactions of our spouses.) We make time for eachother because that is what you do to stay connected. All the reasons you state as obstacles are just that...obstacles, but mostly ones that should be easily set aside for a few hours each week to connect with your loved one.

I think you should express and vent and tell your story. It is important for everyone. I read mono pov's because I have two in my life. I need to hear their problems so I understand what I need to do. Don't just read mono pov's because well...you know what that feeling is. You are trying to learn and grow, not just commiserate. Important to make the connections of course with KT, AK and Mono etc but also VERY important you consider what you NEED to become more positive about your life.

Last edited by Morningglory629; 06-18-2010 at 01:36 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-18-2010, 01:55 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by sage View Post
I didn't mean to be rude but In our case Z and J acknowledge that they couldn't have a 'full-time' relationship so to me that means that they couldn't sustain each other. They had the opportunity before I came on the scene. He had left his wife and they were great friends even then.
Some relationships naturally suit a prescribed secondary model. Flirty, fun, almost like a mini vacation. Not everyone's secondary relationship is that relaxed, as everyone builds their relationships differently.

Some people on other forums come online looking for relationships AS secondaries. In their head it is a committed relationship without all the ties. Kudos to them for knowing what they want.

Other people view the prescribed secondary term as almost derogatory. As it has the potential to describe the above person, when in fact they do not have a "degraded" role in their relationship. The love is as primary as ... well their primary

And please keep sharing, thats why this forum is here. To put things on the table that need discussing. Different viewpoints and perspectives help process.
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  #15  
Old 06-18-2010, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
Really, this is true for everything in any situation.

I have been known to get into negative spirals. Its creates what I call the toilet bowl affect to the point I can't see positive when it comes my way. Luckily I have friends and a wonderful wife to slap me upside the head when I get to involved in my own misery.

Not only does it affect me, but it can bring down people around me (hell I am a pisces I wear my life on my arm, people ALWAYS know how I feel) which is usually what drags me back out. I always feel very bad when I notice other people are coming down the toilet with me, so I fight to come back.

Btw, not saying here anyone here is at that point, just making a general point about being negative and how it can become a compound injury if not dealt with
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  #16  
Old 06-18-2010, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
Here is the issue I have with this thread...there is a tone here that a mono has some monopoly on relationship hardships. That is completely untrue. And KT I think you can attest to that and have posted on here about the issues 2R and I have had frequently. Also, you act as if the "secondaries" do not have their own domestic responsibilities, and dismiss the fact that those sometimes play on the relationships with your SOs. Not really a fair assessment-especially of how 2R and I relate to eachother on many levels. So as a matter of fact in the general thread, the poly in your relationships have alot more to handle than you are giving them credit. They juggle at least two lovers. They are committed to both/all relationships. They are working hard to keep both/all happy (some poly have to juggle more than two).
MG - as I stated in my post - I can only give my point of view in this situation. I can't speak for you or for the "secondary" point of view - because I am not living it. I do know that you have your own domestic responsibilities - I never insinuated that you didn't. I do know that you and 2rings have your own issues, your own stresses, your own problems. I am often criticized for how long my posts are - so I chose to only present my POV because honestly, that's all I know. It was not a slam against you or a way to minimize the things that you do, experience or bring to your relationship with 2rings. The OP was about the feelings of a "mono-primary" not a "secondary." I do give you credit - I just didn't feel that this was the thread to bring it up. Maybe you can start a thread about how "secondaries" feel and the hardships that they face.

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According to you they see you as their "meat and potatoes"...the staple in their lives, the nourishment that they need, their comfort food so to speak...not only are you commiserating about that role but you are dismissing their significant others as "dessert" -empty and not really filling. Very rude in my particular opinion. I think I offer a bit more to my lover than empty calories and fantasy.
Again - we are talking about OUR roles in our relationships. If this is how you feel - then I think you missed the whole point of that analogy. The fact of the matter is, yes, you and him have issues, problems etc. But you two do not have the responsibilities and pressures of children, a house, bills and the general day to day issues - you just don't. It's not a slam - it's a fact. Do you two have other issues - yes. I never said you didn't. Do I think you are "empty calories?" No I don't - you bring and give a lot to him. He needs you in his life. But you know that your relationship with him is a lot different than your with P. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
You have all stated something to tune of "Don't take this as complaining- because I love him/her to bits etc;" but YOU ARE COMPLAINING!
Have you never complained about P.? You love him - but you still get annoyed with him - right? You aren't completely, 100% happy with everything about him - right? That doesn't mean you don't love him. That doesn't mean you don't want to be married to him. We all have problems and difficulties in our marriages - that's part of life. The point is that you only see 2rings in certain situations. You don't know what it is like to live with him. To raise children with him. To run a household with him. You don't have to deal daily with his quirks and his set-in-his-ways personality. You don't see the same sides of him that I do - because you are in a different part of his life. Again - it's not a slam against you - it's just a fact. If a woman came along and thought that P. was all that and a bag of chips - don't you think you would feel the same way that I do? Wouldn't you get a little jealous that she doesn't have to deal with all of his negatives all the time? It doesn't mean that you don't love him - but you would see a side of him that another woman wouldn't because she doesn't live with him. That is all that I am saying. The grass is always greener on the other side. You want what I have - you want to be married to him, live with him, have children with him. I want what you have - the freedom with him, no responsibilites with him, the time to focus on just each other. But they each come with their own positives and negatives.

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
Now I do not pretend to understand the need for labeling yourselves as primary and us secondary but if that is what you feel is necessary then so be it. But you really shouldn't make it seem as if the relationship or the love is somehow less than yours. I think that is naive on your part. So I would just ask that you not relegate my understanding of how you feel as subpar because I am poly and you are mono.
In my post I used the term "mono-primary" because that is what the OP used in her initial post - not because I feel the need to degrade your relationship with 2rings. Personally, I don't see the big deal in using the terms primary and secondary - because to me, they aren't used in a negative or degrading way - but to show the differing relationships each has. I consider myself 2rings primary because we are married, have children, a house, a dog and more - NOT because he loves me more than you. I am not making it seem that his love for you is less than, or subpar to his love for me - not at all. But the responsibilities, committments, burdens that him and I have are more than you and him have. Just like the responsibilites, committments and burdens that you and P. have are more than you and 2rings have. It has nothing to do with love. He loves you and I equally, but differently. Just as you love him and P. equally, but differently. Labels, in this case, are often used to clarify relationships - not to degrade, put down others or put a hierarchy on love.

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
I agree - but I am finding it difficult to find the positives right now. You aren't in my shoes - so you really can't understand what I am feeling and how your relationship with 2rings does cause me to look at the negative.

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
The only negative I have received from the people I have come out to is their concern for my relationship with KT. Not my husband, nor 2Rings. This may be because I present the happiness first, problems aren't the projection I want here.
You have two people who you love and who love you. That is a big positive for you. For me, I have a husband who loves someone else. I have to give up time with my husband so that he can spend it with you. Those are big negatives for me. How can I present the positive of my husband having a girlfriend? For most people, that is incomprehensible! Most women wouldn't or couldn't put up and deal with what I am. If a friend came to you and said "my husband is having an affair" or "my husband is in love with someone else" - would you immediately look for the positive in the situation - or would you see the negative and feel bad for and concern for your friend? Again MG, it is all perspective and point of view. Are there positives in this situation? Yes, but they are often overshadowed by the negative. For my own sake - do I need to try to focus on the positives more - yes - and I am trying.


I need to run - as I type this 2rings is yelling at me because he's ready to leave and is threatening to leave without me (this is one of those things that you don't have to deal with MG) so I will edit, if needed, when I have time.
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Last edited by KatTails; 06-18-2010 at 04:27 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-18-2010, 05:33 PM
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This is just my opinion, and since I've only been in a poly relationship for a couple of years I don't think it carries a ton of weight, but here it is:

Some poly relationships are inherently primary/secondary. My gf cannot imagine ever living with/having children with her bf. She enjoys the time they have together, but she is thankful I'm the one she's living with and spending the bulk of her time with and could not have the same relationship with her bf. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, but sometimes that's just how a poly relationship works out. I'm not applying value judgments on different parts of the relationship, we could as easily call them relationship A and relationship B, but that can be construed as having a value judgment placed on it too. I'm not saying that all poly relationships need be labeled or designated primary/secondary etc, but calling then primary/secondary does work in some cases because it is an accurate description and everyone involved (at least in my situation) is comfortable calling it that. I'm not saying that it's not difficult and a lot of juggling on the poly partner's part (as I'm finding out). I'm the first one to give my wife full credit for having to balance two relationships and I'm understanding when I feel like my relationship needs/wants are not being understood or responded to, but there comes a point where it's not just a momentary pang of jealousy and it really starts to bug me and I have to voice my opinions or risk feeling resentment for her and her bf, which is the last thing I want.

The concerns and feelings of mono spouses of poly partners may seem like whining sometimes, but if there are hard feelings and they are articulated in such a way that they are not just venting, I would be very hesitant to call it whining and would be much more comfortable asking the question "so what do you want, then?" Again, I'm not trying to offend anybody but coming from the perspective of having to deal with my wife's business, all the housework, my own job, and all the various other domestic responsibilities when she goes to see her boyfriend (in addition to feeling compersion, which I do) can be pretty frustrating, especially since the same kind of weekend getaway type scenarios are nigh on unobtainable for my wife and I. Of course I want to enjoy that aspect of our relationship, and when someone else is getting it and not you, it creates frustration and can lead to jealousy.

Lucky enough for me I have my own relationship with a new gf and I'm now getting those weekend getaway scenarios. Unfortunate that my wife has voiced her frustrations that when I go away she feels like she gets stuck with all the domestic chores. I'm not sure I would call it venting or whining on her part because I realize that yes in fact I am skiving off all the weekend chores to go snuggle with my gf. I'm glad she told me, because now we have both been on both sides of this situation, and it has created more understanding for both of us. Now when one of us goes away for the weekend we get as much of the housework done on Thursday and Friday as we can and that way whoever is going away doesn't have to feel guilty about leaving behind the dirty dishes, and the person staying home for the weekend can enjoy having the place to themselves instead of making it livable again.

I'm not in any way trying to say that my wife and her bf have it easier than me, heck, they seem to have more relationship frustrations then she and I do! As for the dinner/dessert analogy, I apologize if I offended anyone. It wasn't my intention to place value judgments on different positions in poly relationships. I'm just trying to describe how the relationships are different, not that one is more valuable than the other. I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, they both have their own set of frustrations and disappointments and joys and satisfactions. Sometimes you just want what the other person has, that whole "grass is always greener on the other side" fallacy. Again, my apologies if I offended anyone; I'm just telling it how I see it.

R
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  #18  
Old 06-18-2010, 08:51 PM
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Thumbs up that right there is the positive in all this

Sorry there should be a nice little quote here but I can't figure out how to quote just part of a post so I'll have to paraphrase. Lost's wife expressed her feelings about the domestics and they were able to figure out a way to make it better. That is exactly how this expressing thing can work positively. I call it "baby steps", it's like all this emotion comes up and swirls around but when it settles down if you can pin point the specific issue which is upsetting you then you can figure out one practical little baby step that can move you to a whole new place.

After two years of dealing with our situation I can now see positives. One of them is having W in my life as well as in Z's. Z does not do male friendships well. When I met him he literally had a harem of girlfriends (some sexual some not) that were all meeting different needs. I suppose what happened was I was able to meet 80% of his needs so most of the others fell away, but he still needs W for the other 20%. She is pretty much his only real, deep quality friend, she is an amazing person and very respectful of my relationship with Z, as I try to be of her relationship with him. I think our relationship would be less rich without her. Maybe our whole relationship would be missing dessert.

Another positive is connecting with this forum. Because of my personal blog I participate in marriage forums but the quality of discussion and the emotional intelligence which generally exists in this forum far exceeds anything I have found anywhere else. I think to be successful in poly (in whatever capacity) pushes us all to become the very best that we can be in relationship. So I would like to give a big thumbs up to all of us and a thank you to whoever is responsible for setting up and sustaining this forum.


Sage

Last edited by sage; 06-19-2010 at 11:32 PM. Reason: bad grammar and anonymity
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  #19  
Old 06-19-2010, 07:57 AM
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On the plus side I think my wife and I have a much deeper emotional connection because we have had to deal with the hard stuff, the tough decisions, and all the mundane bits of life that get in the way of just having fun.
I think this is an important point.

It's easy to love someone when you have no responsibilities together.

When a couple has to deal with each other's shit, knows how bad it smells, and still chooses to love each other and work on the relationship, that's when you know you really have something valuable.

So maybe it would be helpful for those of you whose husbands have other, carefree relationships, to remember that even though it's no fun to do the dirty work, you're the one he's spending his life with, putting up with your shit (because you know you have it too), and coming home to at the end of it all.

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Some relationships naturally suit a prescribed secondary model. Flirty, fun, almost like a mini vacation. Not everyone's secondary relationship is that relaxed, as everyone builds their relationships differently.
Mono people obviously don't call their relationships primary and secondary, they just have "relationships." Yet, some mono relationships are more committed, with shared responsibilities such as children, finances, household responsibilities. Other mono relationships are more casual, just fun and partying.

Then you bring these same relationship styles into a poly context, and they acquire these distinctions as "secondary" and "primary." But I suspect that these are just formalisms of something that already happens in mono relationships.
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  #20  
Old 06-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Then you bring these same relationship styles into a poly context, and they acquire these distinctions as "secondary" and "primary." But I suspect that these are just formalisms of something that already happens in mono relationships.
Good point s-cat....
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