Bodies, Bushes, and Boats (long)

Hello! I'm in a fairly new (<4 month) relationship that is working its’ way to a triad. It's been wonderful, and scary, and very confusing. Thankfully, "T" and "J"- my guys (also each other’s guys) - are wonderfully supportive and patient with my learning curve. I care for them both- J is this huge hulking guy who breaks rocks for a living and rescues kittens in his spare time, and T is a clever goof who hides this incredibly tender heart. I know they care for me, too: T and J are very interested in making this a long-term closed triad, and while I am interested in that as well, I still have a few reservations, which they are aware of but don’t seem to know how to address.

I've never been one for monogamous/faithful or long-term relationships; in the past I felt much more comfortable ending a relationship before it got hard. It worked well for what I was looking for; pretty much all of my exes and I are still good friends. I have been yearning for something more stable in the past year-two years, but I'm not sure what that looks like yet. I'm a bit afraid that it looks like a dark-eyed giant and a red-headed trickster cuddled on my couch watching Firefly reruns, arguing who would wear Jayne's hat better. They are aware that I’m very happy with the three of us as we are, but that I make no promises for the future. 4 months does not seem like enough time for that, and even though T seems to go around with stars in his eyes and his heart on his sleeve… mine is better protected. I don’t really see that a “solveable” problem, though, other than being extremely clear about where we all are relationship-wise, as well as expectations, needs, etc. I’m not very good at the whole “open communication” thing- I tend to be intensely private and independent- but I’m trying, and learning.

The thing that worries me, that the guys couldn’t really answer, was… and then? They are “out” to their families, friends, pretty much everyone, as bi and poly. J got flack from his family about the bi part, but I guess when he added the poly they basically were like “Oh yeah, I guess, fine whatever” and threw up their hands in despair and invited T and their-then girlfriend over for family dinner. And other than some friends being a bit uncomfortable about it, that was the worst. I can guarantee you that if I told my family I was simultaneously seeing two men who were also seeing each other that my family would probably tie me to a stake and burn me, for my own good. I love my family, but they are very right-wing Christian bible-thumping Catholic types (and here is atheist scientist heteroflexible newly-poly me!). I know T wants me to go meet his sisters, and I want to meet them;I was at J’s family’s for Easter brunch and they were wonderful people. It makes me sad thinking that I’d never be able to have both my family and potentially my other family in the same room, or even really know about each other. How do you decide who to spend Christmas with, the ones you love, or the other ones you love? I’m no longer religious myself, but I value many of my family’s traditions.

I know it’s early days still, but T keeps hinting about future things like eventually living together, and he really seems to think that my family will just kind of get used to the idea. I really don’t think so, and I’ve known them for 29 years longer than he has, since he has never met them. I’m pretty sure my mother would throw a fit if she thought I just had two male “roommates” (“SIN, SIN AND RUIN!”). I’m also not convinced my father wouldn’t just kill them and use their corpses to fertilize his rose bushes, which would be bad (well, not for the rose bushes, presumably).

J pretty much says that “we’ll just take things as they come”, which makes sense to me in one way: 4 months does not a tri-marriage make, to paraphrase. However, his blasé attitude also fills me full of frustration- maybe because it’s frustrating to be patted on the head and told everything will work out when everything is obviously not going to work out. I’m not convinced at this point that J and T and our relationship- wonderful/magical/filled with rainbows as it is- is even worth that risk, but when I try to talk about it, T gets upset that I don’t care enough about him (which is honestly true, at this point I do love my sisters more than him, this is just an empirical fact: if my little sister and T were both drowning I would go after my sister first. I’d cry, but goddamit my sister is gonna LIVE…so I can’t even argue his point) and J just says it will all work out and that I don’t have to feel ashamed for what I feel or who I feel it with. The problem: I don’t feel ashamed; I am afraid that death/brimstone/my mothers wrath will fall on all us. I’ve even had minor panic attacks (not a euphemism; I have a legit panic disorder) while they were over at my place- “What if my mom/aunt/sister stopped by right now?” (it’s not unusual for my family to stop by each others’ places whenever for tea, etc). It sounds so stupid and juvenile, I know it, they know it, but I don’t know how to stop it. I love being with J and T- they are amazing, individually and together, and I think we work really well as a team and we’re only getting better. I feel like this communication breakdown is on my end- I’ve tried to talk to them several times about it, but I keep getting the same rote responses.

Am I really out of line stressing about this so early on? It feels like a very real and bizarrely pressing issue.

I'm sorry you struggle.

I could be wrong, but you seem to be saying this.... (I quote just to visually block it off.)

1) I like being in the triad right now, but I cannot make any promises or commitments for the future.

• J, you are ok taking it as it comes. Thank you.

• T, you seem to want to fantasize a future together before I can really promise it. Please stop taking it personally when I cannot join you in that fantasy. It doesn't mean I do not love you. It just means I'm not ready to go there at this time -- fantasizing about futures. It's only been 4 mos. You can fantasize on your own or with J if J is willing.

2) T and J, you guys are out to your friends and family. You are past that point. I am not out to my family. I am NOT past that point. I don't know how it will go, and past experience with my family leads me to think it will NOT go well. It weighs heavily on me.

• J -- stop telling me to "take it as it comes." I need more concrete help than that in this area. I need think about actual coping behavior that I can do.

• T -- stop telling me that "they will just get used to it." I need more concrete help than that. That's them learning how to cope. Not ME coping. I need think about actual coping behavior that I can do.

• Both -- I need you guys to understand that for me, it might go VERY different than it did for T and J. For me, it might mean estrangement and being cut off from my family. That's the serious "price of admission" I may pay in order to poly. I need help coming to terms with that before I can come out. And before I can become more willing to come out, I need think about actual coping behavior that I can do if it does NOT go well.

• I need for you guys to take this possibility seriously and not sweep it under the rug or dismiss it as a possibility for ME just because YOUR coming out with each of your families went better than that. Could you be willing to see my possible situation as MY possible situation? Could you be willing to have a conversation with me about my concerns at some point AND/OR help me figure out who to talk to about this?"

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To me you also sound like you want to know what you get if you do pay the heavy price of admission.

Are T & J going to be there like they fantasize about?

And do you even want to risk it, for a 4 mos old relationship?

At the same time, how can you relax and enjoy deepening the 4 mos old relationship with this dangling over your head?

Is that where this is at?

FWIW, I don't think it is bizarre. You are struggling with VERY different sets of feelings.

• Happiness that the triad is going well so far
  
• Anticipatory grief if coming out means your family chooses estrangement.
  

Plus hedging your bets and assessing risks for your mental and emotional health. Because if the family is estranged, and if the triad breaks up after that... do you have enough of a friend network for emotional support in that worst case scenario.


I am afraid that death/brimstone/my mothers wrath will fall on all us. I’ve even had minor panic attacks (not a euphemism; I have a legit panic disorder) while they were over at my place- “What if my mom/aunt/sister stopped by right now?”

I see that it bothers you. But you could focus on COPING behaviors rather than doom. One thing you could do is take down the emotional volume. I cut it out from your quote and it reads just fine. But less intense, so you aren't cranking your own self up higher than need be.

And why "defend" what you feel? I believe you that you have had minor panic attacks. Are you always like this? That you have to legitmize what you feel because someone in your life tries to talk you out of what you feel?

It sounds so stupid and juvenile, I know it, they know it, but I don’t know how to stop it.

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That's another thing. Is that what you were taught in your family of origin? You can't just be feeling something yucky (one UGH load) without passing judgement on it like it is "stupid" or "juvenile" to be feeling what you feel (second UGH load)? Maybe that's something to work out in counseling so you can get the anxiety better under control. Single load UGH is enough to process with without making it be double load. Why increase your own load?

As for the family? If family comes over when you already have guests? Focus on COPING BEHAVIOR you can do rather than doom feelings.

• Could answer the door, and tell them you didn't know they were coming, and already have guests and were about to go out with them.
  
• Could tell them to please call before coming over. Set some boundaries. It's ok for them to be bummed out because they assumed you are instantly available any second they are. For them to learn different, they have to have these bummer experiences so they change their behavior and learn to call first.

It would be the same with Mom's anger. It's ok for her to be angry. Those are her feelings. It is NOT ok to rain anger wrath on your head. That is how she chooses to express her feelings. She could choose to express them more appopriately.

You are an adult. She does not have to LOVE every decision you make. She does have to exercise some self control and not rain anger on people's heads because they do as they please in their own adult life. You don't live your life to please her. You live it to please YOU.

You could leave the room, hang up the phone, ask her to get a grip on herself, tell her you expect apology if she does a behavior that is bad, not hang out with her again til she gets herself under control -- many ways to cope with a temper tantrum adult person.

You could see a counselor to help you work this out if you come from a really enmeshed family. Then you have a plan for when you come out that includes concrete behaviors you can do to cope. Help take away from your stress and anxiety. Help add to your coping-ness.

You could ask yourself that. When you do a thinking behavior or an action behavior -- does it ADD to your stress or TAKE AWAY from the stress?

It makes me sad thinking that I’d never be able to have both my family and potentially my other family in the same room, or even really know about each other.

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That's predicting future doom and making yourself sad in the present. What for? Could save the emotional energy.

If you want to ask? Ask. "I would like it if my family any my SO's families could be in the same room and get to know each other a little bit. Are you willing to do that, family of origin?" They can say plain "yes" or "no" or "I need time to think that over."

If they want to add tantrums to it, you could say "I can accept you saying a plain "yes" "no" or "I need time to think that over." I do not accept temper tantrums. You can solve that on your own time."

And then hang up the phone. You don't have to be the "captive audience" for an adult person pitching a fit. You have legs. You can walk away. You have hands. You can hang up phone. It is not your job to do other people's emotional management. They can do their own management.

How do you decide who to spend Christmas with, the ones you love, or the other ones you love?

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Take turns. One holiday with this group, another with this group.

Or... go with the group who knows the PRESENT and today you best. Rather than the group that knows only PAST you, and doesn't want to know the CURRENT you.

Keep it simpler on yourself.

Galagirl

Your summary really resonates with me, GalaGirl. I'm still learning open self expression, and I have to say it's a bit shocking to read exactly what I feel, written up by a stranger!

Are you always like this? That you have to legitmize what you feel because someone in your life tries to talk you out of what you feel?

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Ouch. I see what you are saying but, no, I am not "always like this". I've been dealing with my panic for fifteen years, almost half of that in therapy, and generally manage it very well. I feel no need to justify or legitimize it. However, I had used hyperbole in my previous post (my father would not really use a human to feed his roses), and wanted to ensure that the level of my anxiety was not dismissed as an exaggeration.

Is that what you were taught in your family of origin?

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I've thought a lot about this point today. I know that I don't have a complete skill set in emotional intelligence. My family deals with emotion by praying about it then stuffing it down deep where no one will ever find it... until it explodes. Everything I have learned about expressing myself, emotional freedom, etc, I learned from friends, lovers, and therapy. I think the feelings of inadequacy and doubt I expressed stem from frustration. I have an extensive set of coping mechanisms that I use regularly, just to live a relatively normal life with my panic disorder. I felt that with them, I could pretty much take on anything. Now I find they are not as effective as I expected in this situation, and that is upsetting. I think your suggestion to get in contact with my councilor again is a good one, especially considering the changes in my life the last little while. I actually called her this afternoon, and booked an appointment. That alone made me feel more comfortable.

Your ideas for dealing with family members sound good to me, but I don't know if I'd be strong enough to actually pull them off. I am not great at dealing with family conflict; my brain tends to freeze up and I end up gaping like a fish. I'm much more able to discuss issues reasonably in my other relationships. Patterns of behaviour entrenched from birth are hard to break, it seems. It's easier to build a new pattern with new people, than change old ones. At least for me. Previously, when I had a hard conversation coming up, I've asked a few of my friends to roleplay the dialogue with me. The practice helped me feel more prepared. I think I will ask T and J if they'd feel comfortable helping me with that.

Actually, writing that last paragraph just made me realize- I don't think I've ever asked them for a specific sort of help. I think I was just laying my feels on them and expecting them to "do something about it". That is super unfair. I am responsible for my own emotional health, not them. That doesn't mean I have to do it alone, though. I think they do need to understand my concerns, but expecting them to come up with a solution is silly. I know me better, I know what works for me and what doesn't. Maybe my councilor and I can come up with a game plan, with J and T's assistance.

Thanks, GalaGirl.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I couldn't tell from the post what was hyperbole and what was not since there's not verbal tone or inflection.

Glad you made an appointment with counselor and were able to think of ways to ask T and J for more concrete help.

I hope your appointment goes well!

Galagirl

Hello FeatherFool,

It seems to me that you are stuck in a place where you don't want to tell your family (of origin), but you have to tell them because they could drop by at anytime. And you've only been with T and J for about four months, so maybe you don't know if this will be a long-lasting relationship? and if it's not going to last long, it's hardly worth getting disowned by your family (of origin). Does that make sense?

As far as that goes, I would put some thought into whether you want to remain open to polyamorous relationships even if you T and J don't last. If so, maybe you want to inform your family so they're not shocked sometime in the future when they find out just because they stopped by.

I think that telling your family is optional; however, if you don't tell them, you have to increase your privacy level. Such as not allowing them to just stop by whenever. And coming up with some kind of explanation for why you're not seeing them on Christmas or whatever, if you decide not to see them then. Or go see them without T and J in tow, and possibly deal with their concern that you're "still single."

So telling them simplifies things in one way, but complicates things in another way. Only you can decide which way you want to lean.

Regards,
Kevin T.

Yes, I was feeling a bit trapped between a rock and a hard place. I'm planning on talking this over with my councilor, and taking that conversation to J and T. I do need to work on stronger boundaries with my family of origin. Making and keeping boundaries in friendships and relationships feels much easier, at least to me.

I think I would eventually tell my sisters, if/when this does transition past the "twitterpated" stage to a long term relationship. I think they might come around to accepting it. I'm not sure I'd tell them if we three (or rather, me and them two ) decide to part ways. I'm not convinced that I'm naturally a "permanent relationship forever" kind of person. Up until this point I've been very comfortable doing a kind of serial short-term monogamous FWB; in which case I'm fine with my family living in ignorance forever. In this case, with these men, though, I'm not done with them yet and that is new for me. They are starting to feel like part of my life. It's much bigger and a little scary.

I can't currently imagine what it would take for me to feel comfortable telling my parents. Probably additional years of therapy and a valium drip.

You have about seven months before December comes up. If you're going to out yourself this year, you should probably do it before then. (Just an observation.)

Sorry you are trapped in this predicament.

Definitely don't come out during the holidays! Those times are stressful enough.

Hi FeatherFool,

This part of Kevin's advice resonates with me:

As far as that goes, I would put some thought into whether you want to remain open to polyamorous relationships even if you T and J don't last. If so, maybe you want to inform your family so they're not shocked sometime in the future when they find out just because they stopped by.

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My family of origin is also very conservative Christian, and I can see how some people are just not able to cope with someone being poly (or doing other "sinful" things in their private life). The big difference in my story is that I got disowned by my family before becoming poly, so I had that stuff dealt with when choosing a polyamorous life. Some of my relatives just recently expressed a wish to be more in contact with me. So I came out to them as poly - and yep, they could not take it. No contact continues...

In my case, polyamory as a philosophy and practice is way more important than the family that already did disown me. But I can feel your pain! Being an outcast of the family of origin is not an easy thing to deal with. Hope you will find your solutions and do right decisions in the future!

It sounds to me like you feel pressured by what T and J talk and daydream about. It is perfectly okay to want to move slowly in a relationship, especially in a kind of relationship that is very new to you. At only four months in, it is not unreasonable.

If I were you, I would simply tell them that you are enjoying what is developing in the here and now and want to keep getting to know them and deepening your connections, but that you need them to slow down. Tell them that talks which are focused on the future and holidays and family really feel like pressure to you and are more than you can handle right now. Ask them to "be here now" instead of worrying about "where things are headed" and who will meet whom, etc.

As for your family dropping by without notice, you need to address that with them and ask that they call first, of course.

NB: I gave the guys nicknames since that seems common on this forum, and because "J" and "T" look a bit silly in conversation! Jaeger and Tails it is.


I took GalaGirls' advice (and yours, nycindie), and asked that I not be included in any future "dreaming sessions" until further notice, since I'm having trouble telling what is a lovely daydream and what is an actual relationship expectation. It all sounds like expectations to me. Jaeger was really supportive, and I learned that 1) Tails hadn't realized just how seriously I was taking his casual comments and 2) he thought I'd go "yes one day that would be nice"; it had not occurred to him that I might turn myself inside out with stress. He apologized and fed me cupcakes. I feel hopeful!

If I decide at some point that, yes, this is what I want, absolutely! I think that point would be a reasonable time to confront my family about it. I'm not sure anything before that would be a good idea, in this case. I think the guys are just going to have to go along with me on that one. Maybe I will change my mind later on, maybe I wont, but I've decided my family + my risk = my decision.

Regarding holidays: I've also decided not to worry about that, because it's not worth my time. I think holidays were an all-or-nothing symbol I was using to illustrate "how bad it could get" to myself (me, at Christmas, eating an entire figgy pudding, alone and unloved, woe, woe is me), which is a false premise at best and certainly not helpful. No need to get worked up about something that, in the grand scheme of things, is not a critical consideration at this time. Think about it, fine. Stress about it until I've chewed all my nails off? No. I have better things to do.

Relationshipping takes a lot of thinking and rearranging your brain, you guys. I'm glad I found this forum.

Glad you're with us.

FeatherFool said:

If I decide at some point that, yes, this is what I want, absolutely! I think that point would be a reasonable time to confront my family about it. I'm not sure anything before that would be a good idea, in this case. I think the guys are just going to have to go along with me on that one. Maybe I will change my mind later on, maybe I wont, but I've decided my family + my risk = my decision.

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Yes! That sounds good. There is no need for any upheaval for you regarding your family unless and until you really feel that you've made a long-term choice of leading a poly life. Your guys do sound understanding and supporting, so that's positive.

FeatherFool said:

Regarding holidays: I've also decided not to worry about that, because it's not worth my time. I think holidays were an all-or-nothing symbol I was using to illustrate "how bad it could get" to myself (me, at Christmas, eating an entire figgy pudding, alone and unloved, woe, woe is me), which is a false premise at best and certainly not helpful. No need to get worked up about something that, in the grand scheme of things, is not a critical consideration at this time. Think about it, fine. Stress about it until I've chewed all my nails off? No. I have better things to do.

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Absolutely. Also, you could really take it slow in regard of the holidays. It really is early on in your relationship even at Christmas this year. Why not keep your own traditions for now and celebrate the holidays as you are used to, with your family of origin... then see how that felt and whether a year after that you'd rather stay with your partners? Maybe by that you will know for sure what you want. I applaud you if you are able to stop worrying - that is something very difficult for me (I am learning, though)!

FeatherFool said:

Relationshipping takes a lot of thinking and rearranging your brain, you guys. I'm glad I found this forum.

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Yes, it does. You seem to be doing fine, though!

I applaud you if you are able to stop worrying - that is something very difficult for me (I am learning, though)!

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I'm better at it when I've made a decision on the situation and have a plan. I have many years of practice at interrupting harmful thoughts and rephrasing them to something more beneficial, at least once I've identified them. I still have trouble identifying what to "keep" and what to "toss", though. I think this one is a "toss", until it becomes a more pertinent issue anyways!