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  #11  
Old 06-15-2010, 09:21 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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I can say with great assurance that my desire to share deep intimacy with others -- physical, emotional, etc. -- is in no way as a result of my being disssatisfied with my partner of almost 15 years. It is no indication that I love him any less. It's just how my heart works. I can love more than one person at a time--fully.
I would also say the same...

I don't love my wife any less, and there is nothing inherently missing from our relationship. But I now know I can love more than one woman at a time...
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2010, 09:24 PM
Scaredofcasual Scaredofcasual is offline
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River Wrote:

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I try not to be critical or judgemental of people who enjoy "casual" sex or "one night stands," but I have a bit of difficulty understanding why anyone would want that. Just as you have difficulty understanding why anyone would want sexual openness while in a committed relationship. But differences aren't necessarily indicators of wrongness or badness. What ultimately matters, for me, is ... Am I loving and being loved? Maybe that's what ultimately matters to you as well? And maybe you can allow sexual freedom with your partner so long as he is honest and loving with you?
I hope I can. But how do you move past the feeling of being "not enough" if someone else has to fill that need for them to be satisfied? How do you reconcile being the most important thing in their life with a conditional "a priority" of importance?

I guess it comes down to the intensity of feelings I have developed. I fell so strongly for this guy and I found that I truly became fulfilled and happy with him alone. I didn't need or desire any extra play anymore. Even hot 3some, orgiastic scenes of debauchery just paled in reality to the connection I had within our twosome. I keep feeling like it's a regression for me to try to stoke those meaningless, purely sexual and carnal driven influences instead of cultivating the deep emotional and sexual intimacy we have as a couple.

Maybe I am just monogomously inclined and can't move past the 2=1 idea.
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  #13  
Old 06-15-2010, 09:57 PM
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River Wrote:

I hope I can. But how do you move past the feeling of being "not enough" if someone else has to fill that need for them to be satisfied?
You're only a few months into your first real love experience, as you said. So you have YEARS ahead to encounter and explore semi-conscious beliefs, unconscious attitudes, automatic emotional habits... around love and intimacy and affection..., abandonment fear, engulfment fear.... With experience, you'll come to be curious about yourself in a whole new way. You'll be asking "Well, why do I think this about that?" , and the only reliable answer has to come from within your own experience and inquiry. No external voice of authority will suffice. Getting to know and be close with your lover is identical with getting to know and be close with yourself. And so I offer your question right back to you.: "But how do you move past the feeling of being 'not enough'".

My own answer, which cannot be your own, is to love myself as much as I possibly can, to know that I'm more than enough. Better than enough. That means that I have to hold all of those critical internal voices in a skeptical light. I have to know that they are not me. They're just voices in my head -- many coming from my (internalized) parents, some coming from school teachers or playground bullies....

When I see these as just voices in my head I can know that they are not me, that they don't have half as much power as they seem to when I identify with them.

Practice makes perfect.


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Originally Posted by Scaredofcasual View Post
How do you reconcile being the most important thing in their life with a conditional "a priority" of importance?
If you're the most important thing in your lover's life, he has his priorities way out of whack! Jezus, haven't you noticed that our civilization is destroying the biosphere of the Earth, which is our home? (See latest example in the Gulf of Mexico) But you needn't be second to anyone or anything, either.

But think a while... If you DEMAND to be the most important thing in your lover's life..., well you're sure to push him away. The exact opposite of what you want. Never make that demand. Love is about GIVING more than getting. Give him the devotion he deserves -- no more or less. If you're lucky, and it will be lucky, he'll return the favor.
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2010, 11:14 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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I have merry-go-round mind that is always thinking about having to deal with this issue and when it's going to happen, how I'm going to stand watching him pleasure and get pleasured by someone else other then me. I've been heavily drinking in the day and sleeping more to retreat and I've been losing my natural interest and happiness in the world around me.
Stop before you bury yourself in the booze. It only feels good when drinking your physical response the rest of the time will be increased depression. Drinking is a depressant...

you haven't been looking your natural anything, the booze is taking over...It becomes a vicious cycle. Rinse, drink, sad, sleep more sad, repeat...
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  #15  
Old 06-17-2010, 04:45 PM
Scaredofcasual Scaredofcasual is offline
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Well a lot has happened. We had a huge blowout yesterday which ended up in us finally resolving a great deal of unanswered topics between us and most importantly I came away with a few definite assurances. Overall at the heart of things is a very marked difference in how he sees sex. It might be worth mentioning he's particularly ADHD and has difficulty relating to time in many respects. He has a hard time thinking in terms of past and when and how things happened. They all jumble together.

However that might not have anything truly to do with it, it could just be another way he's hard-wired. Basically he does not see sex as the most basic or necessary component of a love relationship. He thinks it's “jovial and novel” especially when seeing something new that can turn you on, and while he loves having sex with me, he doesn't also see anything wrong with sometimes taking care of himself if he's in the spontaneous mood to do so. He doesn't understand why this bothers me when we already have a situation where I have a higher sex drive and I want him to be as “ready” for me as many times as he can be. Now naturally if we're apart for days on end, I would have no problem with this and indeed even encourage because it's better then doing something elseelse.

But I tried to explain that even as he draws security, support and comfort in the intimacy of me being home every night and cuddling together, I draw it from regular sexual expression together and this is much more to me then physical, it's completely emotional. He simply doesn't connect the emotionalism with sex. He sees it as just biological plumbing and physical fun but hardly anything directly involved or indicative of love and intimacy.

He seems to think this is a common or reasonable way to think, but I can't even wrap my head around it. What kind of love relationships begin in the world without sex being the driving force between them? It's the whole drive of our existence to procreate and form pair bonds. Naturally in later years such things can happen with pure Agape love but for normal, young sexual human beings, isn't that expected natural behavior to equate sex with love at the heart? I simply can't understand how he can so completely separate them. It's part of why this has been such an insecurity issue for me.

The most important thing is he made it even more clear to me that he does not have any definite need to play around, my relationship is still the most important thing and while he'd be happy for me to bring in a third sometime he will wait and will not feel deprived or unsatisfied if it isn't happening. He'd LIKE it but it's not a true priority. I thought I was hearing mixed messages before..but maybe it's possible he has also altered his thoughts and feeling a little and realized what we had really IS more important and he doesn't want to jeopardize it. Even though he professes no natural inclination to jealousy sexually and keeps insisting I could play around with people and it will not bother him, he admits freely that he'd be massively jealous if I slept over at some hot dudes place. Simply sleeping with him would upset him.

Plus when he thought I was writing him a letter wanting to break up, (complete opposite...I'm detailing everything that's happening on his end that makes me insecure and keeps bringing up these feelings of disconnectedness and feelings of not being “enough” for him)...anyway he said back at one line:

“It's always the one who
wants to rush things and rehearses no end of Hollywood style romance
rubbish that winds up sleeping around then skipping out. I'll be upset
and depressed but okay I guess, you I'm more worried about.”


It doesn't sound like something someone would say if they truly felt no jealousy to my mind. I'm wondering if he's just had some bad experiences in the past which he doesn't share with me...I know sweet fuck all about his previous loves..and this is making him shut out all possibility of allowing sexual connection to be the primary and motivating force. Maybe he desensitized himself to it with the many years of casual sex and now it's impossible to go back? Still, I did.
Most importantly I'm pretty convinced now that he's not truly polyamorous. He certainly doesn't want me literally “sleeping” with other people or having separate emotional relationships and I think that would be very central to a Poly's nature.
So he's willing to live monogamously in practice although he hates to use the “label”. Doesn't want to be labeled that way...and just leave the door open for me to allow a third or not completely without pressure. He will not play separate and never has in 7 months. He made it clear he was ALWAYS going to stick by that and never suggested he would break that agreement. He just wants me to lighten up and look at sex more lightly and don't allow insecurity and jealousy to prevent us from having spice fun with guys out of fear about made up circumstances of worry.

I can live with that. With no pressure on me, timeline or suggestion that he will not be satisfied enough to live with just me in that regard, I can follow that path. Maybe in a shorter time then I think I'll find the idea of inviting others in for fun easy.
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  #16  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Scaredofcasual View Post
But I tried to explain that even as he draws security, support and comfort in the intimacy of me being home every night and cuddling together, I draw it from regular sexual expression together and this is much more to me then physical, it's completely emotional. He simply doesn't connect the emotionalism with sex. He sees it as just biological plumbing and physical fun but hardly anything directly involved or indicative of love and intimacy.
There have been too many things said for me to have time to consider and comment on the whole picture very well, but this part I qoute here stood out as something I could comment on.

For whatever reasons, some people have had their heart disconnected from their genitals -- or never made that connection to begin with, or something like that(?).

Ideally, I think, our hearts would be connected to all aspects and parts of our being -- head, feet, fingers, ears, eyes, nose, belly, butt.... Then everything we did would be with and through our hearts. All of life would be a rich heart encounter, a meeting of hearts.

But ours is not this ideal world. And many people are perhaps best understood as either heart-wounded or heart-starved.

Maybe his heart is starved to connect with his genitals, but he doesn't even know it? Perhaps coming to know it would feel traumatic, or even re-traumatizing?

But I'm with you, and like you. My heart is largely connected to my pelvic region. If I'm sexually turned on my heart turns on, and often the other way around as well. Perhaps we're the lucky ones?
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2010, 08:07 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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So he's willing to live monogamously in practice although he hates to use the “label”. Doesn't want to be labeled that way...and just leave the door open for me to allow a third or not completely without pressure. He will not play separate and never has in 7 months. He made it clear he was ALWAYS going to stick by that and never suggested he would break that agreement. He just wants me to lighten up and look at sex more lightly and don't allow insecurity and jealousy to prevent us from having spice fun with guys out of fear about made up circumstances of worry.
Yeah, it sounds like you really need to just take "yes" for an answer and, um, "lighten up". I doubt that anyone I've dated would give exactly the same response that I would to the question "What does sex mean?" and it's never been a big issue. Different people will answer that question differently!
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2010, 09:02 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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I hope I can. But how do you move past the feeling of being "not enough" if someone else has to fill that need for them to be satisfied? How do you reconcile being the most important thing in their life with a conditional "a priority" of importance?
I think the issue is you're taking "not enough" to be a defect in yourself, rather than a quality of his. You're "not enough" but neither would any other one person be. You're as "close to enough" as he could possibly get from just one person.

Analogy: I really love chocolate cake. But I couldn't live on chocolate cake alone. Does that mean chocolate cake is defective? Of course not! It just means that my body requires other things not found in any single food, no matter how amazing and wonderful that food is. Now, pandas can live on bamboo leaves alone. That doesn't mean bamboo is a nutritionally complete food for most critters, it means that pandas have adapted an ability to live on one single food source.

In the analogy, you are to your boyfriend as chocolate cake is to me, and your boyfriend is to you as bamboo is to the panda

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Originally Posted by Scaredofcasual View Post
He seems to think this is a common or reasonable way to think, but I can't even wrap my head around it. What kind of love relationships begin in the world without sex being the driving force between them?
My marriage is that kind of love relationship that did not begin with sex as the driving force.

When my husband and I started dating, we knew right away that we had a very special emotional, almost spiritual connection. We made a point of delaying intercourse specifically because we didn't want ours to be like every other relationship we'd ever had, where it starts with sex and you never really know if that's all you really have in connection or whether there's something more.

We have amazing sex, but we don't have it that often. We prefer other forms of passionate intimacy, especially Tantra. Our connection began and continues to be more energy-based than sex-based. And I wouldn't want it any other way!

I think the words "common and reasonable" are meaningless when it comes to love and sex. Every relationship is different. Reason is irrelevant -- love is irrational.
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

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  #19  
Old 06-17-2010, 09:20 PM
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Nice post, S-Cat!
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  #20  
Old 06-17-2010, 09:41 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Nice post, S-Cat!
hahaha...why not SC...hahaha Sorry my mind is in a very wrong place today apparently, I think it is brought on by these conversations I have been having lately.

I agree though, great post SC
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