Trying for best results in married couple+fwb evolving(?) relationship

So, the reason I came to the boards here in the first place is because I've found myself in a situation that, while I'm enjoying it, I really don't have a lot of experience to use in dealing with. I want to do whatever I can to help it turn out well, but yeah, not a lot of experience in this exact situation.

My wife and I (mid twenties, married 3 years, 3 year old daughter) have been monogamous for our entire relationship, out of respect for my rather small comfort zone. My wife is poly in inclination, but she'd rather be in a mono relationship that I'm happy with than a poly one that I'm unhappy with. For what it's worth, I have told her that if it ever becomes very important, we can talk about changing things, it'd just be probably difficult and the results might leave something to be desired. I'm willing to try, but I don't want any illusion that I can offer guarantees.

Instead, in the spirit of compromise and gradual broadening of comfort zones/experience, we sometimes involve other people in our sex lives. I still have to be there (currently; the rules are always open for alteration as circumstances change) but we've had a few threesomes with other guys (disappointing but informative) and some fun times at parties. Not really my thing, but a great opportunity for personal growth.

That pretty much covers things up to the beginning of the current situation.

A few month's ago it came up in conversation, somehow (I wasn't there), that one of my wife's slightly younger friends (early twenties) would jump at a particular opportunity if I weren't married. Now, I forgot to mention that getting to see me and another woman is an ongoing fantasy of my wife's. But her friend said it would be too weird because I'm her husband, so that was that.

Until about a month ago, when the same friend came over to spend the evening with us. For reasons largely revolving around our lack of a good couch, things actually started with hanging out in the bedroom. It wasn't the official plan, but my wife managed to push both of our anxieties sufficiently out of the way, and fun things ensued. Since then, the three of us have been meeting up at least once a week.

I think the relevant details are: Everyone seems to be having a good, very satisfying time. The friend and I took a couple weeks to get comfortable around each other, but once we did things got surprisingly intimate and affectionate quickly, with amounts of kissing, holding, and eye-contact that are probably in excess of what's strictly necessary for FWB's, along with lots of affectionate texts on off days. My wife has no objection: on a sexual level, she thinks it's all extremely hot, and on an emotional level she's not concerned about how I feel about anyone as long as I still love her.

My wife's and my main concern at this point is trying to make sure that if a relationship that's more than FWB's develops (and we by no means expect/require it to), it does so in a relatively healthy way. We haven't attempted to define anything, because that just seems premature, especially since it's been a very informal thing up to this point. I'm sure if things continue to develop that will change at some point, but for now it seems right to leave labels out of it.

The only concern (other than admitting that I am developing some sort of feelings) that my wife and I have really discussed is the possibility that the friend might at some point get jealous of her. To that end, I've agreed to continue limiting our sexual activity to times my wife is around, because it seems intuitively like that will help keep new developments slow enough that everything can stay stable. And it's not something we think we even need to tell the friend about, because she's fairly shy and would probably not ever bring the idea up herself. It's just something we won't offer until we feel like it's an okay time.

I'm sorry for all the text, I'm just not used to this whole deal and couldn't decide what was relevant. I'd really like to hear what people have to say, about the situation at large, about pitfalls we should be considering, about whether our jealousy "solution" makes any kind of sense, or anything at all.

Thanks

Hi, welcome to the forum and all that jazz! I think most of what you've said sounds like it's going well. I'd only question your logic about one or two points.

Firstly, I don't see how prohibiting FWB from expressing her sexual feelings towards you or your wife 1v1 would prevent her becoming jealous. If anything, I'd argue that it could cause her to feel negatively because she is put under those restrictions. Some would see it as merely being a sexual aid for the couple and wouldn't be okay with that. However, I can see how the rule would go some way to preventing jealousy in your marriage as it gives the spouses an element of control over extramarital relations. Are you being honest with yourselves about who that rule is designed to safeguard? If I wanted to prevent jealousy in a "secondary" partner, I'd ensure that a) our relationship was fulfilling to them; they weren't constantly left needing more from me, b) I respected their autonomy and trusted their word and c) they had the freedom to seek other relationships.

I also think that it is ethical and respectful to be upfront about any conditions that you, the "primary" couple, have in terms of interacting with others. It is irrelevant whether she is likely to initiate 1v1 sex, it is still right to let her know that it is forbidden by you and your wife. I must say, I suspect that the reasons that you are reluctant to tell her lie closer to your desire to conceal why you need that rule to begin with. I have a feeling you both know that the rule isn't really about the "secondary" and that restricting someone's interactions is unlikely to lead them away from jealousy, but you also resent admitting that you two need these sorts of boundaries to be able to explore non monogamy.

On that front, my advice is for you to find a way to be okay with what you can handle: non-monogamous, not quite poly, sort of swinging. And also be comfortable with having the rules you need to maintain that arrangement. It will be difficult to find people who are okay with the restrictions you propose, and it is a risk that the people who do consent to it will do it for the wrong reasons (low self-esteem), but it will genuinely suit some people. Just at least give them the chance to consent to it and refrain from hiding the bits that might deter them.

Hi, and welcome!

I don't have time right now to write a more comprehensive response to your post, but just had to say I found this statement sort of odd:

Simple said:

The friend and I took a couple weeks to get comfortable around each other, but once we did things got surprisingly intimate and affectionate quickly, with amounts of kissing, holding, and eye-contact that are probably in excess of what's strictly necessary for FWB's, along with lots of affectionate texts on off days.

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There is no rule book that states a FWB needs to be limited in kissing, holding, and eye contact, intimate feelings, etc. - where did you get that idea? It sounds swinger-ish.

Are you confusing Friends-with-Benefits with Fuck Buddies? A fuck buddy is just someone you get together with for sex, without much else going on between you, and usually it's someone you wouldn't even want more than sex from (sometimes not even a conversation). It's purely a physical relationship.

However, one can indeed be very affectionate and even deeply love a FWB - I mean, it's a friendship, first and foremost, and don't you love and respect at least some of your friends? The "benefit" is that there is a sexual component, but without a committed partnership-type of boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. Loving someone doesn't mean the parameters of a relationship must change - you can still love someone, look into their eyes, deeply care about them, hold their hands, and share secrets with them without getting on the relationship escalator. It's really nice to have friends you love and care for and can also fuck, but if the term FWB confuses you, try "lover."

Maybe you will find this thread enlightening: not-quite-poly: lovers & friends w/ benefits

First, thank you both for your responses!

MightyMax, I can definitely where you are coming from, and especially after reading some stuff on unicorn hunting, I've worried a little bit about the possibility of backfiring, as well as just generally being unfair.

One point i do want to address is who the "rule" (more a guideline, but not the point) is meant to protect. It definitely isn't meant to protect me, because it only applies to myself and our friend, not to my wife's interaction with her. However, while I personally don't think my wife suggested it to protect herself, I may be being naive, and that's something i will have to bear in consideration. I'll have to think about that.

The other thing it calls to mind is that I've been assuming that my wife and our friend have no interest in being sexual without me ( i do have some reason for this, but it's pretty subjective so i may just be very wrong, haha). Hadn't actually crossed my mind that there is already a rule that keeps that from happening (one of my wife's and my standing rules, which most of our friends, this one included, are informed of, just to be safe). So I'll have to make sure i talk to my wife about that, see if she is even interested, and then we'll discuss how to handle it with the friend based on that. Because i don't think i really care in this situation, and if they're both interested, it seems like that could be a good thing. So, thanks so much for calling that to mind.

I do, however, disagree on the ethical point, because this is not a rule in the sense of our other rules (which again, have already been disclosed just because she's a friend). There aren't any consequences for failing to follow this decision, except mild disapproval, and i don't think we're ethically obligated to be 100% transparent about decisions like that, at this time. You can disagree, that's fine. I'm aware that i don't have the most standard, or kindest, views on ethics, and that's a fact about myself that i don't hide from anyone i have a personal relationship with. But in terms of right/wrong, i feel okay.

Please don't think I'm writing of any of what you said, though. I think it's largely misguided and doesn't apply in this specific situation, but I'm willing to accept that i may be wrong, and will at least take it under consideration. Thanks, MightyMax.

Nycindie, my lunch break is almost over, so i have to be brief, but:

First, thank you for that link. I will tear it when i get off work, it sounds very useful!

Also, the spot you highlighted was largely a turn of phrase, i don't think it's bad or anything. It just didn't mesh with what i thought a fwb relationship was. But at least by your definitions, i seem to have been wrong, and that's good to know.

Again, thank you both! If you disagree with anything I've said, feel free to tell me. I'm sure you're information will be helpful.

Simple said:

....what i thought a fwb relationship was. But at least by your definitions, i seem to have been wrong, and that's good to know.

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A FWB can definitely be someone you love and moon over. I do think of this more as a "lover" than a FWB, but they're largely the same, as was said. My female FWB has told me she loves me and it's sweet - nothing more implied or expected, but just sweet feelings expressed. Personally, i do not know how swingers do it - keep a lid on their feelings. That would be torture and insane to me, as well as asking for trouble. In my experience, the best way to ward off jealously is to open the flood gates and not have defenses up in and attempt to (ineffectually) preserve the marriage relationship. Mighty Max gave some awesome advice in another thread: If you need rules, you're not ready for poly.

Simple said:

I do, however, disagree on the ethical point, because this is not a rule in the sense of our other rules (which again, have already been disclosed just because she's a friend). There aren't any consequences for failing to follow this decision, except mild disapproval, and i don't think we're ethically obligated to be 100% transparent about decisions like that, at this time. You can disagree, that's fine. I'm aware that i don't have the most standard, or kindest, views on ethics, and that's a fact about myself that i don't hide from anyone i have a personal relationship with. But in terms of right/wrong, i feel okay.

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The reason why I think it's unethical is because I know that if I was the person you are having sex with, the knowledge that you have some sort of barrier to 1v1 sex with me, that it's effectively prohibited, would strongly influence whether I consented to this arrangement. ie, I'd stop as soon as I knew you had this going on. I believe that many other people would feel the same.

I don't understand why you seem unwilling to share this with her if you believe it's not a real "rule" and it wouldn't warrant any serious repercussion if it was broken. I cannot understand why it seems you need to feel "ethically obligated" in order to be "transparent" with a person with whom you share physical and emotional intimacy.

Simple said:

The only concern (other than admitting that I am developing some sort of feelings) that my wife and I have really discussed is the possibility that the friend might at some point get jealous of her. To that end, I've agreed to continue limiting our sexual activity to times my wife is around, because it seems intuitively like that will help keep new developments slow enough that everything can stay stable. And it's not something we think we even need to tell the friend about, because she's fairly shy and would probably not ever bring the idea up herself. It's just something we won't offer until we feel like it's an okay time.

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Yeah, I don't understand the thinking here. If I were the friend, I'd feel all kinds of creepy, especially if I were shy! The wife's presence is supposed to "protect" your friend from feeling too close to you and therefor, too jealous?

Simple said:

I've agreed to continue limiting our sexual activity to times my wife is around.... And it's not something we think we even need to tell the friend about, because she's fairly shy and would probably not ever bring the idea up herself. It's just something we won't offer until we feel like it's an okay time.

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Simple said:

I do, however, disagree on the ethical point, .... i don't think we're ethically obligated to be 100% transparent about decisions like that, at this time. ...

...I'm aware that i don't have the most standard, or kindest, views on ethics, and that's a fact about myself that i don't hide from anyone i have a personal relationship with.

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Never mind ethics. (You don't have the kindest views on ethics? What does that mean?) How do you want this to end?

Nobody likes feeling that decisions regarding them and their very intimate relationship have been made for them. Nobody likes feeling that a secret has been kept from them, especially from someone with whom they're intimate, and even more so that two people with whom they're intimate are both in on this together, keeping secrets from them, the third.

It's human nature.

When she finds out or realizes--and she will--that you two agreed to this and made a conscious decision to not mention something that affects her to her, she is going to be hurt, probably feel betrayed, 'less than,' like a toy the two of you used (because we tell things to people, we don't tell anything to a toy--just expect our toys to sit on a shelf until they're wanted). She may well feel greatly enough hurt by such treatment that there may be a great deal of anger on her part.

How long do you want this to last? How do you want her to feel about you, and your girlfriend, five years from now? Ten years? Twenty years? Do you want to hurt her? Do you want to leave her feeling like she was really just a toy to the two of you? Do you want the drama that's going to come with her realization that you two had a 'guideline' regarding her that you didn't tell her?

Do as you will, of course, but be aware that there will almost certainly be some very negative consequences. How you treat her may have very long lasting consequences for all of you, and for the people around you, too.

Hello Simple,

It sounds like one-on-one sex is a barrier for you at this time, it has to be a threesome or at least all three people need to be present. I don't think that's a Very Bad Thing, but it seems a little odd and maybe there's something to look at there. Maybe you want to grow into a comfort zone around one-on-one sex. Not required, just something to think about.

Everything else about your story seems good to me.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

I also don't understand the comment about ethics, but you expressed an interest in having a things progress in a healthy way, so I'll address that.

If you want the friendship with your FWB to be healthy, communicate the fact that you want things to move slow (so slow, you don't even know if you want it to move anywhere at all), and to that end, you're not into 1-on-1 sexual experiences with her right now. That's not a complicated notion. Just be honest and open about it.

Maybe she's really into that. Maybe she's only interested in doing that for a little while. Just give her the information about where you are, and show some grace if/when she chooses to move on.

Or maybe something organic will develop over time. That's a lot healthier than the unicorn hunters who have some predetermined role in mind for someone before they even meet her.

Just be aware that as long as you have some major limits on what you're available for, it makes sense for her to impose her own limitations. She may not make a priority of you, and that's natural.

So I'm off work, and I've had a chance to read things over. First, I want to say thanks again for all of the input.

[I've noticed that I talk a lot below about things I may do, or conversations I may have. Generally, what I mean is conversations that I, my wife, or both of us will have, separately or together, as the situation seems to call for at the time.]

I'm mostly done trying to defend myself here, because really, what's the point? I came to you because I have very little directly relevant experience, and wanted help, not because I need approval. I forgot that for a minute earlier, and I apologize in that extent for wasting a little bit of all of our time.

To MightyMax and WhatHappened, I should probably have said from the output that I'm thick-headed and think very slowly. And speak poorly too, but that's a separate issue. What's relevant is, I see (at least most of) your points. I still don't feel like I have to, or even should, tell her if I am unsure how I feel about 1-on-1 activities right now, because I don't think sharing every uncertainty even when it may not be relevant is the only good policy, or even a good policy, and because she entered into this as a 3 person activity and nothing else has ever been hinted at. I'm under the impression she has her own reservations, but it's just an impression, because she hasn't said anything and I haven't asked her, and I don't think there's something wrong with that at this point. If, and only if, the subject somehow starts to seem immediately relevant, I will initiate a discussion of what my concerns are (after talking to my wife, I'm convinced we're on the same page, so I guess I could say our concerns), what concerns she might have, and we'll make a decision as to how to proceed, together. Is it ideal waiting until it's relevant? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the plan.

To clarify, because I kind of got caught up in the moment up there and am tired of rewrites, while I don't feel like it is wrong or bad of my wife and myself to not have this discussion with her until there is some reason to think that any two of us (of course other than my wife and I) want to spend 1 on 1 sex time, I do feel like having an agreement to avoid that situation and not telling her is, for lack of better words, not cool. So we've cancelled that agreement, and are instead planning on following the above approach of, if it turns out she is interested in 1 on 1 time, discussing our concerns with her (and any concerns she has) and proceeding based on that conversation, however it goes.

So, thank you for showing me the error of my ways, even if I'm pretty sure I don't agree with everything that has been said.

Also, as far as my confusion over FWB's, fuck buddies, and labels, I'm mostly used to hearing that fuck buddies are relationships based pretty exclusively around sex, and that FWB's are basically when you have a friend that you also have sex with, whether regularly or otherwise. I simply had no idea what to call a friend that you have really affectionate sex with (by which I guess I mean sex with lots of kissing, eye contact, cuddling, light touches, etc. Like the difference between a technically advanced performance and one that has lots of style points, if that makes sense to anyone else.), cuddle with, hold hands with, and maybe even kiss sometimes when you aren't having sex. I guess those are still benefits, it just didn't really mesh with my concept of what FWB's meant. But hey, if that still falls into that label, that's convenient, because I wouldn't know what else to call it. Except lover, I guess (which was a brilliant suggestion, thank you nycindie). But the word lover has always creeped me out, for some reason. I don't think I've ever once used that word to refer to someone, and I don't know if I'm going to start now. I'll have to try it on, see if I can get used to it.

Oh, and FallenAngelina, I swear it makes sense to me. But the difficulty I'm having putting why into words probably isn't a good sign. It may just be an example of my intuition failing me; it certainly wouldn't be the first time. Though it still seems strange to me that my wife and I both concluded that it was a good idea completely independently of each other, because I'm once again absolutely convinced that my wife isn't concerned about becoming jealous, and I don't see any reason I would become jealous from spending time with two people.... For now, I'll just have to write it off as a weird idea that doesn't make sense and doesn't warrant acting on, but I'll come back if I ever find a good explanation of why it would be a good idea.

Edit: Yeah, sorry some of that is actually defensive after all. I'm very far from perfect.

Becca, I'd just ignore the comment about ethics. I think slowly, communicate poorly, and was trying to come up with a decent response on a 20 min lunch break via tablet...which wasn't a good idea. Basically what I meant was that I identify as a realist, not an idealist, I guess. That's all. Like I said, it's not worth paying attention to.

If you want the friendship with your FWB to be healthy, communicate the fact that you want things to move slow (so slow, you don't even know if you want it to move anywhere at all), and to that end, you're not into 1-on-1 sexual experiences with her right now. That's not a complicated notion. Just be honest and open about it.

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Yeah, I'm sure that is the best thing to do. I guess communication just scares me (probably because I'm kind of crap at it). And I get hung up on the (probably just reflective of my ignorance) idea that FWB relationships really aren't supposed to go anywhere beyond being friends...who have sex sometimes. I honestly had to consult my wife to figure out if feeling a small amount of romantic affection for our friend (after sex, not before this all started) was okay, or if it meant I needed to be more careful with my emotions. For what it's worth, she said it's fine. But I feel like that highlights how little idea I have about what is and is not okay to do in this situation.

And I assume that she will choose to move on at some point. I might be wrong, and that would be cool, but it seems like the most likely thing. Which is okay. It would just be ideal if the friendships remain.

Simple said:

... I needed to be more careful with my emotions.

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If you figure out how to do this, let me know. I've never gotten the hang of it.

It sounds like you feel a growing affection for your friend and it scares you because it's unconventional and beyond what "fun NSA threesome" sex is supposed to be.

Simple said:

I'm mostly done trying to defend myself here, because really, what's the point? I came to you because I have very little directly relevant experience, and wanted help, not because I need approval.

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Did you expect that 'help' would look like everyone agreeing with you? You posed a situation and asked for help, and you're being given advice from those who have been there and know the likely results of what you're suggesting.

Simple said:

And I assume that she will choose to move on at some point. ... Which is okay. It would just be ideal if the friendships remain.

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Maybe she will choose to stay forever. But few people stay forever as the third wheel. Read enough comments by single secondaries, and you'll see it often turns into a very painful situation. Feelings become very intense when sex and romance and love are involved, and people come to want more. When a single secondary leaves because she is in pain, when she's in love and has been intimate, and still feels like the outsider even to the man she's in love with, to the point she gives up and leaves, chances of the friendship remaining go down.

Not saying it will happen, but it's a very common path. How do you and your girlfriend feel about the prospect of her ending the friendship? Of things going really bad? Of her being angry or feeling used three or four years down the road from now?

And this has nothing to do with 'approving' or 'disapproving' of you; it has to do with telling you how such things may well pan out.

WhatHappened, of course I didn't expect a bunch of agreement. I did expect responses to be less harsh, and seem more like constructive criticism. It's not that responses have been bad, they were just a little rougher than I expected (or I maybe incorrectly perceived them that way), and I didn't take that as well as I should have.

[COMMENT]Maybe she will choose to stay forever. But few people stay forever as the third wheel.[/COMMENT]

I guess I haven't thought enough about this. I've been assuming she'll opt out at some point, probably within the next few months, when she decides she'd rather pursue a more standard relationship with someone, but I haven't put a lot of thought into other ways things might actually go. Or, for that matter, that even after just a few months it might not end amicably.

Not saying it will happen, but it's a very common path. How do you and your girlfriend feel about the prospect of her ending the friendship? Of things going really bad? Of her being angry or feeling used three or four years down the road from now?

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Not great. Not great at all. I don't feel as strongly about losing my friendship with her since it still exists mostly in the context of this relationship, but neither of us wants her hurt, and we'd both be very upset if her friendship with my wife were ended. I also don't want her feeling used, now or in several years.

If there is something specific that you are suggesting will make all of this less likely, I would love to hear it. For my part, I will make certain to discuss the relationship with our friend, and try to get some idea what her wants, preferences, and expectations are, in addition to making mine clear. It seems like a little early to have a talk like that, but we are more than a month into this, so maybe it's not any more.

But, to reiterate, if there is something(s?) specific you recommend to avoid this, that is exactly the information I was after here. Even if it's just the same bit about how rules are bad and only complete honesty is acceptable, that's fine.

I agree with the others. If you want to maintain a friendship after the sex ends...or you want things to possibly progress to more in your relationship, you may want to communicate your expectations. Otherwise, there will be miscommunication, misstep, probably hurt/angry feelings, and possibly destruction of the friendship. I had a friend who was involved with a married couple. The couple had the no one on one sex (except for them, of course) rule. They didn't communicate it to the the woman. She didn't know that it was a rule, cuddled up/started kissing on the husband while the wife was not present but due home at any time. He reciprocated, thinking the wife would join in. Instead, the wife walked in, saw sexual activity initiated without her present (even though there was no PIV or AIV yet.) The wife flipped out, words were said, feelings were hurt, etc. They attempted to salvage the relationship but there were too many hurt feelings all around. Needless to say, when the 'third' realized what happened, she walked away from the relationship. But, there were still so many feelings of betrayal, mistrust, etc, that the couple's relationship was also destroyed. They're divorcing.

OTOH, my current partner, Blue, & I were in a triad with his gf Snow for about 6 months. Blue & I were dating first, then he started dating Snow, we all started hanging out... things developed. We had no rules about overnights or one on one sex. Only rule we had was open, transparent communication.

If you want a sex/friends only relationship with just threesome sex, that's fine. Plenty of people do that. But, if you want to protect your marriage, your best bet is to be open, honest, and up front with everyone about any rules, 'guidelines', and expectations you each have. Anything less is asking for trouble in your marriage and with your friendship.

I don't think anyone intended to be harsh or overly critical. I think it's easy (very easy!) to feel that way when putting oneself out there on such a topic.

It sounds like you feel a growing affection for your friend and it scares you because it's unconventional and beyond what "fun NSA threesome" sex is supposed to be.

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FallenAngelina, you are largely right here. While I had to look up the term NSA (it seemed obvious that you weren't talking about the government spying on me, but beyond that I had no idea), that is kind of the idea that informed my assumption that we weren't really supposed to be having any feelings other than purely sexual ones. I'm not generally concerned about what society at large thinks of my relationships, but that does definitely shape what I assume about the feelings of the other individuals involved.

If you figure out how to do this, let me know. I've never gotten the hang of it.

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If this wasn't rhetorical, my basic strategy would, I think, have had 2 main parts. 1: Outside of sex, I would not allow myself to take any actions that directly fostered anything beyond a friendly relationship. No hugging unless I'm providing emotional support to an upset friend, no hand holding, avoiding cute affectations in written conversation (no excessive use of smileys, for instance), and being careful with the amount of eye contact and types of facial expressions I used. 2: Internally, I would avoid any thoughts that considered her as anything other than a normal friend, and reinforce my thoughts on what feelings were appropriate, and what feelings were maybe awkward side effects of chemistry. I meditate frequently for mental health reasons, so I'm pretty experienced at forcing thoughts out of my head. By avoiding thinking about her as anything other than a friend, and reinforcing the idea that some feelings (road rage, for instance) are just things that happen and will pass, I would minimize my feeling for her.

I want to note that I'm not saying I think the above is necessarily a good idea; it's just the strategy I would have used. I've had success with it in other arenas, and would have been interested to see how it worked here. I am, however, glad that I don't have to do that.

Hi PinkPig, thank you for joining in!

The main reason I feel like my situation is different from what you've described is that, even before my wife and I cancelled our agreement, it was only ever intended to keep feelings the friend might have for me (and their extension into jealousy aimed at my wife) from being a problem. I know my wife well enough to know that in that type of situation she wouldn't be angry. I don't understand it; I myself would be at least a little irritated (though if it were my wife and this particular friend, I'd just go for a drive and ask for an explanation later). But my wife just doesn't get jealous or angry about physical affection for some reason. She might be irritated at me for not following our agreement, and wonder why. Or at least as likely, she'd assume we had planned a surprise for her. But there's no way she'd be angry.

I do, however, increasingly agree that we should really just talk things through and make sure everyone is up to speed soon. It still feels early for a serious conversation like that, but it's been over a month, so maybe it's time to put all of the cards on the table and see how they line up.

I don't think anyone intended to be harsh or overly critical. I think it's easy (very easy!) to feel that way when putting oneself out there on such a topic.

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Also, WhatHappened, thank you for that I'm sure no one meant to, and I'm sure there's a lot of my just being overly sensitive to perceived criticism given the situation (and maybe my personality as well, haha). Thank you for clarifying, though.

Simple said:

2: Internally, I would avoid any thoughts that considered her as anything other than a normal friend, and reinforce my thoughts on what feelings were appropriate, and what feelings were maybe awkward side effects of chemistry. I meditate frequently for mental health reasons, so I'm pretty experienced at forcing thoughts out of my head. By avoiding thinking about her as anything other than a friend, and reinforcing the idea that some feelings (road rage, for instance) are just things that happen and will pass, I would minimize my feeling for her.

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I appreciate your comments on this, because I think you've given me some insight into how XBF thinks--or tried to. As I just sent you a PM with some of those details, I think you can see that it didn't work too well for him.

In all seriousness, the human heart just doesn't cooperate like that. I think he's convinced himself rationally that he's wise and zen and sage and able to 'maintain emotional boundaries,' but his heart can't stop screaming that he wants and needs me.

And though I can only speak for myself, I really think most women would eventually be hurt, as the months and years go by, to realize they're having sex and emotional intimacy with someone who is determined to regard them as 'only' a friend, with someone who is determined to rationalize away his feelings for her. Speaking for myself--it's part of what made me feel 'used' in the end.