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  #21  
Old 05-16-2010, 04:14 PM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL4everu2 View Post
Christie,
Quote:
I believe you are refering to MY post. Where I said that if your husband does not fully approve of your relationship with your BF, then you are, in fact, cheating. I stand by this. I am not trying to accuse or be mean or a finger pointer. However, the fact remains that you said, yourself, that you committed infidelity with your BF. Those were not words I put in there, those were YOUR words.
Warning, your reply elicits a great deal of anger. I will try to keep that in check as I reply. I AM NOT CHEATING. IF YOU READ MY ENTIRE REPLY, YOU WOULD SEE THAT IT WAS MY HUSBAND WHO CAME TO ME AND CONSENTED TO US RESUMING OUR SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. IN YOUR LIFE, YOU GET TO JUDGE THAT; IN MINE YOU DON'T. AND BY BEING SO FORCEFUL WITH YOUR OPINION, YOU ARE IN FACT BEING ACCUSATORY AND MEAN, AND THAT IS MY OPINION.

Quote:
You can feel defensive if you wish. I can not change those feelings within you. Again, I am pointing out facts that you have already pointed out yourself, but that you may be trying to overlook.
TRUTHFULLY, THAT'S COP OUT; "YOU CAN BE DEFENSIVE IF YOU WISH". IT'S LIKE SAYING "I DON'T MEAN TO BE RUDE, BUT..." WHICH INEVITABLY MEANS ONE IS ABOUT TO BE RUDE. YOU DON'T KNOW ME, BUT YOU ARE JUDGING ME. THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF MOST OF MY EXPERIENCE ON THIS FORUM. AND FTR, I NEVER TRY TO OVERLOOK ANYTHING. I'M AS SELF-AWARE AS THEY COME. I HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT CHEATING WAS WRONG ON MY PART, BUT GIVEN THAT I WAS ACTIVELY SUICIDAL AT THE TIME AND FELT LIKE MY DH WOULD BE BETTER OFF W/O THE BURDENS I CREATED, I HAVE FORGIVEN MYSELF AND SO HAS HE FORGIVEN ME. YOU DON'T NEED TO.
Quote:
I am honestly NOT trying to be mean or accusitory here. But if I understand "Polyamory" right, it's about the HONESTY and the love. If my wife were not "completely ok" with a relationship that I had with ANYONE (not just a gf, but a regular friend) I would stop the relationship or at the very least I would stop the actions that she was not "completely ok" with. Now, this is just me. Not everyone is the same. Some people demand full and complete freedom to do as they wish. Is that you? If so, is that the way your husband feels also? Or are you both more the type to give and take? I am the later. My wife is also the later. We make concessions for each other from time to time. This works well for us, as we have been married to each other for 20 years now.
AND SINCE 3 WEEKS INTO MY RELATIONSHIP WITH BF, I HAVE BEEN NOTHING BUT HONEST AND LOVING, FACING THE MUSIC WITH DIGNITY. AND THE WHOLE "COMPLETELY OK" IS BS. I'VE BEEN READING THREADS HERE AND IT SEEMS COMMON FOR SPOUSES TO INITIALLY NOT BE COMPLETELY OK. MY HUSBAND IS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT--IF HE SAYS NO TO BF AND I HAVING SEX, I RESPECT THAT AS I RESPECT AND HONOR HIM.

I TEND TO MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO AVOID JUDGING OTHERS--IS THAT YOU? I CAN HONESTLY ASSERT THAT MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE THE STRONGEST FOUNDATION OF ANY MARRIAGE I'VE EVER KNOWN. AND YOU WON'T FIND A MORE GIVING PERSON THAN I. SO, RESPECTFULLY, I ASK YOU TO TAKE YOUR OPINIONS OF A STRANGER ELSEWHERE.

Quote:
So, I will give you my opinion. (Please remember that opinions are like butt holes...Everyone has one and they all stink) In my OPINION, you are being selfish by trying to keep this relationship going on even though your husband is not "completely ok" with it. He may be telling you to do whatever....But if he is saying, "it's a work in progress", then he is still not "completely ok" with the situation, and is making a concession to you.
THERE YOU GO WITH THE DISCLAIMER. WERE IT SAID KINDLY, IT WOULD FEEL DIFFERENTLY. YOU DON'T GET TO CALL ME SELFISH. SORRY, BUT YOU DON'T. MY DH HAS BEEN DEFENDING ME TO EVERYONE, B/C HE KNOWS THAT THIS WAS ONE MISTAKE I MADE IN A LIFETIME OF BEING KIND AND CONSIDERATE (ALMOST TO A FAULT) TO OTHERS.

AND YOU ALSO MUST HAVE MISSED THAT MY DH IS NOW DATING AS WELL. DID YOU READ MY POST IN ITS ENTIRETY? AND YES, I WAS SHOUTING THROUGHOUT.
To the mods and the rest of the members, my apologies, but he REALLY hit a nerve. I feel that I remained fair and respectful in my anger and thus am going to hit send. If I've burned the bridge for this group, then so be it, but I have taken enough SH*T IRL to take it from some anonymous stranger who doesn't know thing one about me and yet feels the need to express his strong and unkind opinions about me.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2010, 12:55 AM
zooropa zooropa is offline
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Sounds like dh is going thru the pretty normal process of exploring what he is comfortable with after 36 years of only knowing the mono lifestyle.

TL4everu2, if you want to PM me separately, feel free. But let's consider the back and forth on the thread done. Thanks in advance.

-zooropa

Just to be clear, I am inlovewith2's dh.
I heard thru the grapevine that I was being talked about on here and someone was trying to make assumptions on how I was feeling. So I thought I'd join the forum so you can ask me directly.
But the one point to make here and now is that I do not feel like Christie spending time with her oso is cheating on me.
-zooropa

Last edited by NeonKaos; 05-17-2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason: merge posts
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  #23  
Old 05-25-2010, 04:40 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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When it comes to cheating and polyamory, there is a lot of grey area.

In a monogamous relationship, any extramarital sex is cheating, whether or not your spouse knows about it, because those are the rules in monogamy.

In an open relationship, any extramarital sex to which your spouse consents is not cheating, because those are the rules of open relationships.

Consent is the operative word, not knowledge.

Consent doesn't mean liking it, being happy about it, or wanting it. It simply means "giving permission."

Knowledge does not imply consent. Just because your spouse knows about it and hasn't left you does not mean they've given you permission to do it.

There seems to be a misunderstanding over the phrase "ok with it." One interpretation is that it means consent, another interpretation is that it means being happy about it.

If ILW2 means that her husband consents but is not happy about it, then I don't believe that's cheating. If she means that her husband does not consent, then I believe it is.

Since her husband has pipped in and said that he's given permission even though he's not happy about it, I don't believe she is currently cheating.

Disclaimer: This next bit is meant as a generalization and may not refer to this particular situation.

I hate it when cheaters think that all they have to do is tell their spouse that they're having sex outside the marriage, and that "makes it ok" because they're "being honest about it."

Being honest is not the same thing as respecting your spouse's wishes. When an armed robber goes into a bank and demands money, they're "being honest" about their intentions, but they're still robbing the bank.

p.s. screaming in caps lock sounds like a child having a temper tantrum and that's not the best image to portray when you're trying to be taken seriously. Sure, it grabs attention... the same way a screaming child in the grocery aisle grabs my attention... and makes me want to walk in the opposite direction!
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2010, 07:52 AM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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Well, our situation falls under the consent area then.

And as for caps, my apologies, but comparing me to a screaming child seems less than productive. Then again, a screaming child is trying to communicate and imnsho, it is the parents' responsibility to at least attempt to understand the child's pov.

And fwiw, I have never done such a thing in any exchange online (years of experience). This warranted it and you won't convince me otherwise. Insult me if you wish, including thinking that I'm just easily offended. Right now, I'd say you are correct; I'm easily offended--I'm severely wounded by people irl.

IOW my defensiveness comes primarily from the fact that I've been pummeled, left and right, for *our* decision to explore a polyamorous relationship and I just don't need any armchair quarterbacking from anonymous people.

Apologies for the tone. Funny though, I haven't heard anyone call him out for how he was out of line and he was; no grey area there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
When it comes to cheating and polyamory, there is a lot of grey area.

In a monogamous relationship, any extramarital sex is cheating, whether or not your spouse knows about it, because those are the rules in monogamy.

In an open relationship, any extramarital sex to which your spouse consents is not cheating, because those are the rules of open relationships.

Consent is the operative word, not knowledge.

Consent doesn't mean liking it, being happy about it, or wanting it. It simply means "giving permission."

Knowledge does not imply consent. Just because your spouse knows about it and hasn't left you does not mean they've given you permission to do it.

There seems to be a misunderstanding over the phrase "ok with it." One interpretation is that it means consent, another interpretation is that it means being happy about it.

If ILW2 means that her husband consents but is not happy about it, then I don't believe that's cheating. If she means that her husband does not consent, then I believe it is.

Since her husband has pipped in and said that he's given permission even though he's not happy about it, I don't believe she is currently cheating.

Disclaimer: This next bit is meant as a generalization and may not refer to this particular situation.

I hate it when cheaters think that all they have to do is tell their spouse that they're having sex outside the marriage, and that "makes it ok" because they're "being honest about it."

Being honest is not the same thing as respecting your spouse's wishes. When an armed robber goes into a bank and demands money, they're "being honest" about their intentions, but they're still robbing the bank.

p.s. screaming in caps lock sounds like a child having a temper tantrum and that's not the best image to portray when you're trying to be taken seriously. Sure, it grabs attention... the same way a screaming child in the grocery aisle grabs my attention... and makes me want to walk in the opposite direction!
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  #25  
Old 05-27-2010, 07:44 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Sorry, but I've never been a big fan of ending discussions just because they get uncomfortable and people would rather drop it than finish it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlovewith2 View Post
And as for caps, my apologies, but comparing me to a screaming child seems less than productive. Then again, a screaming child is trying to communicate and imnsho, it is the parents' responsibility to at least attempt to understand the child's pov.
I agree that it wasn't productive. It was a failed attempt at making a statement about you without being accusatory. I tried to phrase it in terms of how it came across ("this action sounds like") instead of judgement on you ("you're acting like"). But it came out sounding like when someone says "I feel like you're a jerk," which is a thinly veiled way of just saying "you're a jerk" and not remotely an "I statement" (I'm using that as an analogy, not implying that you're a jerk).

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlovewith2 View Post
And fwiw, I have never done such a thing in any exchange online (years of experience). This warranted it and you won't convince me otherwise. Insult me if you wish, including thinking that I'm just easily offended. Right now, I'd say you are correct; I'm easily offended--I'm severely wounded by people irl.
You say I won't convince you otherwise, but that never stops me from trying! I really wasn't trying to insult you.

I don't feel that it's ever warranted for intelligent adults to scream at each other. It's a sign that communication has reached complete and total breakdown. That warrants stepping away from the situation, allowing your emotions to settle, and approaching it anew from a different perspective.

Quote:
Apologies for the tone. Funny though, I haven't heard anyone call him out for how he was out of line and he was; no grey area there.
At first, without fully reading the thread, and just going by what TL had "quoted" (which, after reading the thread, I realized was nothing more than putting words in your mouth), I thought he had a point.

Now that I've bothered reading everything, I'm changing sides... TL: you were totally wrong. I couldn't find anywhere that she said she lied to him beyond the initial cheating. This is not, by any stretch, the first poly relationship to begin in cheating, and unfortunately won't be the last. Starting in Post #1, all she said was

Quote:
(bless his heart, since he's not totally ok with it).
Which could be interpreted a lot of ways. In response to TL's initial accusation, she said

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlovewith2 View Post
asked my dh what he thought and he said: "it's a work in progress, we are working towards that. And it's complete informed consent." So I feel it is NOT cheating.
And I agree: Husband says it's informed consent, that's pretty black & white and should have been the end of discussion. Only then TL puts words in your mouth, words I couldn't find in any of your posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TL4everu2
No, you haven't. You admit this in fact. You were DISHONEST with him, and got caught, so you opened up to him. HUGE difference. If you were completely honest with him, you would have told him from the outset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inlovewith2
He came to *me* and said that bf and I could resume our sexual relationship. Regrettably, bf and I did initially commit infidelity which began the exploration into polyamory, but since then dh and I have been having open dialogue.
She didn't actually say she got caught. It's obvious from the chain of posts that she acknowledges she started on the wrong foot, but since learning her lesson, has become completely open and honest. For pete's sake, her husband was at a poly meet when the whole incident started!
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:11 PM
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rpcrazy rpcrazy is offline
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i'm glad you made up. Let's all have a group hug and cuddle...lord knows we need it
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:37 PM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL4everu2 View Post
This is what I was referring to. Not to mention that she admits that her husband was "not ok with it". This alone implies that it was cheating. Then, she got "busted" by her mother and yeah...the rest of the story. But the reality was that the husband was "not ok with it" at that point, but lied and told the mother that he was.

I understand that he is NOW ok with it. Thats a different issue entirely.

I'm done here. Her husband wants everyone to leave it as he is apparently ok with it now....So...I'm leaving it alone.
Nope, sorry. I'm fine with others getting the last word as long as it doesn't accuse me of anything or involve untruths. TL4, from the beginning you made assumptions and filled in blanks w/o ever asking for clarification.

You have now assumed that dh only knew about my bf being over b/c my mother busted in on me. Absolutely untrue--dh knew 100% that R was coming over that night and was okay with that. I called him so that my mother could hear that directly from him. The statement about him not being ok was always addressing his general feelings about our poly relationship (even though as I've said and will not say again, he came to me giving consent; I hadn't even requested it).

Oh, and rolling ones eyes to another's truth is great netiquette. And now, you accuse my husband of lying. He acted from the position that my mother was not in a need-to-know. He gave her what she needed to hear to get the h*ll out of our business, and then moved on. Where he is at on any given day (and it still fluctuates) is for he and I to address, which we do.

And now I am done with this conversation.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:55 PM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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[QUOTE=SchrodingersCat;30921]
Quote:
Sorry, but I've never been a big fan of ending discussions just because they get uncomfortable and people would rather drop it than finish it...
I'm glad that you did. I don't like to drop convos, always aiming for mutual understanding and respect.

I
Quote:
agree that it wasn't productive. It was a failed attempt at making a statement about you without being accusatory. I tried to phrase it in terms of how it came across ("this action sounds like") instead of judgement on you ("you're acting like"). But it came out sounding like when someone says "I feel like you're a jerk," which is a thinly veiled way of just saying "you're a jerk" and not remotely an "I statement" (I'm using that as an analogy, not implying that you're a jerk).
I truly do appreciate your intent. Intent is so important.



Quote:
You say I won't convince you otherwise, but that never stops me from trying! I really wasn't trying to insult you.
It's nice to hear that you weren't trying to insult me, and I fully admit that the state I'm in lately makes it hard not to filter things through negative glasses. I had hoped that my sharing how fragile I was feeling, people would be extra careful, but I always know that what we hope may not be what we get.

Quote:
I don't feel that it's ever warranted for intelligent adults to scream at each other. It's a sign that communication has reached complete and total breakdown. That warrants stepping away from the situation, allowing your emotions to settle, and approaching it anew from a different perspective.
You're assuming I'm intelligent ;-). Truly jk, and trying to bring a tiny bit of levity to the convo. ITA that it indicates the total breakdown. That's where we were imo. And not to be overly dramatic, but growing up in an abusive household instilled in me this intense need to never stand by and let myself be mistreated. What I'm learning is that sometimes in defending myself, I open myself up for more salt to be poured into my wounds. And I felt wounded by his words (which is partly on me).

Again, in every single interaction I've had on line, I am for positive communication. Ironically, I've frequently been asked to step in and smooth things over when others get into heated discussions where neither is hearing the other any longer.

I did step away, and fully consciously weighed the decision to use all caps, finally settling on the idea that this was the only chance I had for this man to hear how badly I needed him to stop poking at me. Admittedly, it didn't work, but I stand by my judicious use of the strategy. I know that none of you knows me, so don't know that I'm largely a very reasonable person with strong communication skills. I haven't demonstrated that here as I would have liked.

What disappoints me the most is that now I'm feeling *very* hesitant to post here any longer. And we are so new to this and experiencing challenges, that it would be nice to have this as a resource. That's unfortunate.

Quote:
At first, without fully reading the thread, and just going by what TL had "quoted" (which, after reading the thread, I realized was nothing more than putting words in your mouth), I thought he had a point.
I can see that happening. But being on the receiving end, quite frankly sucked.

Quote:
Now that I've bothered reading everything, I'm changing sides... TL: you were totally wrong. I couldn't find anywhere that she said she lied to him beyond the initial cheating. This is not, by any stretch, the first poly relationship to begin in cheating, and unfortunately won't be the last.
This is completely and totally true.


Quote:
And I agree: Husband says it's informed consent, that's pretty black & white and should have been the end of discussion. Only then TL puts words in your mouth, words I couldn't find in any of your posts:

She didn't actually say she got caught. It's obvious from the chain of posts that she acknowledges she started on the wrong foot, but since learning her lesson, has become completely open and honest. For pete's sake, her husband was at a poly meet when the whole incident started!
Thank You!!! Really, I am working on being comfortable in my own skin and not worrying what others think, but it's not an overnight process, and it feels nice to have someone stick up for me. Sounds childish, but it is how I feel, so I thank you.
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2010, 01:18 AM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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Default Going "too fast" irt our journey

Hi all,

I just mentioned in another thread this concept of jumping into things feet first. Thinking about it, this has always been my style, but I now regret some aspects of it in this case. I do not want to re-hash the whole thread about the origins of our polyamorous relationship, but I do think it kind of explains how it is that we have gone too fast. My husband came to me and consented to my bf and I dating. We did spend a couple of days talking it over, it's not like I then said “ok, see ya!”, yk? I felt comfortable that he was giving informed consent, and he was. What's been happening in his own words, is that he has been saying that he's ok with things (convincingly no less) because a). he thinks he is and b) he wants me to be happy. Now that we recognize this, we are being vigilant about it.

I've explained to him that my happiness can't be at the expense of his own and that his quasi-consent that later blows up is much worse than taking it slower. And honestly, things have happened even faster than I am comfortable with. I joined OKC after a friend mentioned it b/c I was curious, honestly not expecting any attention. I'm not someone who has ever turned heads irl, so why would I online?

Well, I've received quite a few inquiries. I've had several people interested in dating me, that DW and I have now pared down to 2. Both of these men are involved in their own polyamorous marriages and thus are very interested in his input and participation in the relationship.

Actually, I had composed this post several weeks ago, but decided to share it now as I think it sheds light on our journey. We are learning: to be honest about where we are, to ask for our needs, etc. and we are healing. Again, DW watches over my shoulder as I type this (that's a good thing, btw)


Christie
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  #30  
Old 07-19-2010, 05:18 PM
inlovewith2 inlovewith2 is offline
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Default Could a moderator please contact me?

I've tried poking around trying to figure out how to contact a mod with no luck (and my kids always appear when I try to do something for myself!).

I have a concern about the blog that was created for me.

Thanks!!!!

Christie
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