If you are already whole..why date at all?

[Ariakas]

Originally Posted by DharmaBum23

What I'm saying is that if someone didn't need the NRE, contentment, happy moments(poly or otherwise), and so forth that one can gain from dating, it seems kindof odd that they would risk the extreme pain and heartache that can come with dating. Like crossing a gunfight to get your second cup of coffee.

Love is worth all the pain

[NeonKaos]

"Fundamental Happiness" does not have to mean you walk around feeling blissfully ecstatic all the time. It just means you're secure in who you are without needing to be in a relationship to validate it. It does not mean you can't be hurt or disappointed by something that happens in a relationship. Having a bad day or feeling sad ABOUT something does not mean that you can't be FUNDAMENTALLY happy with who you are in general.

I get pissed off ABOUT things quite easily but I'm happy with who I am in general.

It has nothing to do with "crossing a gunfight to get a second cup of coffee". OTOH, if you are THAT afraid of gunfire, maybe you should consider giving up coffee altogether, or perhaps switching to decaf. Stimulants HAVE been linked to paranoia.

[rolypoly]

Originally Posted by Ariakas

Love for me is like an incrementally increasing algorythm...I could program it out it an if function

for (love=1 ; love<infinity; love++)
{
if self=heartbroken
love=love-1;
else if self=heartfelt
echo love;

do while love=0{
learn to love oneself;
}
}

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I love it!

I think it may be a bit more complex. Maybe:

var alive = true;
var selfLove = true;
var single = true;

function relationship() {
do {
for (love=1; love<infinity; love++) {
if (selfLove == true) {
if (single == true && heartbroken == false) {
function date();
love = love + 1;
echo love;
}
else if (single == false && heartbroken == false) {
function lovePartners();
function communicate();
function date();
love = love + 1;
echo love;
}
else if (single == true && heartbroken == true) {
echo selfLove;
}
}
else if (selfLove == false) {
function learnToLoveSelf();
echo love;
}
echo love;
}
while (alive == true);
}



....or something.... LOVE it!

[Ariakas]

See, thats what i said, show a geek code, we can rework it into 1000 lines.

Great work roly, yours covers more of the variables I left out ...glad you enjoyed, apparently I wasnt the only one with a geek moment this morning.

[GroundedSpirit]

Originally Posted by DharmaBum23

....................

What I'm saying is that if someone didn't need the NRE, contentment, happy moments(poly or otherwise), and so forth that one can gain from dating, it seems kindof odd that they would risk the extreme pain and heartache that can come with dating. Like crossing a gunfight to get your second cup of coffee.

Dharma,

I more or less tend to agree with your philosophical stance & approach. And it is VERY philosophical and therefore not one that many large numbers of people will care to even process.

For a lot of people I think "happiness' is defined by a certain adrenalin rush. I often try to compare terms such as "happiness" and "contentment" because if they were not different it seems we wouldn't have come up with two terms.

You often see tossed around a statement (and philosophy) that "happiness is a choice" - and there does seem to be a lot of wisdom in that.
And I often wonder where greed plays into this the same as it plays into so many other things about modern culture. Something is 'good' - so MORE must be better ?

But per your original post & question the monastic traditions had identified at a very early stage that too much desire leads to unhappiness and struck out on a quest to eliminate all desires (needs).

But that is not going to be the "way" for the majority of people - and as your quoted post implies, we'll continue to risk the gunfire for the prospect of that second coffee. We want for that adrenaline (and caffeine) rush ! And sometimes we even get it !

GS

[SchrodingersCat]

You're equating "happiness" with "love" and they're two completely different emotions.

Why pursue love when you're already happy? Because love feels amazing! It feels alive! It feels like being part of something bigger than yourself. The wonderful feeling of love is worth any risk.

Being in love doesn't mean I'm always happy. No one is happy 100% of the time, but I never stop loving my husband even when I'm having the crappiest day, feeling like the whole world is against me. And so even when I'm not happy, it's still a great comfort having someone to love, someone who's there for me and loves me even when I'm being a total downer.

And THAT is the reason to pursue love, whether or not you're happy. But it's mistaken to think that finding love is the same as finding happiness. My step-mother was miserable every day of her life, even though she did love and was loved by her children and her husband. But they couldn't make her happy.

Originally Posted by DharmaBum23

If you are already making yourself happy, why would you want to date someone else(in a poly or monogamous context)?

To me, the real question is, Why would anyone want to date me if I'm just using them to make myself happy?

It's unkind to the people you date to use them to find happiness if you can't find it by yourself.

It makes it so that your happiness is wholly dependent on them, and any time they make a mistake or do the wrong thing, you "lose your happiness" and then blame them for "making you miserable." That is not loving behaviour.

I've dated people before, who were only in a good mood if I was in a good mood. It's a tremendous burden to be responsible for the happiness of another person.

When I've dated people who used me for their happiness, it drained my energy and left me wondering what's in it for me. Those relationships never lasted long.

Originally Posted by DharmaBum23

Well, the way I interpreted the response(which may not be the way it was meant) was that whatever happens to someone in dating that it can't really affect one's happiness because happiness is a fundamental state.

I wouldn't say "fundamental" so much as "personal." If something really terrible happens in my relationship, it will definitely affect my happiness. And I will take responsibility for figuring out how to get my happiness back, whether that means changing something in the relationship, changing my attitude about the event, or leaving the relationship altogether.

Look, happiness isn't some magical little bubble where nothing can touch you. Quite the opposite. Happiness is something that requires constant vigilance and determination to sustain. When your life is going good, like you're in a new relationship and exciting things are happening, then it's much easier to sustain that happiness. But we're not just butterflies in the wind, being controlled by whatever happens around us. We have the ability to make changes in our lives and our attitudes about life in such a way that ultimately, we control how we feel.

What I'm saying is that if someone didn't need the NRE, contentment, happy moments(poly or otherwise), and so forth that one can gain from dating, it seems kindof odd that they would risk the extreme pain and heartache that can come with dating. Like crossing a gunfight to get your second cup of coffee.

I don't agree that it's the NRE, contentment, or happy moments that I need from a relationship. What I need, pure and simple, is to share love with other people, which I obviously cannot do by myself. I also need happiness, which I can do by myself.

[Honestheart]

a question in SchrodingersCat 's first post to this thread "If you are already making yourself happy, why would you want to date someone else(in a poly or monogamous context)? "
quite simply put...
i can be happy single, but i find that i am happier.... with somebody.
whether that somebody is with somebody else or not, doesnt matter...

just what i've found about me tho...
although to be honest, right now after the last relationship i just had i totally feel like a bull ran thru my china shop
and btw, monasticism is in the spell check???? hey, no fair! that was in my spell check and not polyamory!? ok ppl we so totally need to like do something about that! LOL ...

[AutumnalTone]

Originally Posted by DharmaBum23

Question in regards to fundamental state? Does that mean that it is unchanging?

In my experience, it's always available, though I won't attest to it necessarily being unchanging.

If so, how does one obtain it if one doesn't already have it?

I suspect there is no single fashion by which one can find one's joy. I can't say that the manner in which I found mine would work for anybody at random.

If it isn't unchanging, how can dating not threaten to diminish if not destroy it? A considerable amount of our music and literature in western civilization is devoted to how painful love and dating can be. If happiness as a state can be gained or lost, if anything would do it, I would put dating in the top 10.

I'll offer that experiencing fundamental joy as part of one's self doesn't preclude feeling sorrow or pain--at least, it hasn't for me.

I have to admit my bias here. I don't think that any state(happiness, sadness, whatever) is at all unchanging from moment to moment. From my experience, happiness can stay around for awhile, but eventually it will fade. Just like sadness.

Perhaps we're simply speaking of different things, then. Once I found my joy, my happiness, it's always been present. The frustration and fleeting sorrow of missed connections, and even the grief of a relationship ending, haven't removed the joy that underlies my existence. Even now, with long-term unemployment removing my sense of security and shaking my confidence in my value as a worker, I still feel that undercurrent of happiness in the waters of my subconscious.

As the Beatles sang in *Across the Universe*: "Pools of sorrow, waves of joy are drifting through my open mind, possessing and caressing me." I can always feel the waves of joy, even when in the midst of a pool of sorrow.

[NeonKaos]

Originally Posted by Honestheart

p
and btw, monasticism is in the spell check???? hey, no fair! that was in my spell check and not polyamory!? ok ppl we so totally need to like do something about that! LOL ...

"some" and "something" ARE in the spell check. It doesn't do any good unless you USE it!

[DharmaBum23]

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

Dharma,

I more or less tend to agree with your philosophical stance & approach. And it is VERY philosophical and therefore not one that many large numbers of people will care to even process.

TY. And this is nothing. You should see the arguement I'm having with myself in regards to BDSM and freedom. It reminds me that I think too much.

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

For a lot of people I think "happiness' is defined by a certain adrenalin rush. I often try to compare terms such as "happiness" and "contentment" because if they were not different it seems we wouldn't have come up with two terms.

Actually Chogyam Trungpa talked about that once. He theorized that people in the United States shouldn't talk about attaining happiness because they abused the idea and instead work towards contentment. I'm not sure I agree with him, however, it does illustrate that we have two different words for them for a good reason.

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

But per your original post & question the monastic traditions had identified at a very early stage that too much desire leads to unhappiness and struck out on a quest to eliminate all desires (needs).

But that is not going to be the "way" for the majority of people - and as your quoted post implies, we'll continue to risk the gunfire for the prospect of that second coffee. We want for that adrenaline (and caffeine) rush ! And sometimes we even get it !

GS

Yeah. I can only look my nose down at the idea a very little bit, honestly(and even that little bit is hypocritical of me). After a particularly nasty relationship point(such as what happened about two days ago) I tend to spend a day or so moping and thinking about giving up this whole dating thing and becoming a monk(which, of course, makes me wonder why other people do it, which then lead to the original post). Then I remind myself of a REALLY complicated philisophical point involving perception and external phenomenon, square my shoulders, tip my(metaphorical) hat forward, and back into the fray I go(although as of late, it's back into the gym and books I go, but you get the idea).