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  #151  
Old 05-15-2010, 04:04 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I'll tell you why young people aren't as marginalized as they think they are (and I'm 39. some people would consider that "young" as well. I do not have an opinion on that for the purposes of this discussion).

None of us are getting any younger, and Western society extols the virtues and benefits of youth as the "pop-cultural" norm (whether or not you agree that I am qualified to make this determination is academic and debatable. Let us assume for the moment that I am qualified to do so). Youth is seen as the "future". EVERYone was young at some point. EVERYone went through the "discrimination" of not being allowed to drive or not being allowed to buy alcoholic beverages. It is NOT the same thing as being of a certain minority ethnic or racial group, or a certain religious or lifestyle orientation. I remember being 20-ish and some of the offensive remarks that were made to me by "older" people regarding my age... It was clear then just as it is now that the people who made those remarks felt marginalized because of THEIR age! The "marginalization" of myself as a younger person was the side effect of older people who could not process their jealousy and envy. I remind myself of this often and try to make a point not to duplicate this mentality as I grow older. But you have to understand, that the cultural programming of western society DOES place youth on a pedestal, NOT the other way around.
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  #152  
Old 05-15-2010, 06:07 PM
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Pardon my ignorance, but this seems to me to be a lot akin to the more neutrally-worded "Generation Gap" that has been around for ages. The idea that people from different generations have different paradigms and a lack of understand of the issues and priorities seems quite similar.

The only difference seems to be that instead of it being a mutually-agreed upon difference - that there is a divide between the age-groups, this is saying that one side is being marginalized, downtrodden, or made to feel less by a larger, more dominant group.

But is the root of the issue basically the same? A lack of understanding, and the differing behaviours associated with that?
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  #153  
Old 05-15-2010, 09:42 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Is this old thread reopened ?

Rkelly - do you have concerns you'd like to express or was your post just intended to weigh in with your opinion ?

Where you seemed to quote a lot of my statements, if you are still around and would like to open some general dialogue I'll be happy to expand on or clarify any of that material you picked out.

I think in general - and any/everyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - that this discussion ended on a note that while any particular 'individual' might feel something less than embraced by any particular preexisting group of any type, that 'in general' (overall) folks attempting to successfully live a poly lifestyle were far from 'ageist' - maybe even quite the contrary.

If that is the case I'm pretty sure the group (members) as a whole would be happy to help someone work through where that perception is coming from - the same as we try to help each other work through all manner of other sticky wickets.

What say anyone ?????

GS
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  #154  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:01 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Welcome to the forum jkelly, I think it's great that you have made some valid points in your post but would wonder if perhaps these above statements would not be seen as agiest them self and also marginalizing.

Just a thought.
Thanks for the welcome.

Having grown up in a culture that has some weird ideas about age (and a lot of other things), it's pretty likely that I fall into lazy thinking and have weird preconceptions that I'm not aware of.

Quote:
I am wondering what your intent is in regard to your questions? It's hard to answer them without feeling defensive and that there isn't a finger being pointed by you.
The questions were my trying to illuminate what I read as marginalising statements. They certainly weren't an attempt to avoid making anybody feel defensive! When I feel defensive when reading about someone discussing their marginalisation, I take that as a sign that I'm having my privilege challenged, and try to work on figuring out where my issue is. So defensiveness is a good sign!

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could you suggest some ideas on how to address the issues here without pointing a finger back and forth? Perhaps in such a way as to create communication out of interest and intent to understand one another?
I suspect that being strongly supportive of youth in community organising and leadership would be helpful.

I also think that it would be helpful if, when the topic is raised, those members of the community who are not young point out any marginalising behaviour from others in their age group. Given that they are likely to have more authority, it will be easier for them to be heard over the defensiveness.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I'll tell you why young people aren't as marginalized as they think they are (and I'm 39. some people would consider that "young" as well... EVERYone was young at some point. EVERYone went through the "discrimination" of not being allowed to drive or not being allowed to buy alcoholic beverages.
So your response to someone who is feeling marginalised due to their age is to tell them to not worry about it, because they'll just grow out of it?

I'm not sure why you're using scare quotes there with "discrimination", but I also don't see what its relevance is to being marginalised within the poly- community, which was the topic under discussion.

Quote:
But you have to understand, that the cultural programming of western society DOES place youth on a pedestal, NOT the other way around.
I suspect that if you think about it, youth is not privileged when it comes to making their voices heard, or being taken as authorities at discussion groups or workshops, or when doing community organising, which is what we were discussing (specifically TNG groups and e-mail lists).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Is this old thread reopened ?

Rkelly - do you have concerns you'd like to express or was your post just intended to weigh in with your opinion ?

I think in general - and any/everyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - that this discussion ended on a note that while any particular 'individual' might feel something less than embraced by any particular preexisting group of any type, that 'in general' (overall) folks attempting to successfully live a poly lifestyle were far from 'ageist' - maybe even quite the contrary.
My username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.
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  #155  
Old 05-17-2010, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I suspect that being strongly supportive of youth in community organising and leadership would be helpful.

I also think that it would be helpful if, when the topic is raised, those members of the community who are not young point out any marginalising behaviour from others in their age group. Given that they are likely to have more authority, it will be easier for them to be heard over the defensiveness.
Thank you, that is very useful actually. I am going to a workshop tomorrow night on age differences in polyamory and I have given a lot of thought to my opinion... My thoughts were a long these lines and I appreciate that I am not off base in terms of being supportive rather than condescending, naive and ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.
HAHAHA! oh too funny sorry GS, but I am familiar with Rkelly's music and I just find that tragically coincidental that you got our friend jkelly and Rkelly mixed up...

heehee, heh. okay, trying to stop laughing now... HA! okay, I think I got it out.... well kind of.

Carry on, don't mind me while I fall of my chair.

(I hope you don't think I'm laughing at you GS, well I am, but in a good way )
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  #156  
Old 05-18-2010, 12:00 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkelly View Post

So your response to someone who is feeling marginalised due to their age is to tell them to not worry about it, because they'll just grow out of it?

Yes, that is correct. However, they will not grow out of feeling marginalized because of their AGE. They will grow out of feeling marginalized because they are "young" and then they will feel marginalized because they are "old".

I used to get the crap about not being taken seriously at meetings and all that. You know what? The way I dealt with that is not to wail about how marginalized I was, because that would have marginalized me further. The way I dealt with it was to do the best I could with my talents and strengths and PROVE through ACTIONS that I was able to do the job. I did not LET a bunch of insecure, small-minded nobodies tell me who *I* was or what my limits were.

So, yes. If you "feel marginalized" because of your age, get out there and live your life, get experienced in whatever it is you do, and don't let anyone else tell you you're less than just because of your age. I STILL look young and I STILL get that crap, but I don't feel compelled to say "hey, you know what, I'm 40, so stop treating me like I'm 20" because that's a very silly way of dealing with people in the first place. And it is not my mission in life to fix every jackass with whom I come in contact.
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  #157  
Old 05-18-2010, 12:08 AM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Thank you, that is very useful actually. I am going to a workshop tomorrow night on age differences in polyamory and I have given a lot of thought to my opinion...
I'd be very interested to hear how that goes. I know it is long, but did you read the post at freaksexual that I linked to upthread? I think that Pepper does a lot of work examining the issue, which could lead to a lot of fruitful discussion.
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  #158  
Old 05-18-2010, 12:19 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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I STILL look young and I STILL get that crap, but I don't feel compelled to say "hey, you know what, I'm 40, so stop treating me like I'm 20" because that's a very silly way of dealing with people in the first place.
Boy can I feel this thought!!
"YOU have an 18 year old daughter!??!?!?!?"
"Yes, I have an 18 yo DD, 14 yo DS, 10 yo DS and a 3 yo DD."
"That is IMPOSSIBLE!?!?!"

(internal thought-impossible??)

I get SO much crap about being "so young". I just smile and say thank you-go on with whatever it is I'm doing whilst internally thinking-thank you God for letting me age well.

I have to agree that a lot of feeling marginalized goes away if you are willing to just act like yourself and live your life.

It may well have been this thread that some months ago I spoke of the 16 (now 17 yo) who I count as a friend. Yes he's younger than my oldest child. But he's a GREAT guy and I like hanging out with him. He's fun, honest, friendly and REAL. He doesn't treat me different because I'm "old" and I don't treat him different because he's "young" (except that he's hot and I DO NOT hit on him-because he is young-but that's different).
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  #159  
Old 05-18-2010, 12:20 AM
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Thanks j, I haven't read it, but I will now that you point it out. Any insight is useful.
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  #160  
Old 05-18-2010, 07:21 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOT>Rkelly
My username is Jkelly. R. Kelly is an American R&B artist with some unsavoury connotations when it comes to the topic of youth.

I understand that any concerns you may have had about the marginalisation of youth have been addressed to your satisfaction and "maybe even" beyond.
Well there ! See - learn something every day. Knew there was some reason to get up I'll have to check him out.
Sorry for the typo there bud (let's blame in on OLD eyes ? But a psychoanalyst would have a ball with your reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Pepper
HAHAHA! oh too funny sorry GS, but I am familiar with Rkelly's music and I just find that tragically coincidental that you got our friend jkelly and Rkelly mixed up...
Kewl - I'm laughing with you. Glad I could add a little stress relief to your life for a minute ! We don't get enough laughter.
Having never heard of the individual, does this mean we need to assume some grander power at work ?

Anyway...............

J-kelly - what do YOU think ???
Do you feel marginalized in some way ?
How would you define marginalization ?

Always good to make sure everyone is on the same page when it comes to language & definition. Always step 1.

AND.........

You didn't answer my question ? Did you feel any need or desire to get any deeper understanding of the things I said that you quoted - or just content to make the point you have issues with them ? One or the tother .

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 05-18-2010 at 07:34 PM.
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