Opening Up, Need Support

Hello! This is my first time on any polyamory forum. I've spent countless hours in the last couple years studying polyamory, reading More Than Two, and talking about it with friends and my partner. As you can expect, nothing could have really prepared me for what opening up is really like. I feel like my situation is complicated by a few details, which I will try to present in the most concise manner possible.

When I met my partner S in 2013, we were both swept up in NRE. I was 29, S was 19, and I never thought it'd be more than another college fling. We discovered a much deeper connection through our mutual honesty and openness. We both matured quickly, as we had chosen sober lifestyles coming from alcoholic families. I was the first man she'd ever been with. When we started officially dating, I told her about my polyamory, and we agreed to keep a monogamous relationship to build trust until we were both ready.

It was, and is, the best relationship either of us have had by far. In summer 2014, we decided it was time to open up. I had graduated, with her a year behind, and went to grad school about 70 miles away. She was willing to try, but was very unsure she would be able to trust someone else enough to have a relationship with (she is demisexual, her relationships are heavily based upon trust) and also with the idea of me seeing another woman. We took it easy, looked into opportunities, talked about everything, but neither of us found any potential partners we were interested in. We talked and planned out how we would handle me seeing another woman, or trying light (non-penetration) threesomes with other women. Nothing panned out.

Around this time, she also purchased and read (most of) More Than Two. She did her own online research, and read and discussed what I shared with her. We would read the book together when I would visit her, and we talked about all of our worries, fears, anxiety, everything. She maintained that she didn't see herself being able to fall for someone new while she was with me. I was the only person she wanted, but she would try because she didn't want to control the kind of person I am. Coming out of NRE, we both still agreed that our relationship was still very strong, and this challenge of polyamory would be our final test as a couple.

In spring 2015, an exchange student named T became quickly adopted into her friend group at school. She told me there was a mutual interest, and I became very excited for her and us. These feelings were mixed with great confusion, based on her previous confessions of only ever seeing herself with me - very monogamous views. As you can imagine, when push came to shove last week, things quickly became scary.

Last Thursday, she ended up making out with him in a neutral place late at night. We talked over skype about before going to sleep. While I was in shock a bit, I was mostly curious and excited. She told me a bit more about it. T is a 19 year old Mexican exchange student from a well off family (S and I are both white, but it doesn't matter). He also happened to be a virgin. I went to visit her for an overnight the next day. We spent hours talking (about us more than anything), having amazing sex and intimacy, and I felt our relationship was stronger than ever. At first, she tried to explain she wasn't "in love" with me anymore - conversation revealed this to be NRE, a new definition for her. She then reaffirmed that she still deeply loved me. We established some guidelines, such as communicating how the relationship was going with all of us. She would be seeing him again Saturday night.

I let her know I had made the drive safe at 7pm, to which she instantly replied. She is the type of woman who instantly replies to texts (track phone = no call), and 99% of the time texts "good night" and "good morning" to me. Well, wanting to respect her relationship, I never texted her that night until 2:30am - well past when she normally goes to bed. She didn't respond. I followed up with "Sigh. Can't sleep." a bit later and she instantly replied, apologizing for not noticing my first text.

We talked it all out the next day, and everything seemed just fine again. Sunday we were both swamped with homework, but still sent me spontaneous messages about what she was up to. All clear. She would be seeing him again Monday night. We talked about moving too fast, and about NRE again. She mentioned that he's not ready to meet me yet, and isn't really comfortable with her talking about me with him. That raised a red flag for her without my imput.

Monday, throughout the day, went as normal. Around midnight, I sent her a message asking how her night was going - very normal for us. Well... no response immediately. Must be a logical reason. Over an hour later, she replies with a very typo ridden message that basically reads "hey love I got my shirt off might spent the night not sure yet". Between the time and typos, I asked her to call me (using the phone program we'd set up earlier). It was then the gravity of what happened hit her, and she admitted "I fucked up... bad. I'm so sorry". We talked for awhile, but I couldn't hide my distress. After all, this was the second time in a row she was with him and neglected my requests for prudent communication. In the end, we agreed to Skype the next morning, and I told her to spend the night with him, that I trusted her enough for that still. She ended by saying that she would talk about it with T and let me know how it went before she went to sleep. An hour later, she said they had agreed they were moving pretty fast, and that staying overnight could wait. I told her that all I wanted was to stay in the Loop, and we went to sleep on a good note.

However, I can't help the sinking feeling that this will end badly. Nearly all of our friends are surprised that he and I haven't met yet, especially considering T and S were friends for weeks before starting this. I suspect that she's getting very swept up in NRE, feeling confused about a lot of things, and underestimating the importance of communication when starting a new relationship. It's bringing out some ugly insecurities in myself. Further compounding the issue is T, where my growing suspicion (which I'm not alone in) is that T wants nothing but a monogamous relationship with her. Between that, S's confusion about poly, the 70 mile distance between S and I, and the multiple "mistakes" on her part, I'm much less sure that her and I can survive this.

On the plus side, she has exceptional social support, including a best friend whose parents are in a very successful triad. Her friends are my friends, and they are very supportive for both of us. Some that were in the dark were hostile towards her when they saw her with T initially, saying "S! Your boyfriend knows, right?" then calming a bit after. Prior to her pursuing this new relationship, we had come to the mutual conclusion that exploring polyamory - at first for me, then her as time went on before she met T - would be the last step before we decide to spend the rest of our lives together. Aside from that, we had virtually no problems. We saw each other almost every week, maintained great communication during the distance... we were both very happy.

I just don't know how to manage my own fears and insecurities. I've been trying to avoid setting rules and boundaries, but that will be the topic of discussion during our Skype call today. The breakdown of communication was the telltale sign of my last two serious relationships ending; one in cheating, the other in a sudden breakup. I'm still hopeful, and all of our supports reassure us we're doing this the best we can, with our honest communication. I do show my excitement and joy when she talks about her relationship with him - her happiness makes me happy. My biggest worry is that she will be swept up in the NRE, neglect her relationship with me, and the pain I will experience will drive us apart.

Please help me. I love her so much. I have for a long time. I wish I could be there more, but I can't. Is trying to arrange for us to spend more time in person together a good idea? I can't help but feel it's going to push her away, especially with the resource drain of a new relationship. I believe intercourse is still pretty far off, but we might not even last that long. How important is it that I meet this guy? I feel like all of these incidents are causing the focus of my relationship with S to be on T, and poly, and it's tiring for both of us. I've been working on myself too, being more social, working out, and it helps.

Summary thought: I believe I can handle a healthy polyamorous relationship - I'm just not sure if I can handle one with her.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Please tell me I'm not crazy.

You should probably back off a bit with the texting. It's clearly causing you some distress, and if I were in her position, it would be annoying. If I am on a date with a guy, my focus is on him, not my other relationships. I am sure if she were in bed or on the couch snuggling with you, it would be unwelcome for her to be texting messages to some other dude. Let her carve out some time to spend with this person, where you aren't expecting to get an update in the middle of things. I think you are wanting too much. Maybe have her have a set time to message you the next morning or at lunchtime - some time that her emotions aren't all caught up with him. No one texts me when I am on a date unless the house is burning down.

Thank you for the reply. I think that you're right about easing up contact/pressure a bit. We do try to arrange times to call/video chat. I don't think no contact unless absolute emergencies is right for us either, both with the fact we're long distance - we see each other once a week tops, so in a way it feels like a secondary while the local is primary. If anything, I would want the one day a week I might get to spend with her free of nagging from from him.

What it boils down to is opportunity. If someone is trying to talk to someone else in the relationship too much, we plan to step aside and see if anything needs to change, or anyone needs to go. Myself included.

That being said, something in our conversation today triggered something for her. We were just discussing boundaries, and out of nowhere she blurts out that she got into the poly relationship because she figured that sooner or later I would be in one, and then she would lose the security and support that a monogamous relationship brings. This was a total shock to me - we then discussed what each of us saw as the ideal relationship. I told her about my idea of polyamory being one big supportive family. That I couldn't see myself getting very intimate or emotionally attached to my future partners if they couldn't be friends with her. Ultimately, she is my best friend - and I believe your relationships and best friends should get along. After hearing this, she said it sounded like her family at home, in the way that people support each other. This was a good thing.

After that, she continued the boldness and admitted that her needs weren't being met. She needed her new partner and I to meet, at the very least, and she was tired of full mediating responsibilities. She also agreed that she couldn't see any new relationships getting far if they couldn't get along with her friends - including me. She was being very sensitive of T's wants to avoid meeting me, and his desire to keep most details of their relationship a secret. That's been bothering her from the beginning. She doesn't want to lose him, but she wants some say in what she may or may not discuss with me. She wasn't happy with T's level of communication.

In the end, we both agreed we're total nubs at polyamory. She suggested that she, I, and T all try and sit down with a friend's polyamorous family - the triad I mentioned before - this Saturday to figure stuff out. What I asked of her in the meantime is to read up a bit on the subject, and present to T a better definition of what "my boyfriend and I are trying polyamory, its like an open relationship - is that okay with you?".

...whew.

That being said, talk is still kind of cheap. We shall have to see how it plays out. She did say she would plan on spending the night with him tonight. Young, inexperienced lovers in the throes of NRE - that's not easy for most single people. I said I would not plan on texting her unless something very interesting came up (like me making plans with one of my [female] classmates, or emergencies), and that she could let me know what she felt I needed to know, and when. For now, I just have to trust her.

I hear that you know one adult couple who live in a working, apparently successful triad, and that is your ideal.

However, perfect triads do not form magically. Dating is hard, one has to kiss many frogs to find one's prince. Also, there are as many ways to do poly as there are people doing it. Demanding her brand new bf meet you, and now, this triad group! If I were him, I'd be shaking in my boots. Dude probably just wants to connect with your gf, get to know HER, see if she is right for him! He doesn't have to "meet the parents" to be a good guy.

I think you are asking too much of your gf's new dude. I am in a live in relationship with my gf and we may or may not meet each others' OSOs. It isn't necessary. I find some people want to meet her, some do not, and it's not a red flag either way. No one has ever tried to "steal" me from her. If he was seeming to try and do that (term for that is "cowboy" or "cowgirl") I'd set him straight quick, and if he didn't get the message, he'd be gone.

Also, my partner texting me while I am on a date with a new or newish person, to get a play by play? No freeking way. Emergencies only. And if I was on a date and spontaneously decided I wanted to spend the night at his place, of course, I would text her to see if that was OK, if she needed me, if she'd made any plans for us early the next morning, etc. Common courtesy.

Basically it sounds to me like you are new to poly, you are jealous, you are insecure, you wish you weren't 70 miles away. What do you really need to feel secure? If you want to see her more often, and can arrange it, and she wants it too, by all means, do so.

Don't get caught up in primary/secondary, who is more important to her, types of fears. Try to be more confident. She is an autonomous human being and can have sex with anyone at any time, it's her body, her desires. Part of being poly is getting comfortable with your partner having sex with her OSOs, and many people have trouble with this. It takes trust, it takes communication and reassurance. Try to focus on what you need from her to feel connected, not on what she can or can not do with her brand new bf.

By the way, did you mean to say you are 29 (and she is 19?). Or are you actually 19 as well? You say you are both young college students.

I'm currently 31, and she's 21. We've been together almost two years.

As for the texting while she's with him, let me explain that a bit. My girlfriend and I have been in a habit of being able to text each other whenever we like just to see how each other's day is going, and share what we're doing with each other. If one of us is busy, then it's never a problem, we lead our own lives. This isn't asking for a play by play, or bidding for extra attention while we know the other person is on a date. I went on a camping trip with a romantic interest last summer away from my girlfriend, and she never pried about how things were going with the new girl. We just want to be a part of each others lives, and we respect each other's space. If I text her and say "hey love how's your night going?" and she says "Good! T and I are watching a movie" I'll respond with "Sounds fun, glad you're having a good time!" and that'll be it. What I don't like is feeling that this regular communication behavior is no longer acceptable just because our plans are with romantic interests... which it really isn't. I would never ask for a "play by play" while she's with someone. That is disrespectful to her and her company.

As for meeting T, she first told me about him weeks before they started getting physical. I was excited to meet him, like any new addition to her friend group, but he wasn't available on the one visit I had with her during that time. When it started, I told her "I would still like to meet him, but I can understand if he's not ready. It's like if we just started dating and then next week you insisted on me meeting your mom. I wasn't ready. I totally understand." However, this changed quickly because it soon felt like as you said he was "trying to steal me away from her". He became very ambiguous in wanting to meet me, not wanting to talk about me, and wanted to spend every day with her. In your words, very much a "cowboy". Once I sensed this, I pushed harder for the meeting, or to at least set a date. I told S "if it's easier for him, I could talk to him on the phone for a few minutes, I promise it's not any interrogation. I'll treat him just like any of your other friends." which she thought was a good idea. She mentioned it to him later, and got the same kind of answer "I don't know, we'll see". She wants us to meet. She said "well, before the winter break at least? (two weeks from now)" and got the same response.

Yes, we're very new to poly. Neither of us has had sex with another person since we started dating. She's never had sex with anyone but me. I do feel insecure. She can do whatever she likes with her new boyfriend, our only agreement about sex is if we have unprotected with new partners then we use protection and both get tested. I only asked her to keep me informed on how their relationship is progressing, so I know if they're having sex or not. He wants to keep that a secret from me. That doesn't feel like polyamory, that feels like cheating. Yesterday, her and I agreed that the three of us sitting down together and talking about this is becoming more and more necessary. She needs it too, she's just been putting his needs before hers. She told this to me voluntarily.

Thanks for all your advice so far. I truly appreciate it. I hope this makes it a little more clear about why I'm having such a difficult time with this new adjustment.

OK, you're 31, she is 21, you are her first relationship.

10 years is a big age gap when you're that young. Huge difference between 21 and 31. Not so much difference if she was 31 and you were 41.

She's got little life or dating experience. Her new interest is even younger! Only 19! I am sorry, these are basically people who are still adolescent.

That complicates things. Dating one on one is hard enough for most young people, trying to do ethical non monogamy is exponentially harder.

This kid, T, is in NRE (new r'ship energy, infatuation). If he is like most young men, his libido is through the roof. He is thinking with his penis. He is hot for your gf. He doesn't want to think about YOU, or her r'ship with YOU, one bit.

All this isn't neccesarily a bad thing. And it doesn't necc. mean he has to meet you and state his intentions, as if he was courting your daughter!

It's up to your gf to be a good hinge in this V. And frankly, she is so young and inexperienced, I don't think it's going to be easy for her.

Your thoughts?

He may not ever want to meet you, or even talk to you. Is this a dumping offense? Are you going to veto him if he refuses?

Yesterday, her and I agreed that the three of us sitting down together and talking about this is becoming more and more necessary.

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Ah, see, you two agreed. Where was he in this conversation? You two are making choices as to what is best for you but he clearly doesn't think this is best for him, or it would have happened already.

You may think this will help quell his cowboy ways, but maybe he sees no benefit in it at all, especially since you are removed location-wise. Also, if he's an exchange student, and a virgin to boot, he might be living in la-la land and has some fantasy world built up in his mind where you don't exist. You can't force someone to have a relationship with you, or even acknowledge your existence, if he doesn't want to do it.

Play by play or not, I ignore my phone completely when on a date, and give my partner my full attention. The exchange you mention would be unwelcome. I touch base beforehand - letting my guys know I am on a date and not to message me. That way they aren't freaked by the silence and they know not to bug me. They are respectful of my dating space. And if they are off doing something they consider important - choir practice, painting with friends over Skype - I let them have their space as well. I recommend you back off, especially since it causes you distress. Yes, communication patterns can and do change because of a romantic date. At least they do for me, and it sounds like they do for your girlfriend too.

I don't know dude, but it sounds like you are pushing your girlfriend to involve you in her new relationship, to help quell your insecurities. This is not a good thing. Let them have space. You need to trust that your girlfriend will be a good hinge and can handle herself. Let her do her thing. If you don't trust that, then maybe poly isn't for you at this time.

I am sorry you struggle.

I agree with Mag. These people are in second adolescence. A lot of brain development happens up til 25. It is not a level playing field if just one of the three is well past 25 so that stuff is no longer an influence here.

I think both of you are avoiding breaking up for different reasons. Perhaps both are in anticipatory grief without acknowledging it as such.

She was willing to try, but was very unsure she would be able to trust someone else enough to have a relationship with (she is demisexual, her relationships are heavily based upon trust) and also with the idea of me seeing another woman.

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She maintained that she didn't see herself being able to fall for someone new while she was with me. I was the only person she wanted, but she would try because she didn't want to control the kind of person I am.

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This is not "joyous sounding yes, yay poly!" to me. It sounds like "no, but I don't want to come right out and say no" to me.

If she is (monoamorous and strongly prefers monogamous relationship shapes) poly will not fly for her.

It is not like she is (monoamorous but flexible on relationship shapes) and can be happy in something like a "V" where she is a v-arm person with a shared sweetie (you) and a metamour person X who is your other partner.

So I think she's trying to "be poly" even though she is not polyamorous and she is not really into that model to avoid breaking up and feelings of loss.

DENIAL stage in the grief process. She's mourning the loss of the previous mono relationship with you but doesn't want to be and doesn't want to own it as such.

In spring 2015, an exchange student named T became quickly adopted into her friend group at school. She told me there was a mutual interest, and I became very excited for her and us. These feelings were mixed with great confusion, based on her previous confessions of only ever seeing herself with me - very monogamous views.

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At first, she tried to explain she wasn't "in love" with me anymore - conversation revealed this to be NRE, a new definition for her.

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That being said, something in our conversation today triggered something for her. We were just discussing boundaries, and out of nowhere she blurts out that she got into the poly relationship because she figured that sooner or later I would be in one, and then she would lose the security and support that a monogamous relationship brings.

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See? Mourning the loss. It has BEEN lost. If you guys are open now, the mono time ENDED. Gone.

Again... all those make it sound like she is not really into a poly model. And like she started dating him to have someone in place for her in advance before the "official" break up. Because she figured you were going off to poly and dump her. BARGAINING stage.

If that is so....You have a wonky partner, dude, who's is desperately trying to square peg round hole.

I wonder if in YOUR own eagerness to begin poly you were not listening for all that at first? And now that you see inklings, in your OWN anticipatory grief you are not yet at final acceptance?

Both of you do not seem to be asking these questions...

• What is healthiest for me right now? (Not what is EASIEST, what is HEALTHIEST in the long run?)
• Is it better with the LDR for us to part ways at this time? Rather than try new poly with additional LDR complications?
  
• Are these healthy, compatible people to poly with or am I trying to make it work with whoever is handy?
  
• Do I really want to be here with joyous yes? Do all people in this poly network really want to be here with joyous yes? Is anyone here from fear of loss? Or fear of being alone? (Because that is busy running AWAY from something else, not running toward THIS model.)

Especially with her lack of dating experience. Getting to know more of the world and deciding if a mono-poly thing with you is ultimately the best choice for her seems important for her to to find out. Right now she's running against her own grain without experiencing other relationships and shapes to see if those serve her better.

Yesterday, her and I agreed that the three of us sitting down together and talking about this is becoming more and more necessary. She needs it too, she's just been putting his needs before hers. She told this to me voluntarily.

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Is she putting all his needs ahead of hers to assuage feeling guilty about using him? And also to be sure she keeps her fall back person in place if you do break up?

I think before y'all talk about polyshipping with T and how that might look, you and her could talk about her preferring mono over poly. And if accepting that breaking up is a healthier option at this time than continuing. Was summer 2014 till Feb 2015 enough time trying it on? How long do you go before accepting it's not a runner?

As for the rest? If you move on to poly with others, you could spend some time sorting those things out for yourself.

our only agreement about sex is if we have unprotected with new partners then we use protection and both get tested. I only asked her to keep me informed on how their relationship is progressing, so I know if they're having sex or not.

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Is the purpose of this agreement safeguarding your health? Then you are responsible for your own well being. Safeguarding your health could be solved NOW by you keeping an agreement with YOU. "I do not have unprotected sex with anyone. I always use a condom. I get tested regularly." Additionally you could be picky about who you share sex with. Like sticking to people who practice safer sex themselves.

If this agreement was to solve something else.... What is it? Perhaps it can be solved another way.

He wants to keep that a secret from me.

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Not clear. Keep what secret? The fact that they are lovers and practice safer sex or personal sex details? Maybe the virginal 19 yr old doesn't want you know when exactly he loses his virginity. Thought about it that way?

You do not need to know anything about them to protect your own health. Could be doing that already.

"They are lovers" is all you need to know for exchanging sex health info or labs if/when required. You need to know who to send it to or call if you turn up with something and are responsibly trying to tell people to get their own check up done.

Wanting to know personal sex details, stories, preferences, proclivities? That only happens if both of them are ok sharing details with you. You might want to know, but you do not need to know.

You are not clear on what kind of open model you want to practice.

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/models-of-open-relationships

Also not clear on HOW you agree to be together with others. What your hard limits are (no, NEVER) and what yours soft limits are (not right now, but could change over time) and what your deal breakers are. You do not know what other people have for their stuff.

In this case? It would be quicker to sort that info exchange out in trio conversation to avoid triangulation but another way to sort it?

She could ask him what model he wants to practice. If he would prefer mono. Something else off the open model list? If it is not what she wants to practice because it will not fit with what she wants to practice with you concurrently? She could make a choice. End it with him, you, or both. It is on her to be a solid hinge and frankly... She does not have the skills.

She also sounds more into mono, not really into poly. At least to me. Her poly research stuff sounds more about trying to change herself despite it going against her grain in order to keep you because she fears losing you. Have you considered that?

If not, consider it now and determine what the most loving course of action is for her. Keep going with lots of struggle or break up kindly? Both stink but which stinks least?

Summary thought: I believe I can handle a healthy polyamorous relationship - I'm just not sure if I can handle one with her.

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Are you saying you recognize this dynamic with her is unhealthy? What would be the most loving course of action to free you from it then and stop banging head against wall? Keep dragging this out? Or break up kindly? Both stink but which stinks least?

Galagirl

Okay, so I just spent way too much time typing out my response, I'll figure the key points.

Mag - preaching to the choir sir. I hear you. And I totally agree. She's struggling to be a hinge. I would love to chat with you sometime, especially if I can get S to join in the convo. It sounds like you've been in similar situations.

Bluebird - It seems like what works for you wouldn't work for me. When I first learned about open relationships, OPEN was the keyword for me. Honesty is of the utmost importance. Trust is next. Partners should practice total honesty with each other, and trust each other not to interfere. I don't like restrictions like the ones you mention. To me, if I were on a date with another woman, and other women were texting me, I would reply when appropriate "having fun talk to ya later". If they really needed me for something, or they were demonstrating unhealthy jealousy/insecurity, that's a whole other matter. But if my OSO's are NOT ALLOWED, or I REFUSE to contact them when I'm with others, then how would I ever learn those things about them in the first place? Sounds like an unnecessary safety net for me. If I'm with any of my friends in a one on one thing, and they spend more time on their damn phone than interacting with the person in front of them, then either there's a serious issue or they seriously don't need to be a part of my life.

Galagirl - you bring up a LOT of good points. Unfortunately I don't have time to address them all but I will say this. It's only been a week. After all that S and I have been through over the last 20 months, I'm not even close to "should I break up with her". I've definitely considered it, yes. Is this painful? Yes. Is it too much? No. I've endured much worse. S still brings me more pleasure than pain. Could this change over the next few weeks? Definitely. Will we still be together a month from now? I don't know.

All I can say for sure is that I've had to let some really important people in my life go before. The pain they caused me was far worse than this new adjustment is doing. That being said, I'm willing to leave this relationship to preserve myself. It's just too early to tell.

I read your link. I've read other articles on the website, but not that one. When I started talking with S, I talked about it in terms of primary/secondary. Even though I wanted to see other women, S was the one I wanted to come home more nights than not. I am a bit fascinated by the more egalitarian models, but I think those are really far off for now. I think that if either S or I met someone that could develop that strong of a bond with us, we would consider changing to that model. The idea of a "poly family" sounds great to both of us. But I also think that would depend on us having strong relationships, sexual or not, with each other's partners.

The dynamic is unhealthy. Before we started this, I had decided if I were faced with the choice of "mono with her" or "poly without", I would still choose mono with. The point of this opening up is that we are trying. We won't know if we don't try. I wasn't okay with "mono but never trying" even though she seemed to be back then. I'm still thrilled that she's willing to try, and even engage in a relationship herself. But I think some definite talk about what we're both okay with is needed, and that information should be shared with other partners.

I think what I am going to do is ask her to read this topic and engage in the conversation. We'll see how things go.

Thank you all so much for your input. It's all very valuable to me. I do value outside perspective quite a bit. Even if I don't agree with everything said, it's good to know what some more experienced individuals than myself can share about my situation. You've all raised some very good questions, to the point that I want to share them with her and see her responses too.

smashthecrash said:

Mag - preaching to the choir sir. I hear you. And I totally agree. She's struggling to be a hinge. I would love to chat with you sometime, especially if I can get S to join in the convo. It sounds like you've been in similar situations.

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Feel free to PM me.

Thanks Mags, I def will.

Okay I'm kind of glad no one has really responded to my last post.

I did a lot of soul searching yesterday. I consulted with my higher power and came to some realizations. First, I think that I've been putting my needs higher than my loved ones for a long time now. Placing demands and conditions on my relationships, not just with S, but with my other friends and family too. Nearly every rough patch S and I have had in the last 20 months is because of something I had a problem with - not her. I have been putting my needs above hers this whole time. She's been a saint for sticking through it. I've been trying to change her, not just in this new relationship of hers, but in a lot of ways. I've had problems with others too, like my mother, and I've been neglecting her needs too.

I spent most of my life growing up putting others needs before my own. My tour in Iraq in 2007, the things that happened there, made me realize just how much this had affected my life. Since then, I've been consciously putting my needs higher than others in most, if not all of my interpersonal relationships. It's time for ME to find a middle ground.

I met with her this morning at a mutual friend's house. I told her about what I just mentioned, and she confirmed it. I listened to her more this time. She told me about her definitions of what polyamory meant to her, and her expectations. She wrote me a letter. We were on different pages. I said that I would stop trying to force my beliefs and definition onto her. Our only actual rule when we started was safe sex. That's all I would hold her to. She would be free to pursue her relationship with T on her terms, and I would not ask any details. Their relationship was their business. I didn't have to ever meet him, if that was what she wanted.

She saw where I was coming from but argued that wasn't fair, that it was asking too much of me. I responded by saying that I felt awful about all the extra pressure and demands I had put on her in the last week, and wanted to make it up to her. We talked about that for awhile, and she talked about the ideas T had shared with her about how to meet me.

I asked her what her needs were - how I could best support her. She told me a few things. She said she wanted me to meet him, and for us to be friends. She also said that nobody was going to make her keep secrets from her loved ones, and if she wanted to tell me something she would. She also didn't want me to just give her extra space; she wanted us to keep seeing each other and talking the same amount of time that we always have. When she started seeing T, she had no intention of compromising her time for me. To be fair, she really hasn't. She's been much better at being a V than I gave her credit for. She's even reassured me a few times about our relationship voluntarily - "Even though I am crazy about him and excited to do all these things with him, the more I learn the more I see that I couldn't see myself having a relationship with him like you and I have". There's others things too, but that best sums it up. She figured that since her and I were long distance, she had more free time to spend with him, that it wouldn't be a problem because it wouldn't restrain her relationship with me. They've been doing a lot more talking in the last few days, and she said to him that if he tries to stop her from being with me then it's over between them.

Afterward, I told her I agree completely. I had been feeling insecure and lonely, and not behaving rationally at all. I retracted my request to see each other more, and said "The balls in your court now. Before this started, we had agreed this coming weekend was our weekend off. Let's start the visiting cycle over. I want you to decide the next time you want to visit, or want me to visit, then we'll go back to alternating like we used to." This made her happy. When the mutual friend came back, I told both of them that I had been unfairly demanding equality of visitation, when I definitely had less responsibilities and more resources (time, money) to see my loved ones.

Bluebird, I'm taking your posts to heart. Asking for play by plays was in my book, but it wasn't in hers - and I will respect her wishes. She is well aware of mine, and because she feels its unfair that I am willing to put aside what I want (to make up for the last week) she will try to put her needs first - which is for everyone she loves and cares about to be happy. She will tell me what she feels is important about her relationship with T, and I trust her to do this. Even if I don't really believe that, I'm making a conscious effort to try. Galagirl helped me realize that my relationship was much closer to ending that I originally thought, and I am the one who has to compromise for once.

Galagirl helped me realize that my relationship was much closer to ending that I originally thought, and I am the one who has to compromise for once.

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Galagirl is saying beware of grief stages clouding your thinking. Galagirl could be wrong, but Galagirl sees some denial/bargaining going on because there's some fear of the relationship ending. Galagirl is saying that if the healthiest thing for people at this time is to let the relationship end because (you are on different pages) or (not able right now to do LDR + polynewbie)? Then be ok letting it go for now.

There is a difference between (coming to compromise on issues) and (compromising yourself and your well being.)

Could stop being all "Oh no! The relationship might end! Prevent it at all costs! Preserve the relationship no matter what!" and be more like "What is healthiest for me at this time? For my partner at this time? To continue in this relationship how it is or be willing to change it? End this model and change to friendship model? Or part ways amicably with no model?"

To me? I am not clear if she's solid mono or questioning or what. She's 21 -- it's a questioning kind of time.

I do see you guys are trying to polynewbie AND LDR here. I think either one is challenging enough without the other piled on. Esp on student budgets/schedules.

• The solution is not her bending into knots to save the relationship so it can keep going.
  
• The solution is not you bending into knots to save the relationship so it can keep going.
  
• The solution is to stop struggling to "save the relationship" and buckle down to examine "what is healthiest for the people here at this time?"

If that means part for now, then go ahead and part. When things change over time you could get back together when it isn't LDR on top of polynewbie.

It's not the end of the world to part for now if it is healthier for now to do so.

I think that I've been putting my needs higher than my loved ones for a long time now.

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There is NOTHING WRONG with you putting your needs first. It is necessary. It does not mean you are off being selfish.

It's like putting your own oxygen mask on first in a plane crash. You run off helping others with theirs without taking care of you first? (That is selfless) Could keel over -- no longer of use to you or others.

If you see you HAVE been selfish, get back to middle balance. Do get to middle ground. Do not "make it up to her" by going overboard out to the OTHER tilted place of being too selfless. It is NOT admirable to be selfless -- despite pop culture myths surrounding that like "sacrificing all for love."

There is a spectrum.

Selfish <---> self-full <--> selfless

The ends are the tilted, unbalanced, unhealthy places.

• Selfish = All about me. Screw your needs.
• Selfless= All about other people. Screw my needs.

The balanced, healthy place is in the middle.

• Self-Full: I meet my needs first. So I'm not running dry, spread too thin, overdoing it, bending into knots, etc. Then I am free to gift others my help in meeting their needs if possible/appropriate.

I could be wrong. But it seems to me like you could be trying to bargain in a new way now. Like you think you have been selfish and now try to go selfless instead so the relationship can keep going. Still not stopping to assess what is healthy or not healthy. Still all about "keep the relationship going no matter what." If so? Could guard against this.

I encourage you to not approach this like "save the relationship! Don't let it end!" and approach it more like "What is healthiest for me? What is healthiest for my partner?" and be ok if the relationship needs to change or end for now because trying to LDR and polynewbie at the same time is simply too rough going and it is healthier for both to take a chill on that.

There's no law that says you cannot get back together later when LDR is no longer an issue.

I'm not sure how all this will turn out. I wish you well however it is that is does.

Galagirl

Thanks Gala. I do get what you're saying. After talking today, we both talked about how we had considered ending the relationship, at least for now given the circumstances. She doesn't want that. She doesn't want me to sacrifice my needs either. But I think both her and I agreed I have been selfish. Me saying "my needs don't come first anymore" is more of "I am willing to put my needs aside for RIGHT NOW to compensate for how I've treated you since you started seeing him". When I told her about putting my needs aside, she said she didn't want that - she wanted it to be a middle ground. I did agree that's what I want too. I didn't WANT to put my needs aside - but I wanted to show her that I was sincere when I said that I have been selfishly putting them higher than hers. I didn't think about selfish that way of putting others needs first. I agree that neither route is healthy, and my girlfriend sees that too.

I did say this to her - "I do want you to have a fair chance with T. I want you to be happy, and me too. If that means ending our relationship for now, I understand." As soon as I said this she cringed and said "No, that's definitely not what I want!". So maybe we're both in denial about what is healthiest, and in a "must save the relationship at all costs" mentality. I honestly can't tell you for certain. But her response to me saying that leads me to believe that both of us want to try the middle ground first. That's all she ever wanted from me. She didn't want us to change just because she was seeing someone else. She did have a plan for starting a relationship with someone new, as I've talked about. My actions in the last week have been putting far too many demands on her to focus on our relationship, leading her to doubt if 1) she was able to handle it at all and 2) if I had any faith in her to make her own decisions. I do believe that since I started voicing my concerns about their relationship moving too fast, other people in her life have as well, and I strongly believe she feels that it is too. She is spending more of her time talking with him and getting to know him rather than just getting physical (he is the silent type), and making more time for herself.

I wish that she and I could meet you Gala. It sounds like you have a lot of experience with this, and could give us some really good outside perspective. Unfortunately, all I can really do is share my side of things over an internet forum.

When I say I've been putting my needs before others for a long time, most of the time I believe I made the healthiest choice for me. But there have been extreme situations, not only my relationship with S but with people like my best friends and mother, where I feel that I have not considered their needs as well. It's my own stubborn pride. I'm overcompensating for a lifetime of putting "everyone's elses needs first. Screw my needs." I'm trying to find ways to overcome selfishness - something I have been struggling with my entire life.

I agree that there's no law that says we can't end the relationship and get back together later. But she doesn't feel that way right now, and neither do I. That's been a part of our relationship since we started, because we've both cultivated those values from our own life experiences. Neither of us have experienced nor witnessed a healthy relationship that ended and got back together. Apparently you have, and your words give me a sense of comfort and security. Thank you. Losing her for now, while shes starting a new relationship and we're in an LDR would not be nearly as bad as possibly causing irreparable damage trying to save a sinking ship. If it comes up again, I'll share your words with her.

What is healthiest for me? Doing what I originally intended - to open up our relationship and give polyamory a fair chance. Right now, I haven't been giving it a fair chance. Until either of us strongly believes that our relationship has to end (even temporarily) for us to both be healthy, then I will keep trying. S and I both feel that she needs to be able to experience this new part of her life, to answer her own questions and learn about herself. Exerting selfish, demanding control over her new relationship is NOT a healthy way to do things.

**EDITED because it was me rambling from my phone***

Galagirl I've been considering a lot more what you've been saying, and thinking about those questions. You're right - the real question is "What is healthiest?" it seems. In addition, it's good to hear someone putting "polynewbie" and LDR in the same sentence, because you're absolutely right that both are hard individually, compounded they may prove nigh impossible.

Okay, latest episode. Feb 28th, Saturday night. I had planned a couple days prior to visit my platonic female friend for her dinner party and stay the night. This platonic friend lives in the same town as S and T. It was NOT my primary intention to use this time to see S, but she came to the dinner party nonetheless. She was very affectionate and loving there, almost clingy if I didn't know better. After dinner and games, she invited me to talk, and we wound up in her room for awhile. She was still very hurt from the other day's letter/conversation, but wanted to try having sex. We got very close, but it became to difficult for her and I stopped. It was some of the most exciting foreplay we've ever had though. We parted ways, with plans for me to invite her to breakfast with my other friend in the morning before I left.

I lost some sleep that night because of overthinking though. I woke up around 4:30am and checked my phone, since I hadn't received any "good night love" text from her - a habit she has done 99% of the nights since we started dating that we were not physically together. I wasn't about to blow anything up at 4:30am, I just figured that she was with T and her mind was still wrapped up (it was when I left her room) but it did cause me to think about things.

I carefully re-read her response to my letter the other day. While doing so, I thought about some of the questions that Galagirl had brought up, and some of my own. In her response, she detailed what polyamory meant to her and how she saw it working when she started. In addition to our safe sex rule, she also specified that she would be okay with me seeing other women as long as they wouldn't take away from when she came to see me (as we were long distance) and that "we would still have our working relationship". Her letter, in addition to what Gala was saying, made a specific point to feel out my own needs. So I decided to propose the following "rule" or "hard limit" on our relationship - that new partners would not compromise the time of our current relationship and "we would still have our working relationship".

When she came to breakfast the next morning, we talked about this a bit afterwards. She emphatically agreed to this idea. That way, if either of us said or messaged something that didn't seem normal for our relationship, either of us could just say "You're acting weird" and leave it at that. We were unofficially doing that since Thursday anyway, now we just had a plan. When one person says "you're acting weird", the other either agrees and notes the behavior, apologizing if needed, or presents their rationale for normality. So far it's been working. Since most of our talking is via text message (the form I hate the most) it's easy to lose things in interpretation. This rule is a safeguard against that, for both of us. Both of us are experiencing changes as well, such as her new experience of managing multiple partners and mine of sharing. I told her that not sending a good night text was weird, and she agreed. No explanation needed.

She did say that T slept in her bed last night, but they only kissed. I actually feel kinda bad for the guy, because she didn't shower or even brush her teeth in between my visit and his.

Long story short? I feel like things keep getting easier every day.

Galagirl, I wrote down some questions including some of yours to ask her before we talked. I wrote down my answers beforehand and shared them afterward. They were directed at her, but I tried to answer them how I felt as well. I'll share the most relevant:

1. Do you feel I am pushing you into this open relationship?
Her: At first maybe, but no Me: Yes

2. Has your new relationship satisfied your polycuriousity?
Her: Almost, I've got one week left before spring break to keep trying but after that I'm probably going to end it with T
Me: Seems like it

3. What is the healthiest thing for you right now?
Her: I don't know*
Me: Go back to being friends with T for a set period of time, a couple weeks, then revisit the topic possibly

*Later, when I said my answer, she said that sounds like the healthiest thing for her/us too. We agreed going back to a single relationship is the healthiest thing, because it's causing too much stress for both of us. When choosing which relationship, she enthusiastically votes T. Ending our 20 month relationship over a short unofficial fling makes no sense to her, particularly when the fling would theoretically be easier to pick up where it left off.

4. Do you feel that you and I can function as a monogamous couple?
Her: As a couple.. I'm not sure. I think I can function as a monogamous person in a relationship.
Me: Yes, while maintaining an open mind for the future. We are just exploring, we don't know if this is truly right for us, if it's a good idea right now, or we just haven't found the right people. Monogamy is not completely off the table, it never has nor will be, but we are exploring alternatives.

5. How can I be a better friend to you?
Her: You're my best friend! I couldn't ask for anyone better! I know you're doing the best you can, and our talking always make me feel better about things.
Me: Try to listen more, don't be pushy, keep and open mind and try to be more empathetic. Empathy is something I have always struggled with, and I am trying to better understand what things are like from your shoes.

6. How do you feel about you and I breaking up and getting back together possibly in the future?
Her: It's scary. In my experience, it doesn't seem to work out. I feel like when you break up, you break up for a reason. While it's possible - [my friend's] parents got divorced, she had a child with another man, then they remarried; it feels like giving up, like we can't work through our problems. If we break up, I know we'll always be a part of each other's lives, but getting back into a relationship may not be possible.
Me: Not preferable but maybe needed. Getting back together is possible, but unlikely, and if you enter a new monogamous relationship then who knows. But that's kind of irrational, because its happened to me in past relationships. I agree that if you break up you do so for a reason, and I've rarely if ever encountered relationships that turn out well after a breakup.

To summarize, things moved too fast with S and T. She rushed some things timewise and physically, but isn't getting the emotional connection with him she needs. She's giving it another week, as their spring break is coming up, then she will take her time with her family to think more on what to do. During this break, she plans on visiting me at least once, and T is going back to Mexico for his family.

That's what I'm getting from her.

There's some incongruity with communication, but I think it's all in my head. When I speak with her face to face, (skype/phone as well) she hasn't given me any reason to doubt her sincerity. That doesn't mean she isn't conflicted, confused, or hurt however.

Okay! Almost there. So, correct me if you feel I'm wrong/misguided, but here's how I see things playing out:

This week: We will exercise our new "you're being weird" rule, that should take care of any issues related to long distance relationship communication. We have no plans to see each other this week. We're both busy with school. This week is her time of the month as well, so it gives her a good excuse to refuse premature sexual advances from T. They'll probably spend 2 or 3 nights together, which is no big deal.

Next week: Spring break. They will talk rarely if ever, and she will come visit me for at least one night (her hometown is closer to me than school). She's working full time during her break. She seems to anticipate the time away from T will help put things in perspective, helping her manage the "new shiny" spell of seeing him every day normally.

Week 3 and forward: In the weeks following spring break she will tell T she wants to stop seeing each other and just be friends. Reasons include what we have discussed. S and I will spend some time working on our relationship with just the LDR, and with her relationship with T on hiatus we figure he should be less anxious to finally friggin meet me - something SHE needs, and told him she wanted BEFORE they started fooling around. Once he meets me, I think he and I will get along pretty well, as I do with most of her friends. At some point later in the semester, the three of us might sit down and have a chat about re-opening the relationship. I also plan to pursue and possibly date new women as my relationship with S stabilizes.

Okay, anyone care to reality check?

Thanks for sticking in so far. I know my posts are pretty wordy. Right now this is probably just my blog, so I'd like to thank everyone so far for their help.

I really don't get why, when you visited for that party, she did foreplay/outercourse with you, then stopped short of intercourse and went and slept with, and made out with, T!

And yet you say she says, she has no emotional connection with him, it's more just FWBs, friends, a little kissing, sleeping together, literally, but not having sex. So then it's not really a full-on physical r'ship. I just don't get it.

And now she imagines breaking up with him for Spring Break, yet maybe getting back with him after Spring Break? Um, what?

I am not sure why, as a 31 year old, you are involved in all this stuff; it kinda sounds like the fumbling of high school students. From here, from what you've said.

Okay let me clarify.

We didn't have sex because of the emotions. It reminded of me when I had broken up with women in previous relationships. When I tried to stay friends with these women, we often ended up still having sex. The first time I would have sex with one of them, it was difficult for them because of the pain from the breakup. I had hurt them, and while their physical attraction to me was still high enough for sex, their feelings/emotions were conflicted because of "joy of being with him" and "pain from him dumping me".

S seemed to be experiencing a similar pain because of the LETTER I had written her earlier this week. She identifies as DEMISEXUAL - which in this case, means that the emotional component of sex is more important than for a normal person. It was HER idea to try sex, and she very much enjoyed the foreplay - but actual penetration was too difficult for her emotionally because of the pain I had just caused her.

Her "relationship" with T is NOT a full on relationship. It's a romantic relationship in the beginning phases which has not progressed to intercourse or titles (boyfriend/girlfriend/etc) yet. She says that her EMOTIONAL attraction to him is not increasing at a rate that makes her comfortable; thus, it places a hard limit on her PHYSICAL attraction to him.

She has already imagined breaking up with him. Her plan is to give it this current week (where they are in proximity) and the following week (where they are not) to make her decision.

Yes, a lot of this is high school age type drama. I kind of expected that.

As a 31 year old, I'm involved because of the 20+ women I have slept with (with varying quality of relationships) I feel that my 21 year old girlfriend has the best aggregate of emotional, intellectual, and physical qualities that I look for in a partner. While her experience with sex and relationships is very accurate for her age (probably lower actually), her qualities in other aspects of life make her a highly desirable partner to me. I don't feel the need to explain my attraction to S more than that. I've tried to explain the age difference to people since I met her. I have dated women nearly a decade younger than myself (including S), and others that have been over a decade older, and several in between. I prefer younger women. Would I prefer that my partner be older? Sure. Does that mean that age is enough reason for me to end the relationship with S? Absolutely not.

Hope this clears things up.

Oh, and why she slept with (read: shared a bed with) T after I left, well, I don't have a good answer to that. I did ask her about it, if there was anything in particular, but all she really said was she didn't want to be alone.

For sure, it's all circumstantial. I didn't understand why she had T over either exactly. But I know S pretty well, and I believe her when she says she doesn't totally understand it either. If it was someone else, like one of the other young women I've dated in the past, I would be more inclined to believe that S was withholding her feelings or being dishonest. Other women would have had another guy over for reasons such as "my boyfriend hurt me, and being with this guy could hurt him, so I'll do it" or "I want to know which relationship is better" or "I care about my boyfriend's feelings and wants to be with me, but I really want to be with the new guy" but those are all paranoid assumptions.

They are also assumptions I have not completely ruled out, either.

I think this has become a blog thread. You might consider starting one in the blog area as you continue to sort out.

I am very sorry you continue to struggle.

I think only YOU can determine when to stop struggling with "high school drama" and when to let go of participating in that drama. Because you decide you value your health and well being more than engaging with drama people. No longer worth the price of admission.

Okay, anyone care to reality check?

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MY POV

From my POV? Since you asked for feedback?

You list what you do NOT want (breaking up) but you do not list what you DO want very well. First you wanted to back off and let her deal with her relationship with T without interference. Now it sounds like Closing again.

I could be wrong. But to me you sound like your focus is stuck in (trying to manage pain in this relationship so I can keep it going) rather than (be healthy whether in or out of this relationship).

WHY?

Here is why I think that...

The dynamic is unhealthy.

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Is this painful? Yes. Is it too much? No. I've endured much worse.

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You base why you stay in a relationship on how bad past ones were rather than how good this one is? Why sign up to survive a relationship rather than thrive in it?

S still brings me more pleasure than pain. Could this change over the next few weeks? Definitely.

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Could you be willing to put percentages on it? Are we talking like 51% pleasure and 49% pain? Because that's more pleasure than pain, but I do not see how it is healthy or fun.

We agreed going back to a single relationship is the healthiest thing, because it's causing too much stress for both of us.

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Sounds like you both decided on

"Instead of LDR + polynewbie" do "just LDR."​

at this point in time. You could try that on for a while. If that needs to change later to

"Stop LDR"​

you guys can sort all that out at THAT point in time. At least reduction of stresses is reduction of stresses.

But that's why I think the majority of this sounds like the main focus is about managing pain for you. You seem to be trying to control the relationship shape to minimize dings to you so you can continue to stay in it. Rather than stepping back to change focus to "What is actually healthy for me? Do I need to leave this unhealthy dynamic?"

YOUR BEHAVIORS

Unhealthy behaviors I see?

1) You overthinking to the point of bad sleep.


2) Ruminating and picking at it. This is not healthy.


3) No deal breakers articulated.


4) Maybe staying too long if what is needed for you to be healthy is to leave.


CONCLUSION

I sincerely hope it works out for you with her in a healthy way since you want it so.

I think you could be letting your soft feelings for her/the relationship keep you from taking care of YOU though.

If you cannot have both? A healthy you in a healthy relationship with her? Then I hope you pick taking care of you so YOU at least, remain healthy. Right now you seem pretty messed up.

Galagirl