Just LR

I dislike that also. Making it be about the person, their personhood, their personality, when they say, "You are not wife material," is very blaming, shaming. You may not be the most compatible wife for him, or he the most compatible husband for you. But it's better said as, "We are not compatible with each other" and co-own the SITUATION, rather than sling barbs at a PERSON.

Uncool.

I cannot say I am surprised. It sounds like more of the same from Maca, not taking personal responsibility, dumping it all on your head.

I am sorry you deal in this, but glad to hear enforcing boundaries is getting easier for you.

Hang in there!
Galagirl

It's really depressing the way GG and Maca are acting nowadays. It's good that you're working on separating yourself from them as much as possible. You need to have a life of your own that you can live.

LR, the word is maleficent, with an A after the M, not an E.

adjective

doing evil or harm; harmfully malicious:
"maleficent destroyers of reputations."

Hm, is it time to rethink your identification with that name? Mal means sick or evil. Malady. Malicious.

I know you're thinking about the new movie, and the "rape:" her loss of wings. I just found it interesting you identify with an "evil" character, yet didn't spell it to reflect the meaning of "mal."

Stupid-ass phone glitched after I spent 15 min typing. Sigh.

I didn't bother with spellcheck, but I did know the meaning of the name. I still think it's fitting. When a part of you is stolen by someone, as her wings were, there are effects. The loss has an effect. The mistreatment by them has an effect. But the combination has an additional effect.

I was struggling to explain that third effect's existence for myself, until I put it together with the movie.

There is a "something" that creates a desire to be open and vulnerable and trusting of others. I am not open and trusting any more. But in addition, I don't have the desire to be. That "something" that always compelled me to WANT the deep connection is now missing.


If you hurt someone it causes damage, each time. But if you hurt someone repeatedly it causes exponentially more damage. It isn't simple addition.

(Numbers are arbitrary, just to create a visual)
Hurt 1=1 damage
Hurt 2=2 damage

It's hurt 1=1 damage
Hurt 2=4 damage
Hurt 3= 9 damage

Thus, for example, if a person is hit and they break their arm, that is vastly different than if they are hit, break their arm and hit again while their arm is broken and break their leg. Or, hit, broken arm, hit again, broken arm and leg, hit again, broken arm, leg and fractured skull.

The third person will likely have other health issues to be concerned with, and certainly many more limitations that if they simply got hit at three wholly different times in their life and each time broke an arm.

So anyway,
The disaster of GG
Compounded by Maca
Compounded by the anonymous message sent to me
Compounded by daily stress and responsibility
Compounded by my daughter's scary pregnancy issues
Etc.
Has had some pretty major effects on me, the way I see myself, friends, family, lovers, etc.

It is a sickness, to fail to see that we have a duty to be accountable and responsible for seeing ourselves in an honest light, doing regular check-ins with ourselves, finding our own failures, weaknesses, issues, and working on them.

To fail to take into consideration how our choices impact others and the world as a whole, to fail to be proactive in becoming a better version of ourselves, is a sickness. It is a sickness that causes abuse and harm to others in our lives, destroying them, and in turn 'sickening' them, so that we end up with a world of distrusting, wary, guarded people who are unable to fully develop into all they could be, because doing so requires an openness. They are unwilling to be open, because the world around them (the people) has given up on BEING the safe place for that openness to exist.

I like movies that portray the bad guy/s as complex and hard to judge.

kdt26417 said:

I like movies that portray the bad guy/s as complex and hard to judge.

Click to expand...

And especially in Malificent, the 'bad guy' is just so misunderstood. Most of the 'evil' is actually acting out the anger over the hurt experienced. I definitely see why you, LR, would identify with that character. There is a lot of hurt going on right now.

I'll have to check Maleficent out at some point.

I can definitely relate to the feeling of withdrawing and not trusting or being cold. For me it has started becoming more of being jaded with the idea of attachment, and not so much love itself. Not sure if that makes sense, but I'm able to separate the two.

The idea of enmeshment and dependency often associated with love isn't something appealing to me and many times people think that I'm being bitter when I say I don't want that. However, I feel like lately I've been more broadly affectionate in general and more easily loving to a larger number of people in my life.

When an ultimatum is laid down, by the nature of choices it is IMPOSSIBLE for the outcome to be the fault of only ONE party, because EITHER party could choose to cross the line. So when you say I chose xyz and that is why you walked away, it is ONLY TRUE if you chose to walk away because I chose xyz. Which means that I could have not chosen xyz OR you could have chosen to not walk away.

There is no way to make it true that I chose xyz and therefore you chose to walk away, without BOTH of us CHOOSING, and therefore BOTH of us being to blame for the current situation.

Likewise, if you claim that I drew a line in the sand by insisting on having a privilege that you didn't want me to have, then likewise, that means you drew a line in the sand saying you didn't want me to have that privilege. There is no way around the fact that for every line, both parties are part of the line drawing and the choice making.

When you try to say that its ALL my fault, ALL my choices, ALL me drawing lines in the sand, you are lying to yourself and the world at large, because it doesn't work that way.

If I said "I want this," it does not make a line in the sand, UNLESS there is someone saying "I don't want you to have it." In order for a line to be drawn, there MUST be two sides and they must disagree.

If your reaction was, "Okay, whatever. No matter what you do, I won't walk away," it would be impossible for a line in the sand to even exist.
ONLY if you express a place where you WILL walk out is it possible for a line to be drawn.

Hugs, LR...

You're right. Coming out and saying, "I can't handle this" is a much different thing than saying, "this is your fault" and proceeding to punish and blame you for it, rather than taking at least part of the responsibility.

I think I realized (after the fact) that my marriage had hit rock bottom when I was in counseling, tried (and failed) to get my husband to go, and was told, "I think counseling is making you worse." Same black-and-white mentality: if I would change, his world would be better. He shouldn't need to change. I should accept him as he is. Double standard much?

Unless he has an epiphany, it sounds like his M.O. is to shame, berate, and punish you while he ignores his own input into this mess. I'm glad you're standing up for yourself. When shame and punishment holds no control over you, they really have no other recourse and just end up as indignant as a two-year-old.

I dunno... maybe the time away will help him clear his head a bit, but I'm glad you're pushing back and fighting for YOU. If you find yourself wary for a while, okay. Your trust in someone you love and trusted with your life and well-being has been shattered. That takes some time to rebuild, if ever. Pushing back to fight for you means that, if trust and vulnerability is an integral part of you, it has a fighting chance of coming back because of the work you're doing. One day/step at a time.

Yeah... He blew off counseling. I haven't bothered to bring it up.

I blocked his number last night so he can't message me any more. He wants to blame.

I wrote him an email saying that even if one or the other of us was wrong, it wasn't necessary for either of us to be cruel and vindictive. We could remain kind, considerate, caring, understanding. He replied by telling me exactly how I fucked everything up and it's all my fault and that he had nothing to say about being kind/considerate/caring/understanding.

Well, that's a grand way to prioritize our children, by setting an example of how to hate each other and treat each other like shit because our feelings are hurt.

Amazing how he swore up and down he wasn't going to do that shit (after his ex-wife did it), but now that it's HIS feelings that are hurt, he has NO ISSUE being a first-class prick to me.

Beautiful.
Talk about hypocrisy.

So I blocked his number in my cell. There's still a "house cell" he can get messages to me through, but he's unlikely to be quite the ass, because he knows our 7-year old reads all of the messages on it. It's her phone to contact him and GG with.

He can reach me via email. But at least he can't interrupt me throughout my day spewing his animosity and venom. I can't handle it any more.

He's dead set that any pain or sadness or struggle I am going through is my own fault and, therefore, doesn't deserve any empathy. He's bound and determined to make sure I know it.

He can't break out of his self-centered pity party long enough to realize that verbally attacking me, emotionally berating and degrading me, etc. are a sure fire way to harm our children, ESPECIALLY when I'm their ONLY caretaker for the next 6 months. WTF?

I spent most of the hours of the last 4 days unable to stop crying. The energy is gone. No longer sobs. Just the tears pouring down my face while I sit there silently.

By NO MEANS do I claim to be perfect. I'm not self-righteous enough to even try. I know damn good and well I am a talented fuck-up, in more ways that I can begin to detail in the limited number of words this board will allow in one post. But holy shit, I'm not a cruel, vindictive, self-centered bitch. I wouldn't wish this sort of treatment on HIS EX-WIFE, and believe me, I can NOT stand her at all.

The part that is twisting me up inside though, isn't his bullshit. It's the fear of falling into the abyss again. A concept he doesn't fucking understand and I am done trying to explain.

I remember when I was taking Social Psychology, one of the poignant lectures was about Attribution Theory and Self-Serving Bias. The instructor was explaining the concepts and what was "typical" human behavior. In this one specific lecture, he pointed out verbally and had noted on his PowerPoint, that while normal people tend to attribute bad things that happen in their lives to other people or "bad luck," and good things to themselves (their intelligence, good decision making, good behavior etc.), that people with depression did NOT fit that model. Depression alters the way people think. People with depression are prone to blaming themselves for everything that goes wrong, and explaining things that go right as someone else's doing or luck of the draw.

That was a big "red flag" sign to me. It was also an educational moment. It explained to me the difference between how I tend to see things (always blaming myself for everything that goes wrong) and the way others around me perceive things (also always blaming me [yes, that was me being snarky]).

The problem is that even knowing that I have this depression issue and this tendency to blame myself for things that I actually have no control over doesn't stop me from doing it.

That same professor regularly reminded us that just because we KNOW that these various tendencies exist in human thought and behavior (cognitive bias, self-serving bias, cognitive dissonance, dispositional attribution etc.), doesn't mean we can stop it from happening. It just means we can be aware and more likely to catch it after the fact.

Well, for the record, for a person with depression, having someone spend so much time shoving down your throat that you are a total fuck-up, that you are the cause of everything that goes wrong, that you are all that is evil and wrong in the world creates support for the belief that it is, in fact, all your fault.

So sorry to read that things continue in this way.

It shouldn't be as tough as this to dissolve a relationship due to a basic incompatibility. It's tough because of needing to change living arrangements, to change when, where and how children see each of their parents. It's tough because of the grieving over lost dreams and plans for the future.

It should not be tough because one person is set on blaming and shaming the other for the incompatibility.

You are not to blame for this LR and you shouldn't be needing to go through what you are currently going through.

That same professor regularly reminded us that just because we KNOW that these various tendencies exist in human thought and behavior (cognitive bias, self serving bias, cognitive dissonance, dispositional attribution etc):
doesn't mean we can stop it from happening. It just means we can be aware and more likely to catch it after the fact.

Click to expand...

I very much agree with your professor that knowing isn't enough to stop our brains from working in those ways. I think that sometimes it is possible to shift from catching it after the fact to sometimes seeing it as it is approaching and stopping it then.

Developing habits of self reflection should help - something you are excellent at already. Just being aware of the possibility for problematic thought patterns can help to catch them and stop them sometimes. Social groups can help too - being with people regularly who think differently can help. It's possible to change things by doing too I think. Exercise helps, learning new things, doing different things - all gives you stuff to counter your mind's argument that anything good is luck and anything bad is down to you.

I don't suffer from depression but I do have a strong tendency toward anxiety. I've been that way forever. My mum tells me that as a small child learning to walk, I would do things like sit on the edges of kerbs to climb down onto roads. I was so nervous that my brother who is 18 months younger than me walked first. When I was 3 I spent a week crying and unable to sleep because I'd watched a news article about a satellite that was going to crash to earth and I was worried it would land on our house. As a teenager I spent several years lying awake for 2 - 3 hours a night worrying about the house being broken into.

As an adult, I'm pretty much fine. I've never had to take medication for anxiety or sought the help of a counsellor. I'm aware of it as a tendency so I watch for weird worries and try to sort through the ones that are useful and I should pay attention to and the ones that are just ridiculous. Many of the closest people to me are not like me - I'm very attracted to personalities who are much more risk takers than I am. Those people tend to be very attracted to me as well so I have a number of friends that help just by being themselves. I do new things whenever I can too - I think that if I didn't, I'd end up living in a very narrow world.

I grew up with excellent, supportive parents too who never forced me to face fears but just gently offered support and encouragement until I was ready. That has helped loads.

Actually, being a bit anxious and tending towards worrying is useful in my job and has been a strong positive in my personal life too.

It seems to me like you have good people around you and lots of good coping skills. I think that you will come through this time and be absolutely fine. You've always seemed like a person of great strength and compassion to me, somebody who approaches their mental health problems in a way that is likely to help. You already do all of this stuff and I think it helps you and will continue to help you.

Hugs to you - I hope the dark times are behind you soon.

IP

I'm so sorry LR. I suffer from depression also and this year has been a bitch for me, triggered by outside events. I so understand the worry that you will fall into the abyss. I've starred down that hole more than I would have wanted to the last few months. Please know that there are people who care about you. If you need someone to talk to who understands, feel free to PM me.

I will also offer my ear if you'd like to PM anyone LR. I know I'm a total stranger, but if it is something you think would help, I'm open to having a conversation for you to vent or bounce ideas around or whatever.

I've managed to stop making my brain thinking in those ways, but it has been a long road and I think it will be something I have to be very mindful of for a long time if not forever. I'd be happy to share some of what worked for me, although I'm guessing everyone's road out of the abyss is very different and unique to them. I'm hoping more light finds its way into your life soon.

I know that it helped me a lot to allow myself some of my own light that I always gave away to others.

I'm sorry things are so difficult, LR. I am glad, though, that despite your depression, you recognize that you DON'T deserve the way he's treating you. Speaking from the perspective of having depression myself... it's taken me a very long time to learn that if things go badly in a relationship, it isn't all my fault, and I don't deserve to have a partner shitting on me.

I hope things get better for you. And even though it is incredibly hard to remember this sometimes, the bad things aren't your fault. You aren't the only one who's been in your relationship, so you can't be the only one with responsibility now that it's gone sour.

He messaged me this afternoon about finance stuff. But he had to throw out there that he assumed I was out having a date night last night because he messaged me and I didn't respond. (I didn't get the message.) I let him know that no, as a matter of fact, I wasn't out on a date, I was at home struggling with schoolwork, because I am flunking two of my four classes on account of being so emotional and stressed I can't focus and concentrate like I should be. I HEAR the information but it goes in one ear and out the other with the anxiety.

He proceeded to berate me for several hours while I REPEATEDLY told him that I couldn't handle it, please stop, etc. He didn't stop until I pointed out that it was cruel and vindictive TO HIS CHILDREN to leave them in my care AND THEN EMOTIONALLY AND MENTALLY TORTURE AND TORMENT ME as their SOLE caretaker.
He replied, "I wasn't being sarcastic! JESUS! GOOD NIGHT."
Um... sarcasm be damned, you were being an ASSHOLE.

Yeah, I got the memo, as far as you are concerned, EVERYTHING that is wrong in our relationship is MY FAULT and that I could fix it by doing ONE thing, which is to stop having a relationship with Panther until he agrees to forgive you for threatening his life and build a friendship with you.

Except we both know that is bullshit.

EVEN IF HE CALLED TOMORROW and said that, you wouldn't believe it and you would still say you don't trust him (trust him with WHAT????) and you would never agree to me having a relationship with him. BECAUSE you ALSO said (again in the same conversation this evening) that you "only asked that I not date HIM." Which is true, after you asked him if he wanted to fuck me without running it by me in the first place. So it's OK if YOU organize it. It's ok if YOU set it up. It's ok if YOU get to control it. But it's NOT OK if I choose who I fuck.

THAT is my issue. I do NOT WANT a relationship with ANYONE who thinks that they have a right to decide who I fuck. PERIOD. I don't care what you were thinking or why. I decide what I do with MY BODY. I will accept input from people I love and care about. But it is MY CHOICE, and MINE ALONE. Period.

You don't want to be around my lovers, NO PROBLEM. You don't like them, NO PROBLEM.

BUT you don't get to tell me who my lovers will or will not be. You don't get to CONTROL me.

AND ALL OF THAT IS ARBITRARY because YOU SAID we are NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE. YOU ended OUR relationship because YOU are NOT OK WITH BEING MY HUSBAND IF I FUCK PANTHER. And I'm fucking Panther.

SO, we aren't a fucking couple anymore, which means you don't get a say so in who I fuck or when. You can control who I have IN YOUR HOUSE while I'm still living here. But you don't get a say in my personal relationships AT ALL. And I'm NOT interested in going backwards. I am NOT interested in going BACK to the fucked-up marriage we had.

I am NOT interested in having a relationship with ANYONE, including you, who isn't willing to upfront acknowledge, point by point discuss each and every line, and AGREE to the list of individual rights that I have sent you repeatedly.
You have POINT BLANK REFUSED to go through it line by line with me. You REFUSE to negotiate terms for a relationship of any sort.
YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO BE FWBs and I told you that I was agreeable to that, BUT ONLY IF WE NEGOTIATED TERMS because I will NOT have any further relationships with ANYONE until terms are negotiated.

And you have avoided doing that. So at this point there is no relationship. There is no agreement. I do NOT owe you an explanation of who I fuck or when I fuck etc., etc., etc., because I am NOT FUCKING YOU. And that isn't going to change until or unless you decide to:

A) drop the topic of everything from the past
B) negotiate terms for a future

I am NOT going to negotiate regarding any other lovers. So if that is something you want in your relationships; don't waste your time or mine chasing me. Because I'm NOT GOING TO DO IT.

I have been systematically going through the house, cleaning, throwing away shit, organizing etc. I do a little bit every day. There's a lot of stuff that will have to be gotten rid of, a lot of things that need to be returned to whichever random person left them here etc.

This morning I noticed a box in "our" room (which I am in process of moving out of). I am moving my stuff (which is the majority of things in here) from a 330 square foot room to a less than 100 square foot room. Kind of ironic, since he's not even fucking living here, but I end up with the smallest room in the house. But WHATEVER.

Anyway, I notice this box that is marked "Maca's lost love" that I KNOW wasn't there before. It's duct taped shut. I open it and realize that in it is all of my lingerie, including the stuff GG gave me. Including the nightgown and bra I have been asking about for MONTHS that he swore up and down he had NO IDEA where it could have gone and he was SURE he brought it back from Kodiak. The last time I wore both was the weekend I rushed to Kodiak to check on him and try to resolve the conflict brewing between us because I had said I was going to pursue a FWB relationship with Panther.

So... yeah. he bold-faced lied to me REPEATEDLY since then. He took all of my lingerie (and most of my sex toys) and packed them up in a box for himself.

I am SO angry. So offended. So hurt. WTF I have checked in with him about everything I have gotten rid of (none of which was meaningful to either of us). I have POINTEDLY reassured him that I wasn't getting rid of shit that was special to him or me or us or whatever. But he's hiding MY SHIT from me?!?!?!?!?

He is dead set that the single action of me choosing to pursue a FWB relationship with Panther, in spite of his demand that I not do so, because he wanted Panther to "resolve their differences first" (their differences were that Maca was a royal jackass to Panther for no fucking reason because he was afraid of me being submissive to a man other than him and he can sense that Panther is a dominant personality like he is)
What's to resolve?
You said you are sorry.
He said he wanted nothing to do with you until you and I had resolved our shit.
THEN you threatened him and he said he was done, he wanted nothing to do with you, period.

Panther has not called. He has not sent messages. He has not come to the house. He has done NOTHING disrespectful or inappropriate to you. He has left you the FUCK ALONE. But he needs to resolve the differences between the two of you because otherwise you want a divorce.

Seriously, THAT is a control issue and I'm not property.

It would be different if Panther was harassing him or talking shit about him or anything. But he isn't. He isn't interested in talking about him at all. He isn't interested in participating in any of the drama at all.
I am not a child or a piece of property.
I am not disrespecting you by choosing to have a romance with someone who treats me well and leaves you alone. Just because YOU don't like him doesn't mean he's a bad person or that he's a bad person for me to date. It means he's a bad person for YOU to date and that's not an issue because you are both straight!

I am SO tired of hearing how "this train wreck is all because you chose a FWB OVER ME."

No.
It's because I chose self respect over allowing YOU TO CONTROL ME AND MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME.
It's because I chose the right to decide for MYSELF who I share my body with OVER letting YOU decide who I share my body with.
It's because I chose ME over YOU.

Maybe you missed the part where I did NOT choose to allow ANYONE, including Panther, any of those rights. It wasn't him over you. It was ME over you.

It was far past the time that I start treating myself as a person.
It was far past the time for me to stop letting you make decisions FOR me.
You weren't making them WITH me, you were making them FOR me.

You didn't REQUEST that I not see him. You DEMANDED I not see him. Because a request leaves the right to say NO without punishment. You DEMANDED that it be your way or you were leaving me. Leaving me was the punishment for not obeying you.
But you don't own me and I don't owe you obedience.

I don't want a relationship with someone who orders me around. I want a relationship where both parties are treated as individuals who can and should think for themselves. Where respect for differences is afforded. Where people can agree to disagree without trying to get revenge upon each other. Where kindness and consideration is more important than placing blame.

I was so hurt this morning/afternoon. The tears have been nonstop for days. After hours of him telling me AGAIN, with the addition this time of it being about karma and how I am causing the "train wreck" that is destroying "our whole life" and if I just altered my choice about having a FWB everything would be fine... I am fucking livid.

At what point does a person quit having the privilege of laying all of the blame on their spouse?!?!
HOLY FUCK!
I have been his fucking scapegoat for YEARS.

For crying out loud, yes, I know, I fuck shit up.
But GOD DAMN IT, how hard is it to understand that we don't live in a fucking vacuum?

It's impossible for it to be "all my fault." It's also impossible for it to "all be resolved" by me telling Panther I won't have anything to do with him unless whatever, because that act alone is going to CREATE other issues.

Why is it so freaking hard for him to see that him talking down to me, blaming me, judging me, calling Panther my "boytoy" and all the little things he does to be sure I know he hates him, those things do NOT make him attractive to me AT ALL. They disgust me. They offend me.

They are in fact the exact thing that makes me NOT be willing to do what he asks. Because he's such a dick about it-I have NO desire to even consider his request and I never will.
I don't want to be with someone who is a dickhead to other people.
ANY OTHER PEOPLE.
If you can't be kind, considerate and respectful to others-EVERY OTHER PERSON-you aren't a kind, considerate and respectful person.
It means MORE to me that you be kind, considerate and respectful to other people than it means for you to be those things to me.

I am so sorry you deal in this verbal abuse. Please be careful.

Would you be willing and able to say nothing, or to hang up the phone if he goes off into abuse, or when he is fishing like this?

He messaged me this afternoon about finance stuff. But he had to throw out there that he assumed I was out having a date night last night because he messaged me and I didn't respond (I didn't get the message).

Click to expand...

He throws it out there. You could not respond with your personal life data. Whether it's a date or homework, it's not his biz any more. You guys are not together. Could you conduct business over email?

I see he has become energy drain that affects you and the quality of your childcare. Since you guys are breaking up, could you be willing and able to let him think his erroneous things without correcting him? If he assumes you were on a date when you were doing homework, just let him assume?

In this case, I think standing up for yourself could be expressed better as not engaging with a known energy-draining person. You could cut him off and stand up for yourself that way, rather than spending time and energy correcting/explaining to him when he's not listening anyway.

From my POV, understanding ENDS the conversation. But keeping it going means he is the center of your attention. It is an ego boost to be the center of your attention. It is in his interest to NOT understand and NOT end the conversation so he can keep on tapping you.

I think less time on phone with him sounds better for both you and the kids right now. Business only. Preferably email.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

I totally concur with GalaGirl, especially in light of the end of my r'ship with Ginger, who kept poking at me to keep him in the center of my universe when I was ready to move on.

Disengage. You are not going to make anything better by arguing with him for hours on email or phone, or by addressing rants to him here.

He's not right for you anymore. Stop talking to him, unless it's the bare minimum about the kids or finances. Some people in acrimonious divorces don't speak at all, except through lawyers.

Don't share any personal info with him about your life, schooling, dating, friendships, if you took a shit yet today. Be done. It's over.

Ugh, LR... More internet hugs if you can take them.

For what it's worth, I concur with GalaGirl and Mags. By refusing to engage with those types of comments, you effectively take back (and keep) control of the conversation (in addition to not letting him have power to manipulate your emotions). Laying down your boundaries and saying, "I will not be spoken to like this, and I will hang up if it continues" and then following through will eventually show him that you're serious, even if it ramps up his tantrums when you begin to do this.

It may be worth lurking on http://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/ or http://www.reddit.com/r/NarcissisticAbuse/ even if he isn't a Narc. The folks there give great advice on how to go low-contact (or no-contact) with toxic people, and even though you need to be in touch with him right now, some of the advice given might help you enforce your own communication boundaries and avoid this cycle of abuse.