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  #101  
Old 04-24-2010, 04:19 AM
Anne Anne is offline
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This is really beautiful, and close to what I guess. IŽd like to know if there is a word for jealousy in all languages.
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  #102  
Old 04-25-2010, 03:45 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bovellum View Post
Im thinking that I agree with the OP and also with you dh, though I am not sure that I see how all thoughts and actions are born of one or the other and not possibly a third option at times - pain for instance?

What if the significant other is just plain neglectful and the jealousy is not rooted in one's fear but the painful experience of their very real needs not being met? Could there not be a form of jealousy that is rooted in the pain of longing alone - sans the fear?

Whereas fear can only be experienced in regards to things that have not yet happened, the pain of longing is in the present and therefore distinct from the fear of future events. I think that maybe in this way jealousy can be real.

However, the flip side (as dh implies) is that love should still be the anti-venom on both counts - for with the fulfilling love of the self, God and the Universe, longing should not exist; jealousy (fear or longing) is conquered by love.
We've had some discussion here and other places on getting clarity on the distinction between "jealousy" and "envy" as they are often confused and that confusion can lead to inappropriate understanding and action.

"Jealousy" is indeed a fear based emotion - fear of the unknown, fear of self constructed possibilities. The possible loss of a vision that maybe only WE see.

"Envy" is a least as common. Rooted in greed and selfishness. We have wants. Someone else seems to be more successful at fulfilling their wish list. We're maybe not doing so hot. Can't be our OWN fault - must be someone else's ? And in reality - it may be that we are helping them. So we we grab the self-sacrifice card.

All emotions that conflict with the true spirit of love & giving. Not the kind of things we want or need to embrace in our life - right ?

GS
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  #103  
Old 04-25-2010, 07:27 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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GS-

I think this is a key detail that MANY of us miss (me included until just now on a topic as a matter of fact!)

My question is-would you consider writing a thread on the difference of jealousy and envy (in your eyes) and how one deals with each productively?

I grasp the difference as you identified it. Makes perfect sense.
What I'm struggling with mentally right now is that obviously we talk a LOT about how to deal with, control and resolve FEAR based emotions/reactions.

What about a greed/selfcentered emotion/reaction?

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  #104  
Old 04-26-2010, 01:42 AM
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How's this sound, "jealousy is envy without any compersion."
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  #105  
Old 04-27-2010, 07:22 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Default Envy has 2 "A"s in it !

I was thinking of this before and thanks to the prompting of a very special friend here, I thought I'd try to share my view and approach to the Jealousy/Envy thing.

Jealousy gets talked about a lot and approaches to dealing with it are plentiful. And strangely enough, at least in my mind, jealousy is the more simple of the two to get a grip on. Because it's a fear thing - once the fear is proven unfounded (the tiger was paper!) then it's basically done ! Not that we don't have to remind ourselves of that paper tiger on occasion - or even take a match to it (again) but once understood - always understood.

Envy now.........well that's another whole dragon indeed !

Maybe why we don't talk about it is because we were ALL taught as children how to combat things like greed and selfishness etc. We thought. But it keeps coming back. And I think a lot of us forget how cruel a thing it is and how critical it is to banish it. So we don't talk much about it. Or acknowledge it. And it keeps nipping at our heels.

And maybe we should ! (talk)

I like to think Envy has two 'A's in it

A1 - Acceptance
A2 - Action

The first 'A' - Acceptance. I think we let slip from our mind that there's no "equality" in life. Some say no fairness etc. It is what it is. There will always be people who have "more" of something than us and we will have "more" than others. And even this of course is in constant flux. Today it's this way - tomorrow may be entirely different.
Acceptance. It is what it is !
Allowing ourselves to dwell on the inequities in life only uses up mental and emotional resources that could be better used elsewhere (to be addressed in a minute). It introduces conflict and unhappiness over something that sometimes is not even in our control. We are NOT the center of the known universe ! OMG !

So I think the first step to leashing this dragon is that acceptance. When we frame this in the context of relationships and time etc, we have to be realistic. Time seems to be one area where envy surfaces. Most of us aren't masters of all our own time. We're pulled in a lot of directions by various commitments and responsibilities. So it happens that times sync up for some people at some time better than others. Then it may switch around. There's no equality, no balance and though it sucks, you still are stuck with the same choices. Accept that it's the way things go sometimes or drive yourself crazy fighting against the nature of life. Because sometimes it's just dumb luck and there's nothing we could have done differently to change the outcome anyway.
And in the spirit of love & giving, can't we celebrate at least for a moment that someone we care about happens to be coming out on top of all this random craziness ? Do we wish it was us too - hell ya ! But it isn't - yet. Acceptance. Sanity. Compersion ?

Now.............

All that being said, there's still the other 'A' left in the picture.

"Action"

Sometimes, when it appears someone else is the beneficiary of some "more" something - there's a reason. Sometimes that reason is that they've put more effort in to obtain it ! The family next door has a new car, boat and cottage on the lake. But they both work 80 hrs a week at professional positions they spent years in school for, and someone else takes car of their kids, cleans the house etc. They wanted it - they went and made it happen. Envy ? Unjustified and self destructive UNLESS we are willing to put in the same effort and sacrifice.
And then of course - on the other side - well - they just hit the lottery ! No effort required. Dumb luck.
Envy ? Why ? Pointless negative energy. How about we celebrate their luck with them ? Even buy them a gift for good luck ! Which do we think will make us feel better and let us move forward with our own lives better ? What will help make us more loving - and lovable ? Karma anyone ?
Choice !

And I see similar parallels in love & relationships too. At least in how they play out. Sometimes some people have put tremendous effort into themselves. Trying to learn to be a better person. They have become very "lovable". Desirable to be around. Warm and comfortable.
Trying to better be owners & directors of their own time. Made choices that put them in better positions more frequently. More flexibility.

But these are "action" items. Things we put intentional effort into with the expectation of rewards if we pull it off. But sitting back, crying "foul-unfair (envy)", doesn't move us closer to what we want. Only WE can move us closer sometimes. Action.
And yea, sometimes someone flies us there - free ! It happens. The equivalent of the lottery win. It happens !
Well damn ! You lucky bitch/bastard - let me give you a hug ! That's a choice too. I'm a believer in Karma And even if I wasn't - it sure makes me feel a lot better.

So it can look like a circle, where we move from acceptance to action and sometimes back around to acceptance. Every day is unique. But if we can be engaged in the process rather than wasting time sitting on the sidelines, the law of averages may work in our favor. All choices.

Thoughts & ramblings............

GS
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  #106  
Old 04-27-2010, 07:45 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Excellent post GS...things I consider all the time. Reading your post is liking reading bits of my life. Thanks for the perspective
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  #107  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:20 PM
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Default jealousy in different poly lifestyles

So, I think we have established that there are different types of Poly relationships from married/long term couples that are involved with other partners in a family or more poly fidelity kind of way, to a more casual swinging/open type of way. There also are relationships whereby the person or persons are all unattached to a primary and have many lovers/partners of varying types and styles.

Are there differences in the level of jealousy between different styles of poly? I mean, I would THINK, that in a situation where there is a primary couple, there would be more jealousy within that couple as opposed to someone who has no primary. Is jealousy lower in this latter group do you think?
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  #108  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:24 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Perhaps not jealousy, but territoriality. People who are "opening up" their monogamous relationship have up to that point probably thought of one another as "my husband" or "my wife" or "my partner", where someone who has been "open" from the get-go would not have this conditioning to un-do.
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  #109  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:26 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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hmmm well in my limited experience I have to say I really don't (I will say yet) feel jealousy in regards to my primary. In the end we have a long established happy relationship that I can't see any reason for ending. With that security I am comfortable and confident.

However I have felt jealousy over our secondary. That was almost purely due to the fact that she would not...hmmmm...commit (in a non-monogamous way of course)...we never knew whether she was coming or going. This brought up every insecurity I ever had. When we went out, I wondered why she wasn't with me, at home she wasn't touching etc. It never officially ended or started....so I had a lot of jealousy. I hate guessing...

Will I feel jealousy with any new secondary, no idea. I would like to think I wouldn't. But really who knows.
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  #110  
Old 04-28-2010, 04:58 PM
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geminigirl geminigirl is offline
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I'd say "not necessarily" because jealousy can stem from so many differing causes. In a well-established, longterm primary relationship there can be more trust and better communication and therefore less need for jealousy, for example. Newer relationships that are still experiencing NRE can be more prone to some types of jealousy stemming from insecurity and uncertainty about the stability of the relationship.

On the other hand, someone who is comfortable with not having a primary may be better equipped to handle jealousy when it happens, and have fewer problems with this so it might "look" like they are less jealous overall. I think ultimately jealousy is more of an internal issue and less related to relationship style and structure than it is to how well a person knows themselves and handles stress, uncertainty and fear in their life.

*Edited to clarify that I have actually experienced both situations/poly styles (ie. as part of an established, longterm couple and as a "single" person dating multiple people but not having a primary of my own.

Last edited by geminigirl; 04-28-2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: to clarify something
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communication, compassion, compersion, emotions, envy, feelings, jealous, jealousy, monogamy, poly, polyamory, possessiveness, relationship dynamics, relationship structures, relationships, respect, self esteem, unconscious

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