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  #111  
Old 05-13-2014, 09:22 PM
Eponine Eponine is offline
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Originally Posted by mmkeekah View Post
I respectfully disagree with you rdos. To a majority of people sex is part of love - and in my humble opinion, I feel it is incorrect to state that because the fixed definition of polyamory does not include the word "sex" directly in it that it means sex is optional.
When I (and many others) say sex is optional in polyamory, what it means is you don't have to have sexual relationships to be polyamorous. But I do acknowledge that sex isn't just optional in many people's personal relationships, be they mono or poly.
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  #112  
Old 05-13-2014, 09:26 PM
KC43 KC43 is offline
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That was what I meant in my post as well. Polyamory does not HAVE TO include sex, since it means *loving* more than one person. It most definitely can include sex, but that isn't a requirement for polyamory.

Guy and I don't have sex because he's 900 miles away and neither of us has body parts that stretch that far. But we most definitely have a relationship that, on my end at least, is polyamorous.
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  #113  
Old 05-14-2014, 01:09 AM
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mmkeekah mmkeekah is offline
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I think it's the idea that swinging "requires" sex to me that bothers me. I don't think that is necessarily true. It makes it sound like if you go to a swinging event, you are "required" to have sex. And that is not true. And it's a damaging comment. When someone states swingers are "in it" for sex, it sounds negative.

There are swingers who never have sex with anyone outside of their partnerships. And while it may be couple-centric, there are feelings involved at times as well and yet I don't think they would consider themselves poly either.
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  #114  
Old 05-14-2014, 02:49 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Ahem ... I hope I didn't give the impression I was singling you out mmkeekah, or trying to give you a bad time. If anything, maybe I was trying to give the whole forum a bad time. You know, ask uncomfortable questions that make people think.

See now what I kind of think is that it's good to have a sex-positive outlook on life in general. For example, let's say a couple of people were having sex, and it was just for the sheer sake of sex. Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sex is great, awesome, etc. ... granted it's not everyone's cup of tea, but if anyone is having sex just because they like sex, I say cool, go for it. It's hot.

I don't know what the "right" definition for swinging is (Can there be a right definition?), but if it were "People getting together just to have sex," I wouldn't think that was a bad thing. Sex is cool.

Having said that, I also don't mind giving swingers credit for other stuff besides just sex. This is actually educational for me, I didn't realize extrasexual elements of human interaction mattered a lot to swingers, but now I think such elements do matter a lot.

If I was looking for concrete definitions (and I suppose I was to some extent) for poly and swing, for purposes of comparison or whatever, then I find that you (mmkeekah) provided perfectly good ones:

Swinging:
Quote:
"The practice of partners in a committed relationship (i.e. in love) or single people engaging in sexual activities with other consenting adults as a recreational or social activity."
Polyamory:
Quote:
"The practice of building multiple intimate relationships at a time with other consenting adults."
Sounds good to me.

The general impression I get (from everyone in general so far) is that swinging and polyamory, taken as a whole, both have sex going on in many instances, while in certain particular cases (of swinging or polyamory), maybe sex isn't going on. Now is swinging and/or polyamory a sexual word? I'm guessing that most of the unwashed masses, when they hear "polyamory" or "swinging," the first thing that comes to their mind is "sex." And if that's true, maybe that's the problem. Maybe we need more people to understand that "polyamory" and "swinging" are relationship words.

Still, there's the virtues of sex-positive perspective to consider. If people want to think of me as slutty because I'm poly, for example, that's actually okay with me. I'm glad and proud to be slutty. Wish I'd embraced that part of me a long time ago.

Not sure if that helps, but at least I didn't ask as many questions that time.
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  #115  
Old 05-14-2014, 03:51 AM
AlwaysGrowing AlwaysGrowing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmkeekah View Post
I think it's the idea that swinging "requires" sex to me that bothers me. I don't think that is necessarily true. It makes it sound like if you go to a swinging event, you are "required" to have sex. And that is not true. And it's a damaging comment. When someone states swingers are "in it" for sex, it sounds negative.

There are swingers who never have sex with anyone outside of their partnerships. And while it may be couple-centric, there are feelings involved at times as well and yet I don't think they would consider themselves poly either.
Do you identify as a swinger? If so, why did you become one?

When I have identified as a swinger, I did so because I wanted to have purely casual sex with people. No potential for anything beyond friendship and sex. I was 100% in it for the sex, and I'm sure I will be again in the future. I don't consider it a bad thing; I consider it a personal preference. There's no point (IMO) of identifying as a swinger if you're not having swinger sex (casual sex with someone other than your committed partner/s). In my mind, swinging DOES require sex. Going to a swingers' event is not swinging to me, so I see no damage. I agree with kdt that sex is fun, so I also don't see being "in it" for the sex as a negative.

At the moment, I attend swingers' clubs/parties on occasion. I do not consider myself a swinger, because I don't have sex. At times I'm a voyeur, others an exhibitionist, sometimes I just go to hang out with some cool people. Just because I go to a swingers' event doesn't mean I'm a swinger and it also doesn't mean I have to have sex.

But that's all just me.
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  #116  
Old 05-14-2014, 05:00 AM
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That makes sense to me.

Like, if I go to a swing club but don't participate, I can self-identify as a "swing event attendee;" it's not like my self-worth will take a ding if I don't self-identify as an actual swinger.

Still, I guess voyeurism is a type of participation that one could define as "one way of not having sex." It depends on what sex is defined as, and there's all kinds of opinions on that.

In examining Wiktionary, I observe that only intercourse counts as having sex. Yet Wiktionary also has a specific entry for oral sex. And for phone sex. And for cybersex. So obviously "sex" contains many subsets that aren't mentioned in the main entry for sex. Maybe voyeurism is one of those subsets -- who knows?
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  #117  
Old 05-14-2014, 06:56 AM
rdos rdos is offline
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Polyamory:

"The practice of building multiple intimate relationships at a time with other consenting adults."

I don't think this is a good definition, as "intimate" in most people's mind means sex, and thus this definition again excludes asexual polyamory.

I would prefer:
"The practice of building multiple attachments at a time with other consenting adults."

Or:
"The practice of building multiple romantic attachments at a time with other consenting adults."
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  #118  
Old 05-14-2014, 01:16 PM
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mmkeekah mmkeekah is offline
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I identify as a bisexual polyamorous swinger although I am neither swinging nor am I in a polyamorous relationship right now.

Just because I am not in either right now, I still identify as both because I believe it is possible to have casual sex relationships in a responsible manner and to be intimately and romantically involved with more than one person at a time. While I understand and respect other people's right to be monogamous, I have no inclination nor desire to ever identify as that myself, although technically, I am currently monogamous as I am only romantically involved with my long term partner and I only have sex with him at this time.

I don't think you have to actively have sex to identify or be either a swinger or polyamorous. I think you just have to understand what it is and know for yourself, if the timing and people were right, you could do either.

I attend both polyamorous and swinging events - because I like the open nature of the event - well mostly open... I mean, as long as you act like the people in the room - as long as you conform to their standards and thoughts - then you are welcome. But I try to set that aside because at least when I'm with one or the other, the tendency is for them to be as open minded as the rules of that group allow them to be. I also take my monogamous friends - those who are brave enough to go - or invite them to my events with the hopes that they will at least understand that, while you don't have to swing/be poly, there are some really cool people who identify as one or the other - again trying to put a human face to these titles we assign ourselves.

It seems to me (and I find it upsetting and sad) that other poly people look down on monos and swingers. And other swingers look down on monos, don't understand poly people and actively dislike bi males. It isn't my ideal - either situation - but these are my choices. My choice is also to never actively support when either group makes blank statements about a group of people based on a name or title in the hopes that there will be some understanding that there are actual humans involved behind the titles "swinger" and "poly."

Last edited by mmkeekah; 05-14-2014 at 01:25 PM.
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  #119  
Old 05-14-2014, 01:29 PM
rdos rdos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Still, I guess voyeurism is a type of participation that one could define as "one way of not having sex." It depends on what sex is defined as, and there's all kinds of opinions on that.
I think that voyeurism is related to exhibitionism (obviously, if you have one, you need the other as well), and that both of these are not related to sex in the traditional way (sexual intercourse for bonding). Technically, they are paraphilias.
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  #120  
Old 05-14-2014, 05:16 PM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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No arguments here ...

It seems that it can be appropriate to self-identify as anything that you'd participate in if the right opportunity presented itself -- understanding that you'd like such an opportunity.
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