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  #11  
Old 04-06-2014, 06:10 PM
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Makes sense.

Frankly, I don't support the idea of being able to withdraw consent after the fact, at all. He didn't call you back like he said he was going to? Well that's sad, but it's not rape. You were totally into it, but then he came and got up before you had yours? Shitty deal. Not rape.

In other words, you should know when you're being raped, while it's happening. It's not that hard to figure out "hey, something's happening to me right now, and I don't like it. I want this to stop." If you let it go and then you feel bad afterwards because you wish you would have stopped it, that's on you.

It's a problem of education, teaching women (and men for that matter) that they own their bodies and they control what happens to them, at every moment. You never "have to" give up the goods, no matter how many Margaritas he's bought you, no matter how far you've let it go before you change your mind. Teach women to have self-esteem and the date rape problem pretty much takes care of itself.

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I think there are also cases where one person is very aggressive and enthusiastic and the other is shocked and so doesn't say no right away, and then has this feeling that it's "too late" to say no
I was thinking about it this morning. Seems to me that even if the aggressor did take a second to ask "do you mind if I continue?" that someone who's so shocked and already feels it's too late to say no, is likely going to say "go ahead." If anything, the simple act of asking might make the person appear less aggressive and therefore even more likely to get explicit consent. So where does that leave us?
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2014, 06:44 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I think in the cases where it isn't legally considered rape, the words "violated" and "violation" work best. While they can be a synonym of rape, they're also broader.

I personally think that while there isn't a crime if there is no victim, there can be a victim without a criminal. It's definitely the case in, say, accidents. A hurricane destroys your house? You're a victim, there is no culprit. No human culprit, at least.

In that way, I think someone can be violated without a person being a conscious violator. Some cases of learning things after the fact can count. For instance, it would be traumatic to learn that someone who had sex with is actually a close biological relative. Or that they are a murderer. Or a variety of other things, including them being married.
I believe feeling violated is a very reasonable reaction to that kind of thing. However it's possible the other party did not want or plan it in any way. Even if they do, the violation isn't rape. It's the lying that surrounded the consensual sex.

So I also believe it's possible to be raped without the person who had sex with you being a rapist. To me, being a rapist implies consent and malevolence. In some cases, the person did not realise or know. I don't believe it's fair to claim the victim was not raped. However I don't believe it's fair to condemn the other person and call them a rapist, either. The most obvious case would be two people who both get drunk or high and have sex, both of them waking up to feel a range of negative emotions, including feeling raped. However they're not two rapists, they're just both victims there.

The problem then becomes the fact that when people feel bad, they like having someone to blame for it, they think it will help them move on. Sometimes though nobody did anything wrong and people still feel bad. It happens.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Frankly, I don't support the idea of being able to withdraw consent after the fact, at all.
I agree. It seems very important to me that consent may be withdrawn at any time during the act, but not after the fact. And if consent is withdrawn during the act, there is only rape if the other person keeps doing. The sex until then was consensual.


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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
I was thinking about it this morning. Seems to me that even if the aggressor did take a second to ask "do you mind if I continue?" that someone who's so shocked and already feels it's too late to say no, is likely going to say "go ahead." If anything, the simple act of asking might make the person appear less aggressive and therefore even more likely to get explicit consent. So where does that leave us?
I'm definitely in support of teaching people (especially women, who seem to need it more on average) that they can say no, that it's a valid choice and that they do have a choice. I believe it's not the whole picture though. In the case you're talking about, there is little to do as it's already happened. The person asking mid-way is at least asking.
Personally, I think that conning someone out of sex is similar to other conning. If you call people and get them to give you their credit card numbers and you steal their identity, they're being foolish to fall into your traps, and there is a certain amount of responsibility on your part. That doesn't mean they were right to begin with. Just that they were taking advantage of you because you're vulnerable to that kind of scam.

And unfortunately, I think there are people who work the same way. They pick vulnerable partners they feel won't stand up for themselves and say no, so that they have sex with them and can feel like they're not rapists, in the same way the person who got your credit card number isn't a thief who stole your card.

I think there should be a huge focus on owning your body in sex education. How you can always say no, at any time, but also how you should respect someone's "no". Because I think a big reason why some people don't dare say no is that they don't feel it will help, and it could put them in a more dangerous situation if it upsets the other person and they get violent.

So yeah, pretty much work on both sides there. I know I can say no, but I also know not to start having sex with someone I find attractive out of the blue. There is also definitely an amount of body language that should be telling. If you're having sex with someone who looks horrified and isn't moving, and it's not part of your roleplay, they might not be asking you to stop, but seriously, if you don't realise something might be wrong there is a problem with you.
But if you're going "oh, yes" and enthusiastically participating in the sex act, and you actually really, really don't want to do it, there is a problem with you, too. And even if you decided to call it rape because of how shitty it makes you feel, the only person who raped you in that case is yourself.
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Old 04-06-2014, 07:37 PM
london london is offline
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I think that credit card fraud example is a demonstration of how victims of other crimes could argue that they are affected by so called victim blaming.

I don't know about everywhere else, but there are plenty of campaigns and plenty of advice given in this country about how to avoid being a victim of credit card fraud yet I don't know if any movement which claims this is victim blaming and protests in order to get the focus shifted onto the perpetrators.

Advice given to people, particularly women, on how to avoid being a victim of rape, however, is viewed as victim blaming. It's weird.
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  #14  
Old 04-07-2014, 12:24 AM
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Is there a clean, clear line that can be drawn between "rape" and "not rape," or is there a gray area?
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  #15  
Old 04-07-2014, 04:54 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Is there a clean, clear line that can be drawn between "rape" and "not rape," or is there a gray area?
I think it's not clear cut. Many crimes, an outside observer would be able to tell. With rape, an outside observer isn't that useful. Could be consensual BDSM play, and look like rape. Could be rape, and look consensual because you didn't see the part where one person threatened the other. I think we wouldn't be having these kinds of discussions is there wasn't a gray area.
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  #16  
Old 04-07-2014, 05:58 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I think in the cases where it isn't legally considered rape, the words "violated" and "violation" work best.

I personally think that while there isn't a crime if there is no victim, there can be a victim without a criminal.

In that way, I think someone can be violated without a person being a conscious violator.
I think that makes a lot of sense. I like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
I don't know about everywhere else, but there are plenty of campaigns and plenty of advice given in this country about how to avoid being a victim of credit card fraud yet I don't know if any movement which claims this is victim blaming and protests in order to get the focus shifted onto the perpetrators.
To me, the important factor is when the "advice" happens. "Stay with friends and avoid the sketchy part of town" is education. "Well of course you got raped. You were outside after dark in a short skirt. What did you expect?" is victim blaming.

In other words, making it sound like the rapist had "every excuse" to rape someone is victim blaming. There's a huge difference between telling people how to minimize their chances of getting raped, and telling people that they basically deserved to get raped because they didn't minimize their chances.

Also, the blame in credit card fraud is already focused on the perps. Cops don't generally respond to little old ladies by telling them it's their fault they got their identity stolen. And despite that, usually it's the victim who has to pick up the pieces, unless they have kick ass ID theft insurance. Frankly, I would be in favour of a justice system that allows rape victims to find their own justice. Anyone got a sharp dull, rusty knife handy?
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 04-07-2014 at 06:03 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-07-2014, 09:06 PM
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In proportion to how little mercy a perpetrator shows his victim, that's how little mercy the perpetrator deserves to receive. Yet to put that principle into righteous practice, we need a justice system that deals out 100% accurate verdicts.
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