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  #91  
Old 02-28-2014, 12:40 AM
bofish bofish is offline
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BD- thank you for the education of SSDI versus SSI. So, I have had both --SSi (welfare) when I was young and SSDI which i paid for.

Woud you be open to directly speaking to what I wrote before -- about actually giving up SSDI for the pleasure of working? About my difficulty in maintaining that because of prejudice?

I don't see SSI and SSDI as our disagreement. I see it that you haven't acknowledged many people with disabilities inability to work as a societal problem versus a personal problem, and you ignored my list of people who have succeeded.

Thank Kevin !
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  #92  
Old 02-28-2014, 01:23 AM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Bofish, can you see anywhere where I called you judgemental.

Not everything is about you.

I was saying that mild is not a very well defined word and no one should judge that for anyone else.
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  #93  
Old 02-28-2014, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bofish View Post
NYC - I don't want to ignore your comment. I totally know what you mean. For the record, nearly all my friends have had abortions. One, like you describe, had an abortion with no regret or emotional pain. I don't UNDERSTAND but I can ACCEPT and not judge. But I am curious because your response is the usual feminist one... which leads to my orginal question - how does this leave room for any dialog on the prejudice of disability that bolds over into abortion?

I consider myself a feminist, in practice, not name, and I am totally aware of this argument. One of the reasons I don't identify as a feminist is the exclusion of disabled women. Many theorists believe this has to do, in part, with women's wanting to not associate with "bodies" society views as weaker.

London and others follow the thought that fetuses with disabilities are exclusively or largely aborted because the difficulty of raising such a child. This is simply not accurate ; Many many disabled fetuses are aborted because of PUBLIC PRECEPTION.

NYC- I totally understand where you are coming from...but that was exactly why I posted this. If feminists stick to this silence how can a dialog about abortions based on ableism, racism. and sexism take place. There has to be a way to discuss this AND make women be able to have safe, legal abvortions and their own opinions without stress. But don't you see, your opinion silences discussions about these issues as much a the pro-life saying "abortion is always bad" does. Just because your opinion is based on civil rights (and in my mind is CORRECT) it doesn't mean it doesn't silence dialog.
I am flabbergasted at the way in which you have interpreted my last post.

First of all, I am not arguing for or against anything. I am simply sharing my opinion as part of this discussion. Moreover, what has me completely puzzled is your assumption that my opinion is somehow a feminist stance and is "based on civil rights." Wha...??? I'm not even sure what that means, really. Where does that notion come from? I am not being "political" at all when expressing my views on this. I don't know what the feminists have to say about it, actually, as I haven't aligned myself with any political group in many years and don't do any reading about it. I come to my opinion via my own experiences and pondering on the subject, my personal evolution from "spiritual" to agnostic, and how I see humankind's place in the cosmos. That is all.

So, basically, I don't see abortion as this horrible thing that should burden us with guilt for the rest of our days. Making the choice to terminate a pregnancy it is just a part of life on this earth. Some women bring forth life in their wombs, some take it away. I don't think anyone should question or judge a woman's reasons for doing it. What is the point in that? The world keeps turning. What comes next - forcing women to give birth, as if their bodies are not their own, and their life choices are no longer theirs to make? I don't know why people aren't more sickened by and up in arms about the many kinds of abuse and suffering that so many children, elders, etc. endure in this world than by aborting a fetus.
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Last edited by nycindie; 02-28-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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  #94  
Old 02-28-2014, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bofish View Post
BD- thank you for the education of SSDI versus SSI. So, I have had both --SSi (welfare) when I was young and SSDI which i paid for.

Woud you be open to directly speaking to what I wrote before -- about actually giving up SSDI for the pleasure of working? About my difficulty in maintaining that because of prejudice?

I don't see SSI and SSDI as our disagreement. I see it that you haven't acknowledged many people with disabilities inability to work as a societal problem versus a personal problem, and you ignored my list of people who have succeeded.

Thank Kevin !
I work with many people who choose to give up with SSDI or even their SSI for the chance to work. I have never encountered one who had difficult maintaining their job due to prejudice. My job is to provide assistance to these individuals in learning and maintaining their jobs. 99% of the time any difficulties they have are due to reasons other than prejudice; poor fit of the job, lack of understanding of workplace norms or the inability to conform to workplace norms (not ablist norms) such as showing up on time, taking an appropriate break (they either want to take too long a break or not take a break at all), not saying every thing you think (such as asking customer's if you can touch their "baby" if they appear to be pregnant or telling your co-workers that you have your period and showing them your feminine products), swearing at customers, poor hygiene issues, stealing from your employers (We have one woman who cleans at a laundromat and if not supervised, she will steal customer's quarters that they set down on the counter), or choosing to stop taking their medication and behaving inappropriately on the job (one woman went off her meds and took her top off at work and got fired).

Generally employers in our area are for hiring people with disabilities. Occasionally, I get parents concerned about customer's potentially making comments and I remind them of a recent occurrence at our local Wegmans. An autistic cashier was going slower than his customer liked. She was very rude and aggressively so. Not only did his co-workers stand up for him, but the woman was asked not to return. This is generally the attitude in my area regarding the working disabled. Employers that I have personally worked with as a job coach hold all their employees to the same standards; they expect them to be on time, do their job to the best of their ability, respect their co-workers and supervisors and follow company policies.

As an employment counselor, I do feel that there are some people who should not work. You are not one of them, because you obviously have the right work ethic, education, and drive to succeed. I mainly get referrals for people who are in their early to mid 20's. They have IEP Diplomas, which do not count as a real high school diploma according to NYS and they are generally unable to pass the GED test, so are already under-qualified for many jobs that now require high school diplomas. Our society is pushing education requirements up to where I am under-qualified for some jobs by not having and MSW after my name. They come to me with the same sense of entitlement that all 20 somethings come with, that the world owes them a job and that it doesn't take hard work to find it. They get frustrated with me when I can't make it happen as quickly as they want. Some take their ticket to work to other agencies, some give up the job search in frustration, and others get a job only to find that they don't want to work in the field we spent months if not years trying to get them into.

There is one thing that I will agree with you about that does need changing in society as a whole that has come up in my training. Most people don't think about it, but up until the 1980's -1990's, it was thought that society should take care of people with disabilities - that is provide homes, income, and programs to entertain them. Because they were being provided for (SSI), they were not expected to work. And because of this, they weren't raised with the expectation that they would grow up and get a job. So when typical children were playing dress up, attending career day, and generally being socially conditioned to join the work place, disabled children were not. This has slowly been changing, with the introduction of work study programs for high schoolers with disabilities, but the problem is, that usually parents and teachers are the ones making the decisions about where they will work, etc. The programs vary - some schools the students "work" 2 hrs a day 5 days a week, other's they work half the school day, some only work a couple days a week. When a typical teen is getting their first part time job, families of disabled teens are just beginning to have conversations about the possibility of their teen working. So on average, they get 4 years to "prepare" for entering the work force, when typical children get 16. This isn't right, and it is changing - my son's generation has it better with inclusion classrooms, so maybe the girl in his kindergarten class 7 years ago will enter high school with the knowledge that she should be getting a part time job and what employers will expect, but those are not the people that I am working with.

Last edited by BrigidsDaughter; 02-28-2014 at 04:48 AM.
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  #95  
Old 02-28-2014, 06:01 AM
london london is offline
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* not all babies with heart defects are aborted
* heart problems are one issue Downs people can have
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  #96  
Old 02-28-2014, 04:53 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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BD,

Thank you so much for writing all this. I have learned so much from you.

I understand and can empathize with the situation.

I think there might be two differences I am not keying into. 1. It sounds like your area of the state is particularly non-prejudicial and that is enlightening and wonderful.

2. I am in a high playing field. I have two Masters and a publishing record and am qualified to be a professor or high school teacher -- probably overqualified for the latter. The people you work with seem to have exclusively lower level positions. Maybe there is something to the fact that having a lower level position is 'acceptable" for a person with a disability and being is a position of "power" is not. The former fits with the perception of disabled people.

That said, it is still great progress. 40 years ago people with disabilities were just shoved into institutions. As you probably know, it took people being handcuffed and carted off to jail to insure curb-cuts and the ADA.

People tend to think things like the ADA happened out of the kindness of people's hearts, but they were fought for like all civil rights.
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  #97  
Old 02-28-2014, 05:03 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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I am truly sorry I made that assumption of you. I was wrong. I made it because that is what feminists standby.

"I don't think anyone should question or judge a woman's reasons for doing it. What is the point in that?"

I am 100% for legal abortion and a women's right to chose.

I do see the point in discussing aborting disabled fetuses tho because I see that abortion as an extension of the many many many other ways prejudice and ableism functions in society.

My main point is this. I want to DISCUSS. I do not understand (on either side) the point of saying a woman can or a woman can't have an abortion and that's IT. Discussion isn't to promote guilt or 'you should feel bad forever." It's to discuss the attitudes toward "the disabled" that the abled have.

KT -I just though of one thing regarding "becoming disabled" I was on the bus today and I saw all the old people. I remembered most people WILL become disabled. They will lose hearing, sight, or may use a wheelchair or a cane. They may end up in diapers. They will lose their sexual attraction and ability to work. I have a line in a poem that says something to the effect of "my body reminds the abled of their own disintergration." I think that's what I meant.
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  #98  
Old 02-28-2014, 05:37 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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Default I love this quote From Alison Kafer's book Feminist, Queer, Crip

The recent statements by British advice columnist Virginia ironside about the “suf- fering” of disabled children similarly require a challenge from disability and reproduc- tive rights supporters. in arguing for the right to abortion, ironside stated that know- ingly giving birth to a child with disabilities is cruel, and that in such cases abortion is the “moral and unselfish” response. she added that if she had a sick or disabled child, she would not hesitate to “put a pillow over its face,” as would “any loving mother.” Although ironside’s comments about infanticide have been rightly condemned, her assertion that abortion is the only proper response to disability has prompted little controversy, as has her assumption that advocacy for abortion rights requires accepting the construction of disability as unrelenting tragedy. As reproductive rights advocates who are committed to disability rights, we refuse to accept the rhetorical use of disability as an argument for abortion rights. reproductive rights demands not only access to abortion but also the right to have children, including children with disabilities, access to information about parenting, and the social and economic supports to parent all children with dignity.
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  #99  
Old 02-28-2014, 09:37 PM
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Re (from bofish):
Quote:
"KT -- I just though of one thing regarding 'becoming disabled.' I was on the bus today and I saw all the old people. I remembered most people *will* become disabled. They will lose hearing, sight, or may use a wheelchair or a cane. They may end up in diapers. They will lose their sexual attraction and ability to work. I have a line in a poem that says something to the effect of 'my body reminds the abled of their own disintergration.' I think that's what I meant."
Old age often brings disability which is something I've been pondering since my last post here. Thing is with that, people generally assume that they'll retire by the time those disabilities kick in. Doesn't always work out quite that way but the general idea is present in the public mindset.

Some people probably dread retirement more than they do the loss of this or that ability. Just about everyone wants to feel like they are doing something useful and somehow contributing to the good of society. Many people end up returning to work (at least part-time) after they retire. Their workplace experience and tried/true dependability tend to be greatly valued and they are usually welcomed back.

All people have their strengths and weaknesses and any smart employer will be mindful of that.
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  #100  
Old 03-01-2014, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
What comes next - forcing women to give birth, as if their bodies are not their own, and their life choices are no longer theirs to make?
I don't think this is a "next" issue. It's already happened and continues to happen off and on.

Otherwise-I totally agree with you!
People focus far too much time on the topic of abortion and far little time on the topic of abuse (in all of its forms).
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