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  #81  
Old 02-16-2014, 08:45 AM
london london is offline
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It's amusing when one doubts the objectivity of a believer but feels a non believer doesn't offer similar bias.
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  #82  
Old 02-16-2014, 12:50 PM
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How so? Are you saying you do this?
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  #83  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:07 PM
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Loving this topic - thanks, Mags, for all the interesting pointers toward books and the history behind it all.

I've gone from being a questioning believer (protestant roots, belonged to a youth group with evangelical ties in college, but never really "drank the koolaid" - always thought that treating people with kindness mattered more than abstaining from alcohol or anything like that) to being more of an agnostic, although I wouldn't call myself a full-fledged one yet.

Over the last couple years, I've realized that the deification of Jesus seems to have completely obscured his message, and seems to have turned much of modern-day Christianity (well, the evangelical stripes for sure) into the rule-based Pharisees Jesus railed against in the first place. Lip service is paid to "treat people well" but really, it becomes "if you don't believe, you're going to HELL" in the long run ("By faith alone are you saved"). Bah. I'll find out in the end, I suppose.

Anyhoo... I'm really enjoying the academics of this thread. I saved off some of the books you mentioned, Mags, and if I can find it in all these open tabs, I popped open one of those links as well. A little light Sunday morning reading.
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  #84  
Old 02-16-2014, 02:32 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Glad you like the topic, YouAreHere. I find it so fascinating, digging into the actual history of the Bible and the people who wrote it. As far as it relates to the topic of whether Yahweh or Jesus or the Spirit approve of polyamory.... well, rather than cherry pick a couple verses about marriage and relationships, I prefer to consider the source-- what was going on historically then? What were people's needs and issues? Israel was basically an occupied war zone for thousands of years, stuck between huge reigning empires: Egypt and Babylon, Persia and Greece, finally Rome. Then even the Roman Empire fell. So, how does what happened to the Biblical authors and early "Church Fathers" relate to us, now, in the 21st century with our space exploration, jet planes, computers and smart phones and electric cars?

IMO, there is not much left in common except for basic physical needs like food and air and water, and need for human touch, and love.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

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  #85  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:25 PM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Glad you like the topic, YouAreHere. I find it so fascinating, digging into the actual history of the Bible and the people who wrote it. As far as it relates to the topic of whether Yahweh or Jesus or the Spirit approve of polyamory.... well, rather than cherry pick a couple verses about marriage and relationships, I prefer to consider the source-- what was going on historically then? What were people's needs and issues? Israel was basically an occupied war zone for thousands of years, stuck between huge reigning empires: Egypt and Babylon, Persia and Greece, finally Rome. Then even the Roman Empire fell. So, how does what happened to the Biblical authors and early "Church Fathers" relate to us, now, in the 21st century with our space exploration, jet planes, computers and smart phones and electric cars?

IMO, there is not much left in common except for basic physical needs like food and air and water, and need for human touch, and love.
And I think the invention of protected sex is a huge game changer as well. It's easier to see why premarital sex and sex outside your marriage would be things society wouldn't want happening at the time.
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  #86  
Old 02-16-2014, 03:49 PM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
It's amusing when one doubts the objectivity of a believer but feels a non believer doesn't offer similar bias.
Anyone who thinks they don't have biases has never studied psychology. EVERYONE is biased. EVERYONE has a personal agenda. At least that's the belief I am biased towards. :-)
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  #87  
Old 02-16-2014, 04:17 PM
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And I think the invention of protected sex is a huge game changer as well. It's easier to see why premarital sex and sex outside your marriage would be things society wouldn't want happening at the time.
Well, yes, as regards male power and passing down personal wealth to only your biological offspring/sons. As I said earlier, prior to patriarchal rule, which had barely begun to take hold in OT days, there was more sexual freedom for women since their children were considered to be her tribe's children, not her husband's property.
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  #88  
Old 02-16-2014, 05:01 PM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Well, yes, as regards male power and passing down personal wealth to only your biological offspring/sons. As I said earlier, prior to patriarchal rule, which had barely begun to take hold in OT days, there was more sexual freedom for women since their children were considered to be her tribe's children, not her husband's property.
Also the very real threat of overpopulation destroying our planet makes the Biblical commandment "Be fruitful and multiply" completely obsolete. In my opinion, large families are doing a disservice to society unless some of those children were adopted like in my family growing up.
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  #89  
Old 02-16-2014, 08:31 PM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is online now
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Originally Posted by london View Post
It's amusing when one doubts the objectivity of a believer but feels a non believer doesn't offer similar bias.
Curious if you are lumping agnostics and atheists together in the "non believer" category. From my standpoint atheists also "believe" something... they have "faith" in that they are convinced that God/dess does NOT exist.

I'm a "little a" agnostic. Big A agnostics (in my mind) don't know whether there is a higher being...and feel that that knowledge is, inherently, un-knowable. For myself, I don't know that that is true.

I, personally, don't know whether there is any sort of higher power...and don't know if that is "knowable" or not...and ultimately don't care - because it wouldn't change my life in any significant way whether there was or was not. I have never seen any evidence of a higher power personally...and it wouldn't offend me me if one (or more) existed.

If I had to subscribe to a doctrine - I'd pick "secular Buddhism". I think that the world would be a better place if everyone just tried to be the BEST person they can. So ...? I try, I fail sometimes, I forgive myself, I try again. I am responsible for MY decisions and their consequences...so I try to make the best decisions that I can with the limited information that I have at the time.

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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Ultimately? All is One. But then we really have nothing to talk about, reducing it to that. If all is one, there is no gender, there is no individuality, we wouldn't be having any trouble trying to be poly.
Yes. It is what it is. Which is why I love having religious conversations but have no vested interest in the outcomes of such discussions - I'm just really interested in how other peoples' minds work.


What if existence works however I, personally, think it works? What if I am the only true soul in the universe? Makes no difference. The answer is STILL to be the best person that I can figure out how to be. If I am responsible for every evil on the planet...then I am also responsible for every joy...

(As an aside, if I could design the system...you would spend all of eternity reliving your life from the perspective of every person you had affected by your actions - good OR bad, knowingly or NOT - that seems "fair" to me...suffering as much as the victims of your choices and enjoying every ecstasy from the perspective of the enjoyer.)
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MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS (1+ years)
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


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The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 02-16-2014 at 08:33 PM. Reason: removal of errant code
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  #90  
Old 02-17-2014, 12:12 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
Curious if you are lumping agnostics and atheists together in the "non believer" category. From my standpoint atheists also "believe" something... they have "faith" in that they are convinced that God/dess does NOT exist.
Actually I have done away with belief, faith and hope in my life. I find them useless concepts.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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