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  #21  
Old 04-04-2010, 11:46 PM
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GS-you rock.

You know I love you (both) right?!

Ok, I'll go hit hte quote button so that I can elaborate more appropriately.
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  #22  
Old 04-05-2010, 01:04 AM
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LR, I'm really empathizing with you right now. Tech and I have only been together a little over three years but I feel as you've said as well.
Ourquad-I'm sorry to hear that you feel the same way-becuase I wouldn't wish the feeling of not being as important to someone as they are to you-on anyone. I'm also thankful, since you do feel as I've decribed, that you've said so, because it does ease some of the severity of pain to know I'm not alone.
Quote:
And truthfully his answers may decide exactly what I do. If a secondary was all he could be to me, he should not have encourage me in making it more. I would have loved him still, but definitely done some things differently.
Ourquad-I quoted this part to Maca last night. It's so very true. I think the key difference HERE is that GG hasn't bothered to educate himself on WHAT it is he ACTUALLY wants. He SAID all of the right things to quote Maca, but (and I say this in deep sincerity as I know it's one of GG's less stellar habits) he never actually put the time and effort into learning what that really means to DO that.
I should have considered that detail. I KNEW he was bad about not digging into the deeper details, that he tends to overlook the finite details and distinctions in life. I knew that he has a tendency to follow and not make a stand for any one thing (including me over the years) on his own.
I SHOULD have considered the distinct possibility that even though I found Polyamory, and I figured out through MUCH searching that it was who I am. Even though I took the time to research it for myself AND THEN TOOK THE TIME TO FIND THE MOST PERTINENT DETAILS AND EMAIL THEM TO BOTH MACA AND GG because I knew that it would be less time consuming for them that way then it was for me, even though I KNEW it was critical that we ALL educate ourselves FULLY on what it means to be polyamorous as well as to be certain we were covering the details of each of our individual needs (not just my own) AND our 3 separate 2/person relationship needs AND the relationship between all three of us. EVEN THOUGH I not only told them both about the board and invited them to join and even though I took the time to email them links to posts/threads that were PERSONALLY pertinent to us and specifically commented in those emails as to how they pertained to how I feel, what I need, what I expect, believe etc...
I also knew he didn't read all of the emails, didn't research polyamory (or D/s as noted in a prior "problem thread of mine) and didn't make time to read the board or get to know the people who I was talking about having meaning to me... As I told Maca this afternoon-I knew the level of commitment I was asking Maca to accept as being allowed between GG and I, wasn't THERE.
I SHOULD have put that information together, but I didn't.

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I had major issues with my blood pressure this past weekend (which postponed our talks) and both of them were there.
Subtle I can see (that is so my sister). But you have to be there to BE THERE. More on that later.

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Ask GG flat out. It's a bit scary, I know. You may not get the answer you would like. I'm prepared for that myself.
In a way I guess it's scary-but I asked the scariest question and I got the most possible heartbreaking answer I could imagine. One of my strengths is always being able to accept the true answer, even if it's not what I want to hear. It hurt-and I don't know what it's going to mean in terms of impacting our situation. I do know I DID make that covenant in my love for GG, and I don't break my covenants. I also know now that he did not make that depth of covenant in his love for me. How our lives will change in light of that, I'm not sure. There WILL be changes. I won't stop loving him and I won't leave (or kick him out) but things will change, they have to.
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But because you are depressed, I would like to suggest you not make a major decision at this time. Hear things GG has to say but think on them for a long enough time that you'll be able to discern if your reaction is clouded by depression or not.
Thank you. You sound so much like me. I say that so often to people. I am not one to make rash decisions. I don't intend to make any decisions right now. One must first fully feel their heartache and reach the point where they can accept it as part of them before they move on-and I will.

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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
All I can pass along is a hug LR. Reading your response(s) I can see you are in pain. I hope it all works out. I would play devils advocate, as I tend to do, but in all honesty you don't need that ...I wish you the best with your healing and I really hope GG figures out what...well figures stuff out.
Ariakas, you are a wonder. I can't believe that you wrote this. It brought tears to my eyes when I read it again today. So very thoughtful, so compassionate, so loving. SUCH deep ability to express loving action to another from a man who claims that he has difficulty doing so. I know your story-we've talked, I want you to know-there MUST be great wonders in store for you, because your heart shines through the internet, so many people's hearts don't shine through in real life! TY, xo.

Quote:
Just curious, could you have slightly misinterpreted what was said. I have never known anyone to say their loves are not best friends. However, if you were best friends and moved to lovers the dynamic changes, you can never JUST be a best friend again.
YES Ariakas! YES. My sister, she's not biologically my sister. She was my best friend first. She and I say that one day we decided to "promote" one another. Now (and for many years now) we have proclaimed one another as sisters. With that proclamation we have responsibilities. Those responsibilities are IN ADDITION to the responsibilities one has to a best friend....

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For example, my wife is my best friend...my wife is my lover. I have responsibilities to both of those dynamics that are very fluid.
YES YES YES YES YES!!! Not one or the other, she holds both roles in your life, in your heart-so you (and she) hold both sets of responsibilities, not one or the other..

Quote:
Hope that made sense.
It made perfect sense to me, but that wasn't really the issue. BUT I THANK YOU for expressing it. At least I know I'm not the only one who see's this, and I if I am crazy for thinking it-there are other "crazies" out there as well!

Quote:
Wow...ya, I can't verbalize the difference either. Sorry I can't even really "tell" the difference, but I can compare how I am with my best friend A and my ex-lover and best friend E. The differences are small but important. I will have to think about this to figure out what the difference is...
And so, here we are. As bolded, underlined and re-colored, I need those small differences if I am to take someone as a primary....

Quote:
Some of you are right in thinking that I've been trying to allow for Maca to be there for LR. But, being in this poly relationship, I need to realize that I am just as important to LR as Maca is.
No-this is incorrect. SOME poly relationships are NOT equal. Being a PRIMARY to me means that you have equal responsibility (and privileges) as Maca in relationship with me. BUT if you don't choose to take the responsibilities, you can't remain a primary-and as noted later, either you have it or you don't. Either your depth of emotion for me and commitment to me is PRIMARY or it's not.
Quote:
I have this real issue with worrying that I'll step on his toes. All the years they've been together, I've been the only one that supported them in their marriage all the time.
Did you forget ALL THE YEARS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP when the word poly got brought up? Or was it when the word marriage got brought up? Have you spent 17 years freaking ignoring what I say? Have you never heard and NOTED how often I've screamed, yelled, fought, etc for OUR relationship????
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Last edited by NeonKaos; 04-05-2010 at 12:07 PM. Reason: quote formatting
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  #23  
Old 04-05-2010, 01:05 AM
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Never once did I ever try to manipulate my way into a relationship with LR, never once did I try to make Maca leave, never once did I try to replace him.
Great, nor did you do any of those things in your relationship with your OTHER best friend. But as I said to you yesterday-if you suggested to his wife that his level of commitment/responsibility to YOU should be the same as to HER because you and he are best friends-that little firecracker would DEFINITELY slap you and likely kick your ass. You are TOTALLY missing the part where people who are "in love" and "romantic" and "best friends" and "committed for life" owe each other some amount MORE of some indefinable aspect of themselves than those who are JUST "best friends". I guarantee that HE does NOT put you on equal status as HIS WIFE. So why would you think that I would be content with you putting me on equal status as HIM?
He's AWESOME. I appreciate him greatly. I FOUGHT for you to rebuild that friendship GG!! HE wouldn't even BE IN YOUR LIFE were it not for me AND MY DEVOTION TO YOU EVEN IF YOU DON'T NEED OR ASK FOR ME/MY HELP...... Because of my covenant to be all I can be for/to you, I fight for what you need and what is best for you EVEN IF YOU DON'T ASK ME TO and in fact ESPECIALLY if you don't ask me to..... because IT IS MY JOB as your SIGNIFICANT other....
Quote:
Maca gets frustrated with me bacause I don't "act" like a boyfriend. And I argue with him saying that It's difficult to be a boyfriend of someone who has a husband.
Interestingly I think I get this INTELLECTUALLY-because it's much what Mono says and I've been studying Mono's posts for 6 months.
But personally-I don't understand it at all. If my child was dying in the hospital, and Maca were there, I would not be "needed", he can do all the things for them that I can. BUT I WOULD BE THERE because his presence is about THEIR relationship and HIS responsibility to the covenant of fatherhood he made. MY presence is about OUR relationship and MY responsibility to the covenant of motherhood I made.
Likewise-It is NOT hard for me AT ALL to imagine upholding my responsibilities to you if you also had a wife-because HER responsibilities to you due to HER covenant to you is NOT PERTINENT to mine and does NOT negate mine in any way....
Quote:
...Finally today, LR asks me what I think the difference is between a "best friend" and a "significant other". And I never really even thought of compareing the two that way. Reason being, they are one in the same to me. Only S/O's have a romantic part of their relationship.
All privileges come with a responsibility. As I said before, the romantic part is the privilege of a S/O. What is the responsibility GG?

Quote:
Tonoght I was making comparisons to my other best friend Getsueh. What is the difference between my relationship with LR and my relationship with Getsueh? And other than the romantic end of it, and the fact that LR/ I are in love with each other, and Getsueh and I are NOT, though we do HAVE love for each other, there isn't any difference. Not to me.
This is the reason I can't have a primary relationship with you. I tried, but it's not POSSIBLE for me to have a primary relationship with someone who doesn't differentiate between a primary and their best friend. I can't and I won't pretend I can.

Quote:
I would die for both of them. I trust both of them. I do what I can for both of them. I'm friends with both of them. I support both of them. I give my time to both of them. They in turn have done so for me. But she is the one I care more deeply for. If they were hanging over a cliff and I had to let one of them fall, it would be Getsueh because I'm not in love with him. (And I know he'd expect me to do that)...
People use that stupid cliff comparison all of the time. But I AM HANGING OFF THE GOD DAMN CLIFF GG and ironically I'm hanging alone-but you ARE NOT choosing to pull me up, even though you don't have to let him fall in order to do so.
BECAUSE you don't feel like it's your place.... WHAT?!?!?!?!??!
You don't feel like it's your PLACE?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Do you SEE the issue here?
Quote:
I know that she's going through a hell of a time during her recovery. And she also knows that I am willing to be here for her 24/7 if she needs me to be.
HUH?! IF?!?!
IF is what sticks in my craw. Go back and re-read the section about "if" my child were dying in the hospital... would I go IF they needed me to? No. I would go BECAUSE IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. BECAUSE I made a covenant to be their parents it is now my RESPONSIBILITY to be there WHETHER OR NOT I AM "NEEDED".

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I just have other people that I care about that I want to visit sometimes. I'm not gone for more than a day when I do.
WTF does this have to do with this topic? No, don't answer. IT DOES NOT PERTAIN. I too have other people I care about that I want to visit sometimes. In fact I want to go MEET two people I have come to care about for 10 days in August! WHAT does that have to do with this topic? Nothing. Nothing at all.
Additionally, unlike you, I DO have ANOTHER person who I am ALREADY in a covenant with as a PRIMARY SIGNIFICANT OTHER. Try that on for size. You are struggling to be willing to make that level of commitment to ONE person.

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Maybe she wants to know that I prioritize her more than my other best friend.

WANT? WANT? M'ebe, you are so fucking lost at this point I don't even know what to SAY.

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I love her SO MUCH. And this is killing me! I would do ANYTHING to make her happy.
That is a DANGEROUS and STUPID road to travel. It's not about what I "want"; it's about doing what is RIGHT. If you spend all of your time trying to do what I "want" you will fail. Because what I want is to follow the path I belong on and you can't create THAT.



Quote:
But I wonder if, because she's depressed (as one of you pointed out) she might not be realizing that I'm here too.
That isn't the issue. It was a good guess on Ourquad's part but she's not here and you should know better. I DO know the "subtle" things you (and Em) do. That isn't the issue at all.
Quote:
I didn't know she was having this issue with me until yesterday. I thought it was because of her medication, and her frustration at being restricted. I've tried talking to her and I had no idea that there was this hidden issue.
It wasn't hidden. It's just that you aren't in anyway motivated to DO the job of a primary significant other.

Quote:
I should have stayed because it was the "right thing to do". Because even if she was fine enough FOR me to not have ot be here, and YOU were here with her to take care of her, I should have been here for at the very least, support.
Wrong. IF you want the relationship of a primary significant other then you should do the job off one. If you don't then there is nothing wrong with not doing that job.

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I should stay because I love her and I know it would make her happy if I did.
Wrong again. It's not about making me happy. Re-read above as many times as necessary.
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It's really all in our mind and heart. When our love & concern for someone becomes deep enough they just "become" a priority. We no longer even think about it or analyze it. We just act - based on that inner instinct and connection of what is needed. What's the best that we can do.
This.
It's not about who ELSE might also be doing it-we just can't stop ourselves, we MUST do it. Something within us drives us to.
Quote:
It definitely IS a different way of thinking & living. The examples Maca used were great. If you think about what your reaction would be if it was your child (in some cases) then you know how to act - without even thinking. There really are no options.
Oh you people! Bring tears to my eyes. There really are no options. You just HAVE to-it's like HAVING to pee, at a certain point it doesn't matter if you are at the potty or not-you HAVE to go.
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So although I agree (and speak similarly often) that a deep, best, friendship contains MOST of the qualities that make for a successful love relationship and kind of form a minimum specification, there still remains that small, subtle and critical difference.
Yes. Yes. Yes.

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When it comes to those we love - thoughts of others simply don't enter the thought process at all - let alone any discussion. We simply don't care ! We know what we NEED to do - and we just do it. Nothing else matters.
Wish I could type this out in the sky!

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Maybe this is a breakthrough ? I see the seeds........
I pray you are right GS.
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Old 04-05-2010, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
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Maybe this is a breakthrough ? I see the seeds........
I pray you are right GS.
I definitely see seeds. On paper (or web) some things are easier to convey. I see what you posting as being concise and accurate to what you want AND to how you interpret what GG has posted. You could easily make point form notes and break down the differences. You may find it is something as simple as miscommunication (different from a lack of communication) or something as complex as requiring role change (very difficult I know)...

I sent you a pm with some other stuff too ...best of luck LR and to answer your question...my arms are very long and very strong ...
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
LR and to answer your question...my arms are very long and very strong ...
That my friend is magnificent!!
Hopefully when I can put mine up again you will find that mine are long enough for you to feel the return hugs!
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:08 PM
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Wow, it took me an hour to read through this and now I have no time to write because I'm picking up my tersiary, Dex.

Couple of notes that could be expanded, I am in the habit of telling people exactly what I want them to say and do. Its up to them to do it if they want to be there for me. I'm talking about my men and others that have become close to me. I see no harm in telling people what makes my heart sing and how they can love me better. They will see the benefit of loving me the way I want, cause I return that love how they want.

I also suggest having a look at "the five love languages" if you haven't already because you haven't mentioned once how GG might need to be loved in all this. After all, he needs love too and it might just be that you are different. What you value LR and Maca and what he values might be different. I don't think that the "punishement (because it sure sounds kinda like one)" of "you don't get to be primary" because you aren't doing it "my" way is not necessarily fair. The thing that sticks out for me is that he might not want that kind of primary role and that needs to be worked out.
I hear what you are saying LR. You are fed up. Completely, but listen to who ever it was who said to not decide anything now. Its only been since September! No rush, it will sort out with time.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:16 AM
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I just wanted to add that I heard what you said
LR about GG not saying what he would like to participate in and being blase. I think it might be a good time to sit and work that out again (these things come up over and over again don't they!).

It seems GG is not one to take the upper hand and if not then some way of working in the group dynamic you have set up seems to be needed. Perhaps looking at group dynamics and studying what peoples roles tend to be in a group setting would be useful. Everyone does best in a certain role or roles, finding GGs role seems to be important and then relying on him to fulfill that role. It might mean someone else has to give him reponsibilities that they once did themselves and then relying on him to do them.

GG, that would mean you have to live by your word and do as you say you will do. Not make hollow promises that sound good but that you don't keep. Not that you would do that intentionally, but it would be extremely important to keep your word at that point. That would mean making sure you think very deeply about what you can do and not take on too much to start with just to prove your worth. Baby steps are better than breaking your promise to take care of the things you say you will.

I'm sorry if this is choppy and to the point. I can't seem to find a way to sugar coat what I am wanting to say these days. I hope I don't come across as rude or all knowing. That isn't my intent. I think you have known me long enough to know that I have your best interest at heart and care about you all. I have invested in our friendship and when I invest I say things as I see them because I care, not because I am being a bitch. I hope you know that too... I know others reading what I write think differently, but you will take what you need from everyone, I'm sure of that and what purpose would it serve to say everything everyone else has already, even if I agree with a lot of it.

Lots of love, you know where to find me if you need to talk more.
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Old 04-07-2010, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
GG, that would mean you have to live by your word and do as you say you will do. Not make hollow promises that sound good but that you don't keep. Not that you would do that intentionally, but it would be extremely important to keep your word at that point. That would mean making sure you think very deeply about what you can do and not take on too much to start with just to prove your worth. Baby steps are better than breaking your promise to take care of the things you say you will.
Thank you for your thoughts RP. I think one of the problems I have is that I fully mean well, and intend to, do something for someone, be it act a certian way, remember something important, take care of something in particular, etc, and it's not that I'm just saying it to "please" them. But what I don't do is make that particular thing important to ME. See, I want to do for others, but somehow I'm having an issue not putting myself in their shoes. In this instance, LR. But it works this way with other people as well.

I have trouble with following through. I say that I will "make sure this bag of clothes leaves the house today", but I really don't care about it myself, and so I "forget" or procrastinate and then it builds up into this huge issue.

Or LR says "I need you to take care of me" and I say I will and mean it in that instance, but after a few days, life happens and I "forget", OR I just don't think through all my actions. Like the concert. I didn't make it important to me to be sure that LR was doing okay enough for me to break away for the weekend. I actually would have had no issue with staying home that weekend and "taking care of her". But because I made an ass between you and me, because Maca was here and she seemed to be doing very well (considering) physically I didn't think she'd need me around right then. And it surprised me, not only because I thought (without thinking) that it would be fine, but I wasn't just going because I wanted to go. I was going because I felt obligated to my other best friend who bought the non-refundable ticket FOR me as a b-day gift.

But I didn't for one moment think through her wanting me around, and if LR was really as important to me as I claim and as I assured her, I wouldn't have even thought to leave. I would've cancelled it the day I found out when the surgery was scheduled for. But I didn't.
And even this coming weekend, I'm debating (or was) whether or not to go out again. But... instead of thinking thuroughly through, I'm assuming again and I'm NOT making her the priority I say she is.

I do love her very much, but something is flawed in the way I think, or don't think rather. I recall Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. "There are no perfect people, only perfect intentions". And that's all fine and well. But that doesn't stop people from hurting others, how ever unintentional. It doesn't allow for dropping the ball, or breaking trust.

And sure, we all make mistakes, but consequences don't give a flying fuck about intentions OR mistakes. And I don't want ANYONE to trust me to not follow through, or drop the ball, or break promises, or talk bullshit. That is no friend, of any kind, at all. But... they do. And that is something I intend to change.

I do love LR with all my heart. I wouldn't be here now if it weren't for her and everything she does and everything she is. But to love her, truly, is to know her. And I DO know her, but I'm not choosing to remember that when it's down to the wire. And I can imagine how that must feel. They're right, I shouldn't v to be "told", I should just know,and act accordingly.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:17 PM
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GG, I have to pick your brain a bit if you don't mind. You see it feels like you and my fiance have similar issues going on and the lack of follow through is hard for me to understand. I've always been a person who puts others first. I always follow through. I can't help but... Be there. My Fiance struggles with following through and he has explained it just as you have. That he means it when he says he will do A, but in turn he did B because he THOUGHT it would be fine. He ASSUMED that since I had or did *insert anything here* that it would be fine for B to happen even though he agreed, even promised that he would do A. I really wish he could tell me the whys of it. It hurts me terribley that he struggles to keep his word. It makes me feel like I'm only important to him when it suits him and that he does indeed "forget" the place that he appointed me to in his life. It's such a blow to my... Being when he does this. Is it a lack of motivation? Insecurities that get the best of you? Better to not try at all than to fail at what I said I would do? Selfishness? I just think if maybe I could understand it that would give me some type of peace of mind.

He also wants me to be able to believe that he will do the things he says, but from the biggest to the smallest I do not believe. It's hard to believe. To put faith in someone you really do depend on in life and have them drop you on your ass in the biggest of ways and the smallest of ways. After a while it doesn't matter is it's big or small. It's all BIG. That bag of clothes as an example FUCKING hurts, because why must you make me repeat it so many times. I know you could care less about the bag. I GET THAT. BUT, it is important to ME and yes I could move it, or I could get MACA (lol sorry LR for speaking as you. Maybe GG and I both can learn something out of this) to take it out, but I NEED to know that I can depend on you too. Yes, you're right the bag of clothes isn't important at all, it's my DESIRE for that damn bag to get out of our nice family room that means so much to me. That DESIRE should be ENOUGH. But... It's not. Why?

I see alot of my fiance in you and I so know the heartbreak LR feels over it. My fiance struggles in truly connecting and GETTING IT when we try to talk through our issues, but there's rarely resolution that sticks. Either we are speaking two different languages (ie he is "hearing" what I'm saying but it's not sinking deep down into his heart) or he makes wonderful words and then "forgets" them. It's so painful to KNOW someone LOVES you, but the feeling in your bones says they don't care enough to love you the way you need to be loved. It hurts to know I can talk until I'm blue in the face and I can even be naive enough to believe this mans words because I love him so much I want to believe that THIS time will be the time when his words are more than just words. It's hard keep picking yourself up off the ground and climbing back into the arma of the one that keeps letting you hit the ground... And yet we want to believe so badly because we love you so damn much. X(

I just wish I could crawl inside his mind to understand because I don't get where the struggle comes from. I don't want to be angry, hurt, bitter, ect. I just want to understand why this is happening because I don't believe you can fix a problem without knowing the cause...

PS. LR I totally get why you are thinking about moving GG to a secondary. You've been trying to get the things you need from him, right? You've talked until you're blue in the face right? And you love him enough to realize that if he can't provide what you need from him that you have to make peace with it and this is your way of doing it? After so many talks it feels like he's not capable so then it falls upon you to change what you need of him to what he is capable of, but at the same time it hurts to give all that you do and not get a fraction in return. So as a way to try and make this broken situation healthy for the both of you, you're trying to lessen expectations for both of you to gain some peace and ease between not only the two of you, but for you whole family. This is how I see it. Not a punishment... An I've tried all there is to try, it's not working so we need to change it so it does work.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 04-07-2010 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:28 PM
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Ilove2men,

Yes,

I haven't had a chance yet to reply to RP (RP, I love you!).

I just read the whole page.
I only have a second, this is my couple hours to spend with GG and as you can all see, we do have some things to deal with that require my attention.

Yes, I do love him, no I'm not in any way trying to punish him. What i see is this, he can't (at least for now) meet my expectations for a primary. That could change and if it does I am MORE than willing to put the roles back.

But I love him. I can't just "let him go". At the same time, I can't handle the repeated disappointment and hurt, and it's not fair for the family to deal with the drama.
My expectations of a secondary are different, the privileges are different also, but the expectations are different. They are expectations he's dealt with for damn near to 17 years with no problem.
He's not upholding what even he would want from a primary.... so I'm actually changing it for HIS benefit. Because if things go as they have been, Maca will put his foot down and he will have to move out. THAT would take SO much more away from him (and I as well) than this will.
Also-this way gives him TIME to work on figuring out IF he really wants and can provide what a primary role would entail. All of the time he needs-without a battle, without a drama, without all of those consequences that could potentially destroy what we DO have.



As for talking for me, that was DEAD on-so no harm, no foul.



More later when I have some time to myself.
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