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  #11  
Old 12-27-2013, 10:52 PM
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It seems hopeful to me.

I'm less than euphoric about the LDS church's recent retraction of its old racist doctrines. It was less a retraction than a denial, and it came conveniently on the heels of Nelson Mandela's death. Still it's a step in the right direction. At least the church won't be able to spew so much racist crap in the future, now that they've set this new precedent.

I'm not thrilled about Francis' failure to speak out against the molestations of children by priests. It seems like he's spoke out against every kind of child abuse (especially child labor and sex slavery) except the abuse spawned by his own Church. His failings were similar when he was a cardinal and I suspect that he was hand-picked for his current office in part for that very reason. The Catholic Church may be ready to loosen its grip on some things, but not on its denial about its most grevious sin in these modern times.

I think socialism has been shown to be able to be carried out successfully, under the right circumstances, by a goodly number of European countries. It shouldn't be something that Americans quake and tremble over, but lots of older folks at least are living in the past where the Cold War was at its height and witch-hunts against communist "spies" were the featured paranoia of the day. When a conservative American hears the word "socialist," I think his/her mind translates it as "commie," with all the fearmongering that entails. Luckily I am not afraid of socialism, so I don't have to try to defend the opposing viewpoint.

But as Dana indicated, the Catholic Church is made less out of clay and more out of cement. It's brittle. Too much change in one sitting would end with the Church cracking and falling to pieces -- not necessarily a bad thing, but something that no entrenched Catholic would want to cause. To become Pope, one must be very loyal to the Church and its survival no matter what one's personal views. So I think it's fortuitous that the higher-ups chose a Pope who'd at least talk a milder talk, even if he's not ready to walk a milder walk. I don't think Francis has fixed the biggest problems by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm happy that he's beginning to point the Church in a direction that no other Pope ever did (not for all but 2000 years at least).

I'll have one eye on the Catholic Church going forward, I'll put it that way.
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Old 12-28-2013, 02:44 AM
CattivaGattina CattivaGattina is offline
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I know he's done some stuff regarding the child abuse in the Catholic Church. It's a more recent thing (earlier this month) and he has a committee working on ways to stop it, how to track down all the priests who have done these actions to actually remove them, and provide assistance to the victims.
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2013, 03:36 AM
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Wow, that's good news. I hope he follows through and that we'll begin to hear more about that.
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Old 12-28-2013, 02:01 PM
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The Pope has made child abuse/ molestation illegal in the Vatican, where before there was no specific laws that they could hold and punish priests by, as the Vatican is basically a country of it's own. Now offending priests can get shipped to the vatican for investigation and actually punished.
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Old 12-28-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CattivaGattina View Post
I know he's done some stuff regarding the child abuse in the Catholic Church. It's a more recent thing (earlier this month) and he has a committee working on ways to stop it, how to track down all the priests who have done these actions to actually remove them, and provide assistance to the victims.
Link?
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  #16  
Old 12-30-2013, 03:13 AM
CattivaGattina CattivaGattina is offline
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http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...al-reform?lite

And because having 2 is better than one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4390452.html
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  #17  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:01 PM
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Thanks for the link! I see he's just made it a crime to sexually abuse a minor, or hire a child prostitute, in Vatican City. (It wasn't before?)

Quote:
The Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests (SNAP) was unimpressed, saying his initiative might burnish the Vatican's image but "in the real world this changes virtually nothing (as it affects only) the 0.2 square miles of Vatican property."

SNAP urged the Church hierarchy to focus on having its personnel abide by long-established secular laws on sexual abuse and rooting out bishops who failed to protect children.
So, no plans to punish bishops involved in the cover-ups.
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  #18  
Old 12-30-2013, 04:06 PM
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Default The Pope on gay adoption

And this today.... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4516304.html
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  #19  
Old 12-30-2013, 04:27 PM
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Let's just admit the Church was a convenient refuge for gay men and lesbians (and pedophiles/ephebophiles, which is different) for 1600 years, shall we?

One more hypocrisy of Christianity.

The Bible is a 2000 year old book of magic, for goodness sakes. The so-called Church Fathers and Saints wrote a bunch of bs according to modes of thought of ancient Rome, and the freeking Middle Ages.

Grow up and get over it!
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  #20  
Old 12-31-2013, 06:13 AM
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Well I finally got the conservative guy to bite.

---

From: Conservative
To: kdt26417, Astronomer
Cc: the Rest of the Gang
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013
Subject: Papal Influence

[In kdt26417's words:] Conservative pretty much dismissed the Pope with a wave of his hand. After all, he said, the Pope is just some puny guy propping up a flimsy, dying church. Yusuf al-Qaradawi has much more power and influence. The Catholic Church is eroding into an insignificant status for rank-and-file Westerners.

Atheist socialism is no paradise. Remember the 20th century? Americans clearly don't remember that. They don't care about logic and clarity, just about political correctness. Therefore, the Pope's agenda is uninteresting to Conservative. But for argument's sake let's say the Catholic Church is true. Then why isn't the Pope standing up for traditional family values and worship of the Virgin Mary? Sounds like he just wants to serve the elite narcissists who enjoy free reign in America.

Vladimir Putin is much more interesting. You might be interested in reading his New Year's letter.

---

The letter Conservative spoke of (linked to above) is a scathing indictment against America for tip-toe-ing around liberal mogels, allowing, for instance, the courts to defy the will of the people and allow same-sex marriage. Knowing Conservative as I do, I know that he's passive-aggressive and would never speak out with such cutting words as Putin did. But the fact that he referenced the New Year's letter says it all. I am convinced that he was angered and offended by my Pope plugging, and aiming a stinging hard-line conservative letter at me was his bit of divine justice. Those who desire to have their feathers ruffled should definitely click on the above link.

But since Conservative took the time to respond to my email, I thought some sucking up was in order. After all, I want him to see that participating in the discussion will earn him a reward. (Damn I'm cynical.) So ...

---

From: kdt26417
To: Conservative, Astronomer
Cc: the Rest of the Gang
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013

Hmmm, interesting ... I didn't realize Putin was a staunch conservative. A conservative with pizzazz, if I may say so. But I don't think Putin and Fracis are in any danger of chatting over tea anytime soon.

I think Putin has given voice to what every faithful conservative in America fears: that the growing foothold of liberal policy is going to suck out the backbone of this once-proud nation and leave it to the buzzards to pick dry.

As for Catholicism, I am not prepared to say that it has become a weak and insignificant force in the world. As Putin said, the quiet majority is conservative, and that surely includes conservative Catholics. But, I think that Catholicism's hold is beginning to slip, especially in terms of the youth who are not attending (and contributing) as much as their parents were. Thus, the Catholic Church is trying to scoop up the youth by championing what the Church believes the youth want. I think that has something to do with why Francis was elected to be the Pope.

I am actually glad that Putin is embracing the values of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Russia is rich in that kind of history, and suffered culturally without it when communist rulers bade the people worship the government rather than the Church. I think that Russia needs to experience a time of religious loyalty in order to recover from that repression. Who knows, maybe Eastern Orthodoxy will supplant Rome as the dictator of original Catholicism in the West. Should be quite a showdown.

I think socialism can work if it's accompanied by honest democracy. Even Putin might agree with that. The problem is, America is too much controlled by special interests. I myself can see that. The system is rigged.

I asked Lawyer [another member of the gang] what he thought of Mars mission prospects and he responded that he's in favor of it as long as America fixes its debt problem first. At the rate we are going, he predicts the collapse of our nation in about fifty years. Not a very good legacy to leave for our children. So I am inclined to agree that the national debt is the one thing rank-and-file liberals and conservatives alike tend to underestimate. We're all busy fighting over homosexuality while the government runs our collective credit cards through the roof. I don't know if Lawyer's prediction is right, but maybe I'm kind of glad that I probably won't live longer than fifty more years. You see, there's my selfishness coming out ...

Well Conservative, I appreciate your posting your thoughts and I know I goaded you, which is why I consider it fair enough to receive a sophisticated taunt by Putin in return. I was just surprised that the current Pope is as liberal-minded as he seems to be. The fly in the ointment seems to be his failure to address the molestation of children by priests. But rumor has it that he's finally starting to address that issue. I hope it's true. Conservatives and liberals alike will agree that such sexual abuse is a terrible and onerous thing. It needs to be stopped and corrected with a strong hand.

I am interested to hear what any of you other guys would like to say, if you get time and opportunity to say it.

Regards,
Kevin T.

---

Didn't the prior Pope resign? If so, perhaps that's another reason why Pope Francis was elected. A face-saving measure, if you will.

---

From: Programmer
To: kdt26417, Conservative, Astronomer
Cc: the Rest of the Gang
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013

[In kdt26417's words:] Programmer only touched briefly on the Pope, saying he didn't know a whole lot about that topic and that he agreed with me that trying to change too much too quickly in the Catholic Church would do more harm than good.

With that, Programmer then transitioned into another topic he wanted to discuss. Or topic cluster:
  • Should we be donating organs when the recipients suffer terrible side effects from the body's tendency to reject the implant? Conservative once said the answer is no.
  • What happens to survival of the fittest when we prop up the weak with organ implants, life extension, and other modern luxuries?
  • What of life extension itself, what about all the problems it (would) cause/s?
Since the above-listed questions are out of scope for this thread, I'll not delve further into what Programmer said unless it be requested by you guys, in which case I'll start a new thread on the subject.

---

As far as I know, that concludes the gang's Pope discussion. The guys have moved on to other topics, I think.
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