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  #81  
Old 12-19-2013, 12:41 AM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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I had an online chat with Kip this afternoon, threw out a hypothetical..
If 2 people are in an open relationship, they have full a disclosure agreement. One partner finds out the other is having other sex partners, is it cheating?
His answers ranged from no, it's an open relationship, to yes, if there is an agreement to disclose.
I asked if he we had a full disclosure agreement. He said yes.
I asked if he would expect me to tell him I have another sex partner, he said yes.
He asked if I had any other partners apart from Prof, I said no.
I asked if he had any other partners or sex encounters, he said no.

I am now entirely clear that I wasn't dreaming up a full disclosure agreement. Not that there was a real doubt anyway, but one wants to be sure. And also clear that he has no problem lying about his activities.

I feel ready to meet and let him lie to my face some more, then tell him I know everything, or at least as much as I read, and that was plenty.

I am done with him. I will maintain some chit chat till I see him again in person, I don't want this to be a phone talk.

On the good news side, ex has finally moved into his new place and will start taking the kids again. I am starting to feel like a shut-in.
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #82  
Old 12-21-2013, 04:48 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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I met Kip yesterday, he said he really wanted to meet before the vacation.
Evasive and avoidant. I eventually had to say that I saw his profile online and knew he was dating. He tried to say that he had told me a while back. Erm no. He said he is chatting, sending pics, talking on the phone but hasn't met anyone yet in person. Interesting to note he blinks a lot when he is lying. He maintained that there isn't really anything to say at this point. It was quite obvious that he had no intention of telling me any thing at any point. He was very clear that he wanted to know what I was doing, who I was seeing etc. that we had full disclosure etc. He tried to turn the OKC back on me, by saying I didn't tell him I was going back online and had said I was giving it a break for a while. I couldn't deny that, but the order had been reading his emails and then doing it. I didn't admit I had done that, read the emails, I am lying by omission too.

The upshot is, I still want to do the swap in January, it is condoms all round, and this will probably be my last foray into multiple sex. I want to check it off my fuckit list. Self-serving behavior all round.

Then enough. I don't need either of them in my life.

I don't regret the experience of having meet them and learning what I have about poly and open relationships. I have read a vast amount of both online info and opinion and books. Learning is usually good.

I am reassessing what I am looking for and asking for in future relationships. While one should never say never, I think I am highly unlikely to see anyone who...is married, has veto, has a 2 page list of relationship rules or lives with their parents/parents.

I am going to try some meet-up groups next year. My resolution is to work on talking to unfamiliar people in social settings. I might try a few poly meetings too.

Counseling is also on the list, but I am stuck until ex takes the kids regularly. That has been pushed out another week or so.

Internship class starts in 2 weeks. I have 1 year to finish the requirements, so that will keep me busy. I read the curriculum, it is extensive and time consuming, but very interesting. All good

And of course, I still have my 2 wonderful children, so excited to be spending Xmas Eve with them this year. We will be up at 6 opening presents and Skyping the family to share in it. They should be off to their Dad at around 10 am back at 6 ish. I plan to go and see the new Hobbit movie, all my friends are out of town so I will get a few hours to myself. Whoop Whoop
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Me: 40s female
Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.

Last edited by Atlantis; 12-21-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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  #83  
Old 12-24-2013, 03:57 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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I bumped into Prof yesterday, he was walking on the street, nice bit of coincidence as he had a bag of presents for me. He was planning to leave them on the doorstep as I was out and about and that saved him a trip.
He had already cancelled Wednesday by text as he will be out of town and said he hopes to see me sometime next week. Gives him more time to contact Me.2. He explicitly said he is looking for a kink partner and great sex.

I told Kip I was back on OKC, he was slightly miffed. Doesn't want my dating to take anytime away from him, he is my "priority". He is setting up a lunch date with Me.2, lots of naked pics and questions about sex.

Neither of them have actually asked Me.2 what is my name or what I do for a living, nothing that I have had to lie about. It is all about them, what they are looking for and what they have to offer, same things they promised me in the beginning.

The Me.2 experiment( not that it was meant to be) has been very eye opening. They are spinning the same lines that they gave me when we met. Available time, both have plenty, willingness to travel and have weekends away, understanding partners, drama free, Prof apparently has a few short rules, no mention of 2 pages or veto.

I am stopping the Me.2 correspondence, it was very stupid to do it in the first place, I am sinking to their level, but it has been an opportunity to see that I fell for the the lines and they are good at spinning them. It wasn't just me seeing and hearing what I thought I wanted to see and hear, they both presented themselves as much more available and honest than they actually are.

So 2 weeks or so till the 4 way. Kip has said he will pick up all of the hotel bill so I can have the room to myself afterwards. He wants me to have a nice treat. I had put together a list of possibilities and emailed it to him, so the king suite with balcony and view it is! I was touched at the gesture, despite the lying, he has always been very sweet and generous.

I still don't really understand the need for deceit, excitement and validation are my current guesses. Is it thrilling to think he is getting one, two, three over on me? Doesn't really matter at this point.

I have been reading the forums on communicating after boundary and rule breaks. One part of me thinks I should tell Kip that I know everything and re-set the rules to "Do what you like, share if you want," and we are back to condoms. I like a label, what would that be then, FBs? I still feel polyish. I want loving connections with my partners. I thought I had that. I was told I had that. Are my expectations of disclosure too demanding? Was it not my place to ask to be kept in the loop about their other sex partners? I keep coming back to; if they didn't want to tell me then they should have told me they didn't want to disclose, and let me decide if I wanted to be in FB type relationship. Could it be they would tell me anything just to keep the sex?????? Noooooooo, much sarcasm.
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #84  
Old 12-24-2013, 06:51 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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Taking a break from the raking leaves...
Talked to mum about what is going on. She surprised me by saying but it's an open relationship dear, you can't expect to know what is going on, just because you tell tell them, doesn't mean they need to tell you. You know neither of them is looking for a commitment and neither are you. So why are you surprised by this? I explained my shock at the lying , she didn't think it was lying more being economical with the truth.
Wow mum! Her and Dad are really so conservative, but continue to surprise me with accepting the whole open relationship/poly thing. I have always been the slightly odd one out of the kids, probably not much left I could shock them with. I might keep the kinky side quiet though
One of my other friends had the same opinion. She is 65 and has seen more than a few things in her time. She thought it was an open relationship and they a free to do whatever they like. as am I. Pretty much the same as mum, just cause I tell all doesn't mean they have to. Why would I be surprised they are dating and not telling me, direct questioning or not.
I thought both of them would say dump the gits.
Friend M was more; use condoms and go with it until it doesn't work for you anymore. Apart from this hiccough, they both both have been quiet good partners.
Mum was; continue until something better comes along. MUM!!!!!!!!! or break it off if you feel you need to.
I was expecting a bit more commiserating and man bashing. They both pointed out that I am not looking for a full-time boyfriend type situation and tend to go a running when one presents itself. So quit complaining!
More food for thought...
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #85  
Old 12-26-2013, 12:03 AM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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Worked my butt off to get the place cleaned up after present unwrapping. I got the kids off to their Dad at 10 and cleaned cleaned cleaned. Got all the decorations down and the tree stripped and put in the yard. Kip accused me of being a grinch. I told him I had to do while I had the chance. The decorations and tree have been up for nearly a month. Nice to get it all packed away.
Kip has been in fairly constant contact since he has been away, I don't get it. Maybe his other lady friends are all busy. He got me a lovely pair of 1/2 ct diamond stud earrings. Really gorgeous, I am quite touched. We did our gift exchange a while ago.
Prof presented me with 2 beautifully gift wrapped boxes. I was so excited I opened them last night. I got myself all comfy, made a cup of tea and peeled off the wrapping carefully, opened the lovely white paper to find...A Dr Who sonic screwdriver pen, hmmm ok, box #2, same lovely wrapping, tissue paper and... a plush Dalek. WTF? I was literally looking under the paper for the real gift. Erm no. Then I thought they were meant for the kids...no, my name was on the boxes. Blimey. How much thought and effort went into that!He had asked me to send some ideas, which I did, book, knife sharpener, underwear sizes.
He literally just sent me a text asking if I had assembled it ( the sonic screwdriver) , apparently rather impressed by his own gift selection I plan to return it and buy a book. I am not a collector of junk, or treasures or knick knacks. No idea why he would think I would like them. Yes, I should appreciate the thought, fact is I don't think much thought went into it at all. Something hanging up at the check-out stand.
I took myself off to see the Hobbit, very much enjoyed it, much better than the first. Lots of skyping various family. No cooking!!!!!Kids due back in 20 minutes, looking forward to playing more with them. All in all a very pleasant day. Hope you all had a lovely day too.
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Me: 40s female
Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.

Last edited by Atlantis; 12-26-2013 at 12:08 AM.
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  #86  
Old 12-26-2013, 04:12 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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I have an OKC date lined up for the weekend, if ex takes the kids. Ex was humming and hawing about it yesterday.
I have been texting and messaging OKC guy on and off for about 8 months, the same time I met Prof and Yo. We never met first time around cause he wanted me to meet him at his place and I said no way. He said he didn't like the coffee meet/interview and wouldn't do that. I said I am not meeting in a non-public place, so we continued to text and message. He has since invited me to 2 activities, which I couldn't attend, so we are past the "my place or nothing" stage. Long past it.
He knows about Prof and Kip, we have discussed open relationships etc. He has weekends free and wants to do his own thing during the week but would like a weekend partner. So the scheduling part fits. He understands that I am a second hand flake, ie. when ex flakes I have to cancel.
I had 2 huge childcare bills for the past few months when ex wasn't picking them up after school and I had to do some before school care too. I have some good friends and a neighbor who help out, but no-one likes doing late nights, that is when I pay for a sitter.
Anyway, it will be nice to get dressed up and meet a new person.
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #87  
Old 12-27-2013, 07:01 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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Ex is taking the kids, they are very excited, all good.
Prof wants to shift from Wednesday to Mon and/or Thursday. I got the secondary bump! I was wondering how it would play it with both holidays being on a Weds. Now I know. I don't really care. He's heading for a bigger bump in a few weeks, off my schedule entirely.
Kip is still all chitty chatty online. I couldn't be bothered with him for a few days and got lots of sweet and concerned messages. Pah!
So date with OKC guy is on. I am looking forward to slapping on a bit of lippy and some heels.
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #88  
Old 12-28-2013, 02:46 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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Part I
Don't know if I can stick with the pair of them till the 8th. I have been tossing and turning all night, which never happens. When I stress, I sleep, I definitely do not lay in bed with thoughts racing.
Ex flakes, surprise but offers to do Sat through Monday morning instead.
Okc guy is fine with that we reschedule to Saturday lunch.
Let's go back a few weeks, I am asking Prof about weekends, we have not had one Fri or Sat night in 9 months. He raises the fact that S is undergoing treatment and he will be with her every weekend from now until forever. Shame on me for asking was implied too.She was due a round of treatment yesterday.
I text him and ask if he will be back in town on Sunday night, "highly unlikely" is the response. Hey, I need a shag.
One hour later comes the question.. am I free Sunday afternoon? I say yes, kids are away for the weekend. Am I free for an FMF? And here is a pic of the other F. Pic of F in his playroom arrives. He was already in town when he said he couldn't do Sunday.
The other F 's name is B. She was vetoed a long while back but Prof asked for her to be taken of the list as she was coming to town over the winter break. I ask if he is in town now..Friday evening? Yes he is. He has a 3 bedroom house with one bed. I ask how that is going to work, am I staying over with him? He replies that is optional. B is staying for the weekend. WFT??????? I don't get one night in 9 months and suddenly he is free for the whole weekend? The offer is, I get to join them for the FMF and go home. Unicorn! except I am not bi. Then he offers to book a hotel room so I can stay too. I actually agreed and then went to bed.
Then the thoughts race...I don't get a weekend night, I am being added to the couple, I was really expected to play and leave. He left S immediately post treatment to be with B but would not even leave 2 days later to be with me. Hasn't made time for me in 9 months.
Actions speak louder than words.
I got up and sent a text saying ..."Don't book a room, just do your own thing, have fun." Very restrained. He replied that they are sitting in a bar planning the evening. " Are you really out?" I didn't reply.
I know he does hierarchical relationships. He has a primary, and I am secondary, but apparently I got bumped down even further to "available hole" level. Thanks, but no thanks.
I don't want to see him ever again; talk, text, nothing.
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Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.
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  #89  
Old 12-28-2013, 03:06 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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You really need to dump these cheating lying sketchy assholes. You deserve better, you know that?
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
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  #90  
Old 12-28-2013, 06:02 PM
Atlantis Atlantis is offline
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Part II
Yes, Mags, agreed, enough is enough.
Prof will get an email cause I am too chicken shit to call or do it in person. I don't want to talk about it.
While I admit I am fairly poor at communicating my feelings, I have been very explicit in asking for what I want and what he can offer. I have been fed a line of bullshit for long enough.
I have been chewing away at the thought that I am too controlling, too many questions, I like clarity, who doesn't?
I like the idea of a polycule or polyfidelity. A fairly closed network. I see others on here do it, it looks appealing.
I have really been wrangling with the question of casual sex. Could I met someone for coffee and be naked with them an hour later? The answer is no.
One part of me says just do it, be open to trying, live a little. The other half says that I don't get turned on physically without the mind being involved too.
I have two kids for whom I am the sole stability and economic provider. I need to be safe for them. I cannot take the risks inherent is recreational sex. Sure I might get hit by a car, but meeting and hooking-up is a choice. While there is no guarantee taking it slowly will be better, at least there time to check the fit, safer sex practices, etc

There has been much talk with Kip. He said he is lining up coffee dates with some expectation of sex. Finally come clean to some degree.

I don't know why I have more patience with him than Prof. Kip said he worries that I will find someone more "substantial" and drop him. So he is keeping options open too. I understand that, or he is feeding me a line.
We made a number of agreements, worked out what we are comfortable with. I am not prepared to drop him yet. I have greatly benefited from the discussions of the past few days. The open communication that I read about on here. I feel like I can still learn from him. From Prof and S I have learned how not do poly/open. It all adds to the knowledge banks. No regrets. A clearer picture of what I want.
One change at a time.
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Me: 40s female
Kip: 50s male, married.
Prof: 50s male.

Last edited by Atlantis; 12-28-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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