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  #31  
Old 12-11-2013, 03:47 PM
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We have young children and we don't have a veto. N isn't attracted to people with bad character, I don't have to worry about him pursuing a relationship with anyone who would be a danger to our family. J also doeant have a say who N dates just like he doesn't have a say who we date. We don't bring people home though so if I didn't like someone he was seeing it wouldn't affect.me or my kids because I don't have to socialize with them.
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  #32  
Old 12-11-2013, 04:06 PM
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There's a school of thought about the veto rule that attempts to turn my Trust theory back on itself. Basically, it says that if you have this amazing trust between you, then you should be able to trust that your partner will not misuse the veto power by ending your other relationships due to insecurity or jealousy. It's a good point. If veto powers were a requirement of poly relationships, that's how I would think and structure my relationships accordingly.

However, veto powers aren't a requirement at all. People who rely on veto power to make them comfortable enough to proceed with polyamory give me enough doubt about the trust in their relaionship(s) to make me skeptical about their ability to use their veto responsibly.

Last edited by london; 12-11-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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  #33  
Old 12-11-2013, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natja View Post
I have children, I really don't like you implying that people who dislike vetoes just don't understand family responsibility.
I really do not see the point of having a veto against a person who might be on drugs or is a psycho...I mean, really, for realz? You expect your husband or yourself to get into a relationship with a crack addict and want to continue....that is a little bit sad that you don't trust each other NOT to do that that you even need a veto for it.

I don't know what London was saying but I don't get it.
I have children. 19, 10, and 7.

We do not have a veto power. We trust each other to be responsible adults and not bring people with unacceptable habits, issues, or lifestyles into their lives.

And yes I am in a long term relationship. Been with Butch 13 years and Murf 2 years.
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  #34  
Old 12-11-2013, 05:31 PM
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In our Vee, we technically have a "veto" rule, but I don't know that it would ever come into place - at least on my end.

The only time I'd ever even think about it would be if the other person were a disaster on wheels (no idea how to describe this, but I once had a friend who Vegas-married a woman who pretended to be the illegitimate daughter of John Lennon and Janis Joplin, tried to pass herself off as everything from a Playboy Bunny to a nurse to a racecar driver, tried to pull his daughter away from her mother, and wanted him and his friends to contribute money to "her cause" - helping children of celebrities. THAT is a combination of harmful and crazy that I'd run screaming from if I ever saw it again). However, if P were hell-bent on dating someone like that, I'd certainly tell him what my impression was, that I didn't want anything to do with her, and then reevaluate my own relationship with him if he started going down the cuckoo path as well. I wouldn't put my foot down and say "no", but I'd have one foot of my own out the door.

Laying down an ultimatum somehow seems to encourage either resentment or finding ways to sneak around it, neither of which I want to deal with, especially if it's a legitimate concern. I'd much rather just talk about it and take it on a case-by-case basis.

Luckily, P is pretty communicative (small-talk-wise, not privacy-violating-wise) about the people he sees, either as friends or as dates, so we seem to be moving well in that direction.

If it were ever turned back around on me (which I find highly unlikely ), and I saw no basis for it, I'd push back. No different from P telling me who can and can't be my friend, in my opinion. I would have to talk, at length, about WHY this is a problem, before agreeing to anything.

However, P and I never opened a marriage, do not have kids between us or a family "unit" that we feel we need to protect. That may make a huge difference to some folks. Your mileage may vary.
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Last edited by YouAreHere; 12-11-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Added moar stuff
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  #35  
Old 12-11-2013, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by YouAreHere View Post
In our if I ever saw it again). However, if P were hell-bent on dating someone like that, I'd certainly tell him what my impression was,
That is kind of what I was referring to both on here and on the 'first date' thread. I wonder what would make someone get involved with a person who is a hot mess, at least mentally... To give you some background, I once worked a season at a 'resort' (not glamorous at all) as a waitress, I had a terrific crush on a co-worker, he was about 10 years my senior so seemed very sophisticated and he was handsome. I had a feeling he knew I liked him too, there was quite a lot of flirtation, anyway, there was a girl from the town who worked the weekends, she was truly an emotional wreck, she had no sense of self, was abused and used to sleep with any of the blokes for trinkets, I think she was learning disabled too, she was pretty vulnerable.

One day I realised he was sleeping with her. I was sickened, not because I was jealous but because he knew she was vulnerable, he slept with her because she would do it, rather than because she liked him and that made him one of the long line of blokes just using this girl. It made me lose respect for him and I never looked at him again. He realised I turned off him, not to sure he realised why.

Anyway, I wonder with people going after the vulnerable or emotionally fragile, is it just to fulfil their own selfish needs? The desperation for a partner at all costs or what?

Why would someone wish to be with someone who simply isn't stable?

I should have raised my concerns about that girl but that was a really exploitative working environment they were unlikely to do anything anyway and I was pretty young at the time.
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  #36  
Old 12-11-2013, 07:39 PM
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OP, the title of your thread is How to handle being vetoed or being on the bad end of an ultimatum and I think the only way to do that is to avoid situations like that. How? If you are considering dating someone who is poly and already involved in other existing relationships, then you have to ask as many questions of them as possible in order to get a clear understanding of how they work in relationships. I am very wary of partnered poly peeps and my first question is always, "What agreements do you have with your partner that will affect me?" Sure, go out a few times but try to get to know them and how the dynamic of their partnership operates, BEFORE letting yourself get emotionally involved. Also, make sure you have clearly established your own personal boundaries about what is and is not acceptable to you and make sure your potentials know what they are. Know what you will and will not compromise on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarletzinnia View Post
I believe that veto can be used sanely and responsibly to keep toxic and destructive people out of your relationship when your partner may be a bit too wonked out on NRE to see things clearly.
I mean no disrespect to you, because it seems that this view works for you, but whenever I read this statement from people, I can't help but cringe.

See, I think the whole NRE excuse is pure bullshit. Yeah, I know what it's like to be totally enamored of someone, but crying "it's NRE!" as a way to excuse behavior makes me question someone's maturity and intelligence. Just because a person is turned on by someone they just met and is allowing themselves to walk around in a cloud of euphoria doesn't mean they are automatically absolved of all responsibilities in other areas of their life. I just never understand the emphasis many polyfolk seem to place on NRE, NRE, NRE.

I never want to police someone I am involved with, and I will not allow anyone's other partners to police me. So, if I learn that there is any hint at some kind of veto arrangement between a potential lover and any of his partners, or rules about what I can or cannot do with him, I simply will not go there. I would rather exit than waste my time walking on eggshells hoping a metamour approves of me or that they will let that rule go. My time and energy is more valuable to me than that. In addition, I am not someone who feels any need to have a friendship or shared social life with a metamour (if it happens, fine, but don't expect me to be your bff just because I'm boinking someone you also happen to be boinking). So, that is why I try to get a feel for what kind of poly they do BEFORE getting involved on a deeper or emotional level. And I make sure that he and his metamour understand that I have boundaries of my own that need to be respected. If they've opened their relationship and the guy wants to get involved with me, they both have to know that obviously there is a new dynamic in the mix and it simply won't be all about them anymore.
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Last edited by nycindie; 12-12-2013 at 01:44 AM.
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  #37  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:23 PM
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Functionally; every person has veto power.
We all have the right to say "i won't deal with xyz. You can choose xyz or me."
Officially-we don't have veto.

But-level of probability says that if my current partners can't stand you, I won't be continuing a relationship.
It's a guarantee that if you disrespect them or in any way I believe you are mistreating them; you will be out of there.
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  #38  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:23 AM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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What Loving Radiance just said.
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  #39  
Old 12-12-2013, 06:30 AM
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Sure, we all have boundaries. One boundary might be that all partners have to get on. However, expressing your boundaries isn't giving a veto. It might come to a point where someone has to choose between two people because their needs are so different and it's impossible to even try and meet them both. That isn't a veto. A veto is where your partner can stop your other relationships as soon as anything like that comes up. The decision is made for you: if things get sticky, you go with the person who has the veto power.

Another thing that can get in the way is when one or more of the people involved in a relationship can fail to comprehend that your partner can do things in their other relationships that have absolutely no impact on their union whatsoever. Say, for example, Wifey is strongly opposed to anal sex. She thinks it's very wrong for a variety of reasons. Hubby respects that Wifey isn't into it, but found him a nice little anal whore who makes him laugh and loves to let him bugger her. Wifey cannot let go of the idea that what Hubby does with GF has no bearing on her or their marriage and it becomes an issue. A big issue. She sees it as a "fundamental incompatibility" and wants to give an ultimatum/use her veto/force him to stop. The whole issue could be a non issue if she just let go of the idea that her husband is her possession and where he puts his protected penis is her business. It's a situation where a veto could be used or an ultimatum given purely because one partner can't relinquish their attempts to control.

Sure, someone might refuse a veto, ie, give their partner veto powers and when they attempt to use them, refuse to end other relationships but the partner still was given that power and if anything it makes you a bit of a bastard for letting them rely on having a veto. You let them believe that they had ultimate control over your other relationships and now, when they try to exercise that power, you tell them that their power was an illusion. People who need veto power will often only consent to a non monogamous relationship if they have that power. So by not sticking to it, you have gained consent from them under false pretences. Wifey told Hubby that he can veto anyone that has a substance abuse problem, well Hubby thinks that BFs penchant for a joint every evening is substance abuse and wants to veto. Yeah, he never saw that as an issue before he met BF and when his best friend smokes every night, but it is when BF does it and not just because Hubby is insanely jealous of BF, it's about the weed. Swearsies. Nobody can tell hubby that he doesn't feel that way. It's futile arguing that BF hasn't got a substance abuse problem. Wifey can either allow him to veto the relationship, or refuse and deal with all the possible consequences of that.

People in existing relationships often do have the ability to make their partner's life extremely awkward and unpleasant if they don't do what makes them happy, especially if they have kids. Being able to make your partner suffer for wanting, needing or behaving in a way that you don't approve of or that isn't about meeting your needs isn't utilizing veto power. Using that power you have over each other to manipulate them into behaviour you want to see is a terrible, harmful way of obtaining veto power you haven't been given to control your partner's other relationships. It's frightfully common, unfortunately.

Healthy relationships don't need anyone to make a rule saying I'll listen to your concerns, I'll maintain my parental and spousal obligations or I wont date a serial killer.

Last edited by london; 12-12-2013 at 07:37 AM.
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
If you are considering dating someone who is poly and already involved in other existing relationships, then you have to ask as many questions of them as possible in order to get a clear understanding of how they work in relationships. I am very wary of partnered poly peeps and my first question is always, "What agreements do you have with your partner that will affect me?" Sure, go out a few times but try to get to know them and how the dynamic of their partnership operates, BEFORE letting yourself get emotionally involved. Also, make sure you have clearly established your own personal boundaries about what is and is not acceptable to you and make sure your potentials know what they are. Know what you will and will not compromise.....

See, I think the whole NRE excuse is pure bullshit......

In addition, I am not someone who feels any need to have a friendship or shared social life with a metamour
I agree with the above 2 statements.
But, we are all different and we get to figure out how this is going to work for us and for me--- I to like to have a friendship or shared social life with a metamour or metamours. It is not something I would try to force- sometimes there is no interest, but the ideal situation for me is that there is a family/community dynamic.
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