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  #21  
Old 12-10-2013, 05:17 PM
AlwaysGrowing AlwaysGrowing is offline
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They didn't have a veto agreement. She just decided she was not okay with me, and told him he had to choose: her or me.

I've cut all contact with him. I am working on not settling for things that I don't actually want, and at this point in time I have zero interest in being his friend. Without the hope or desire for the return of our romantic connection... I'm out.

On the plus side... This experience (which was AWFUL for a few days, but I know better for me in the long run) has made a few of the people I've been talking to from OKCupid and the like revisit their agreements with partners. Apparently seeing how ridiculous a veto/ultimatum situation is from the side of the person being dumped makes people realize how terrible it really is. Maybe my pain will save someone else from this fate in the future.
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2013, 05:23 PM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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I believe that veto can be used sanely and responsibly to keep toxic and destructive people out of your relationship when your partner may be a bit too wonked out on NRE to see things clearly. The OP's situation does not appear to be this, of course.

In my primary relationship, we have decided that veto is permissible if a third party has substance problems that are creating issues in the relationship, if they do anything to endanger our children, or if they fail to disclose things that we need to know for our sexual health. Mental instability may be grounds for veto if it creates significant issues in the relationship. Lying may be as well, it depends on the seriousness of the deceit. We had a situation some years back where my husband's brand-new love interest was telling me, unsolicited, how great her marriage was, while she was telling my husband she was unhappy and wanted out. (No clue why it never occurred to her that he and I actually talked to each other now and then. That's not the only reason I vetoed her, but it was a contributing factor.) Trashtalking the primary, and then continuing to do so after a warning, is definitely grounds for veto with us, we don't insist that our partners become friends but we do insist on mutual respect.

I have been on the bad end of a veto myself, similar to the OP's, his wife threw a hissy fit that lasted for months, because we fell in love. She never owned what was really bothering her, but it was obvious. They as a couple never owned that a veto was what was happening, but that was also obvious, since he and I were having a successful long-term relationship before she threw her tantrum, in fact, we had just fluid bonded, with her consent.

I am so sorry that this happened to you, AlwaysGrowing. I know how painful it can be.
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  #23  
Old 12-10-2013, 06:16 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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AG-sounds like you made the right choice.
But-since I have been in the role of the wife who was accused of this; I thought I would give some feedback from that side that may not have occurred to you (or any other potential reader).
I'm NOT saying this is what SHE was thinking/doing. But it is an alternate scenario that can arise.

In my situation, I am the V between Maca and GG. Maca found someone he was interested in and they started talking. A few months in he opted to share that info with me (which was directly in conflict with our agreement). It took 4 months before he bothered to give either of us contact info for the other so we could even say hello via email or anything.
Within days of that she decided she should be free to wander through his life at will and I had no right to a say so.
It JUST SO HAPPENED that her decision occurred within a month of me having to go off of my ADD, Depression and anxiety medications suddenly-due to a health issue that needed immediate attention. The health issue didn't require his "full time attention". However-the loss of those other meds in January; quite certainly sent me into a tailspin of depression (suicidal and attempting), out of control anxiety (full scale panic attacks repeat times a day so bad I couldn't leave the bathroom or bedroom).
The doctors HAD WARNED US that this was LIKELY to happen and that I needed to be watched round the clock.

But-he was in NRE and she wanted more and more of his time and attention. She wanted nothing to do with me because I wasn't "her problem".
I wanted nothing to do with her-because the fact that I DID NOT KNOW HER made her presence increase my anxiety issues (not about THEM; just in general).

But-I sure as hell needed GG to stay around.

She spent over a year after that spreading rumors all through our community that I was a controlling, possessive psycho bitch who wanted to have my cake and eat it to, but wouldn't let Maca date. Because he called it off with her when she refused to accept that he temporarily needed to get me through the medical procedures so I could go back on my meds (which I did within a month, but it took another month for all of the meds to even out in my system and my anxiety and depression to level off to normal again).

Two months-which I needed her to stay away from me (and my home which is what pissed her off) for MY HEALTH.
But that was seen as derailing their chances.

There's two key points.
One is the same one that Galagirl made.
Skills. The skills for being a hinge are VERY different than the skills for being a metamour and someone who doesn't have them, will have to deal with the emotional and intellectual changes that happen. It just is that way.
In my case, I had been a metamour. I had not been a metamour with someone I didn't know DURING a time when I was having a major health crisis. The previous health crisis; I already knew the girlfriend and she was supportive and helpful as a friend to me directly. It still meant that they had to derail some of their personal plans, but she didn't mind being home with me for their dates. In fact she enjoyed having me get sexy and romantic pictures for them. But mostly-she knew it was temporary because she also struggles with depression and anxiety and she KNEW I would be at her place to support her when she struggled (which also happened).

Two; we can't always see the issues that someone else is struggling through that impact how they behave. Even a year is a short period of time in terms of a life. I spent 1 year requiring round the clock care due to 3 major surgeries one after the other. That was a time with dating new people wasn't an option for ANY OF US. I couldn't do any of my duties in the household or as a parent. So the guys had to pick up ALL of the slack, maintain their normal responsibilities AND split the time caring for me. An existing relationship that had already been established and was comfortable being involved who we were all comfortable hanging out with as well; would have been fine. But a NEW person would not.

It's important I think to realize, that someone who does dysfunctional relationship behaviors COULD be needing to just do the learning to resolve it. They COULD stay that way indefinitely.
They COULD be struggling through a temporary, short term issue that is creating that seemingly dysfunctional need.
They COULD be struggling through a temporary, long term issue that is creating that dysfunctional need.

It's not always as simple as "what a possessive bitch".
In truth, I'm not possessive. I'm also the only one in our V who isn't. GG isn't possessive of me. But he's VERY VERY possessive of the kids. Maca is EXTREMELY possessive of both.
I'm not possessive.
EXCEPT when I am not ok. When I am having a health crisis, I am absolutely possessive of the two people I know I can trust to make sane, reasonable and rational decisions on my behalf when I am unable to.

It really does pay, when one is wanting a long term, intricately involved relationship, to take the extra time REGARDLESS of NRE, to establish a relationship with each person involved. Because things like medical crisises don't always come in a form of a hospital stay. Sometimes they come in the form of medication changes that you will never see. The person LOOKS fully functioning and continues most of their normal activities. But in fact they are NOT fully functional and they require MUCH more assistance and support. That's something one needs to know is a risk in situations where it is higher risk. So you can assess your own expectations.
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2013, 06:48 PM
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idealist idealist is offline
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I just wanted to share my experience with a guy that I see and his wife....I call them Lee and Judy.

First I want to start out by saying infatuation and NRE are one thing. But a lasting love is something altogether different. And- in my opinion, it takes time to realize whether a relationship is going to mature into a emotionally healthy long lasting love connection that each person will be committed to into the future.

For me- when I happen upon one of those, I value it and I adapt myself to the circumstances which are much more complex in the poly world.

So- I met Lee and Judy 4 years ago. She is straight so there was never the thought that she and I would develop an intimate relationship. She also never showed much of an interest in getting to know me well.

But Lee and I did have a connection and we both desired to see how that connection would develop.

As Lee and I began to see each other gradually and it became clear that we are interested in a long term connection, Judy's fears began to come up.

So- at that point, I could either run the other way (which you are saying you are going to do) or I could honor Judy in her process and continue to be authentic and present when Lee and I were able to spend time together.

It took 2 1/2 years for Judy to feel comfortable with Lee spending the night with me.

6 or 8 months after that, they invited me over to their house and we went out to eat, dancing and I spent the night at their house.

She and I had a heartfelt discussion where she admitted her fears and insecurities to me. She told me that she trusts me. That meant a lot to me and it meant a lot to Lee.

The next time Lee and I spent time together, I felt a much deeper connection developing between us.

I guess my bottom line message to you is this:

Things don't always go like I want them to go. Sometimes I have to adapt and let things happen gradually. And- it's not always black or white.
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  #25  
Old 12-10-2013, 11:56 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idealist View Post
Things don't always go like I want them to go. Sometimes I have to adapt and let things happen gradually. And- it's not always black or white.
So true. In the world of therapy, dealing with patients fears means helping them to face that which they fear, go through the emotions of fear and see that they survived.
In context of a poly dynamic; that means allowing them to feel the emotions while continuing to experience the things they are afraid of (like their partner having another love). But-they can't do that if every time they express their fears and insecurities, the metamour bails.

Not saying that anyone has to stay.
But worth considering the ramifications. Especially if you are considering leaving someone you really love.
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  #26  
Old 12-11-2013, 07:20 AM
london london is offline
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Quote:
In my primary relationship, we have decided that veto is permissible if a third party has substance problems that are creating issues in the relationship, if they do anything to endanger our children, or if they fail to disclose things that we need to know for our sexual health. Mental instability may be grounds for veto if it creates significant issues in the relationship.
Seemingly because you cannot trust your husband not to get significantly involved with a drug addict or someone who would harm you or your children. People who can trust a partner to have appropriate and healthy partner selection doesn't require this.

OP, I strongly, strongly advise that you keep away from people who are not trusted by their partners. If you think waiting 2.5 years for someone to allow you to express the way you feel about someone they happen to be in a relationship with, sure, try that method where you keep earning the privilege of using someone else's possession. That's not for me though. I want relationships where the people in them have control. Not a possessive metamour with numerous issues, all of which will negatively impact on me. To me, that's not a real relationship.
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  #27  
Old 12-11-2013, 01:15 PM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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Oh, good lord, London. Just because we came up with a list of potential acceptable grounds for veto doesn't mean my husband is an idiot, or that I am.

It's very easy for people who are not in long-term relationships and don't have kids, to get in a froth about veto power. I reveal all our agreements to my potential partners, and anyone who has a problem with them is free to halt things right there. No one ever has.
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  #28  
Old 12-11-2013, 01:44 PM
london london is offline
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Can you not see how it's strange to require a rule stating that you won't date drug addicts and psychos? I have a child and I've had long term relationships that included boundaries on how we would interact with other people, I've never felt I've had to state a rule or boundary prohibiting either of us from interacting with people that would cause us harm or has an unhealthy, risky lifestyle that would negatively impact on us. Not because we didn't have anything of value between us to protect, but because the assumption would be that neither of us would consider such a relationship and would terminate any relationship that turned out that way.

The only time a veto rule has ever made sense to me is when I was in a very dark place, plagued with doubt and insecurity about myself and everyone else. At that time, the thought of trusting a partner to make wise decisions about anything of note was laughable, let alone judging who would be a decent person to have a relationship with.
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  #29  
Old 12-11-2013, 02:23 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarletzinnia View Post
Oh, good lord, London. Just because we came up with a list of potential acceptable grounds for veto doesn't mean my husband is an idiot, or that I am.

It's very easy for people who are not in long-term relationships and don't have kids, to get in a froth about veto power. I reveal all our agreements to my potential partners, and anyone who has a problem with them is free to halt things right there. No one ever has.
I have children, I really don't like you implying that people who dislike vetoes just don't understand family responsibility.
I really do not see the point of having a veto against a person who might be on drugs or is a psycho...I mean, really, for realz? You expect your husband or yourself to get into a relationship with a crack addict and want to continue....that is a little bit sad that you don't trust each other NOT to do that that you even need a veto for it.

I don't know what London was saying but I don't get it.
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  #30  
Old 12-11-2013, 03:18 PM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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Sorry if I seemed to be implying that parents who did poly without veto power were irresponsible, Natja. That is not what I meant at all. But I have noticed that the poly activists and those who otherwise write about polyamory a lot online, who weigh in as strongly anti-veto, seem to be either child-free, or else their kids are grown and gone. And that their thinking on this issue is often very, very simplistic.

My husband and I like to make lists. We had always been vague about veto power, just that we saw it as a nuclear option. A couple of years ago we felt a need to be clearer, so we tossed around ideas for what would constitute grounds for veto. That was how we came up with the list I posted here.

It IS true that my husband tends to see the best in people, as I have posted in a different thread here, and to excuse bad behavior. And that I have doubts about his judgement of people and find it difficult to trust in it. So we have veto power, but we both feel it is important to define how it can, and can't, be used, so that our partners are protected as much as possible.

I do not think my husband would ever tolerate continuing in a relationship with a partner who developed serious substance issues or endangered our children. If he did, I can't imagine that veto power would even be relevant, since I can't imagine sticking around in the marriage if that was the case.
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