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  #111  
Old 12-01-2013, 07:39 AM
london london is offline
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I have no idea what you mean about posting from different profiles. Just to be clear though, you've said more offensive things than kdt. It's getting quite tedious, all this, I'm starting to question the ethics of debating with people who really aren't cognitively sound.
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  #112  
Old 12-01-2013, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
What is RLDS?
When Joseph Smith died, the Mormons as we know them today followed his friend Brigham Young, left Missouri and continued the church in Utah. The RLDS stayed in Missouri under Joseph Smiths wife and son. They have their temple in Independence Missouri.
Same teachings up to the point where Joseph Smith died. Then things begin to differ. They both have the Bible, Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. However-the D/C is considered a living book that continues to be written (in both churches to this day) so what has been written since JS death is different.
The RLDS (which have since changed their name due to confusion with Mormons to "Community of Christ") church does not believe in polygamy, just as the mainstream Mormon church does not. But they do all come from the same beginnings under Joseph Smith.

On that note-KDT I would agree, very different cultures, thought not necessarily races. I recall when the RLDS church came across the quandry of having done missions into India where men had multiple wives-which went against church doctrine. So what to do what to do. They spent an inordinate amount of time discussing it and concluded that it would be abusive (their word) and dysfunctional (my word) to force men to divorce their "extra" wives in order to join the church, because it would put those women out in their society as, well, trash. Anyway, they opted instead to alter their "rules" to accept that families in that society were free to have multiple wives blah blah blah. I find it very intriguing that the battle to accept homosexuals into the fold openly -went very smoothly a few years later. Whereas accepting women into the priesthood which happened a few years prior caused a damn near 50/50 break in the church with one group leaving the community and starting another church of their own because they were so against women in the priesthood.

****back to topic*****Anyway- I think that culture and race are actually different (and are defined different) and that sometimes the issue is cultural. But sometimes the issue of segregation is not cultural. Sometimes it is cuased more by a fear on one side or both that the difference in race COULD be a problem (because it HAS BEEN before) and to avoid the potential problem, they avoid the intermixing.
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  #113  
Old 12-01-2013, 07:00 PM
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I have to admit-all of this discussion is actually helping me with my class. Finals are in a week and a half. I've gone through this book forward and backward during our discussion. I'm at a point now where I am starting to memorize which side of the page certain information is etc. Pretty cool.

Found another pertinent quote/comment/topic for this thread.

p. 346 of the book.
"stereotype threat-a disruptive concern, when facing a negative stereotype, that one will be evaluated based on a negative stereotype. Unlike self-fulfilling prophesies that hammer one's reputation into one's self-concept, stereotype threat situations have immediate effects.

Just being sensitive to prejudice is enough to make us self-conscious when living as a numerical minority-perhaps as a black person in a white community or as a white person in a black community. As with other circumstances that siphon off our mental energy and attention, the result can be diminished mental and physical stamina (inzlicht & others, 2006). Placed in a situation where others expect you to perform poorly, your anxiety may also cause you to confirm the belief."

and

"Cognitive sources of prejudice; recent research shows how the stereotyping that underlies prejudice is a by-product of our thinking-our ways of simplifying the world. Clustering people into categories exaggerates the uniformity within a group and the differences between groups.
A distinctive individual, such as a lone minority person, has a compelling quality that makes us aware of differences that would otherwise go unnoticed. The occurrence of two distinctive events (for example, a minority person committing an unusual crime) helps create an illusory correlation between people and behavior. Attributing others' behavior to their dispositions can lead to the group-serving bias: assigning outgroup members' negative behaviors to their natural character while explaining away their positive behaviors.
and
Blaming the victim results from the common presumption that because this is a just world, people get what they deserve.

Motivational Sources of prejudice:
People's motivations affect prejudice. Frustration breeds hostility, which people sometimes vent on scapegoats and sometimes express more directly against competing groups.
People also are motivated to view themselves and their groups as superior to other groups. Even trivial group memberships lead people to favor their own group over others. A threat to self-image heightens such ingroup favoritism, as does the need to belong.

and
On a more positive note, if people are motivated to avoid prejudice, they can break the prejudice habit."
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  #114  
Old 12-01-2013, 11:11 PM
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Re (from opalescent): Why respond to Dirtclustit ... because I ... felt like it ... because I was "Fascinated, Captain" by the unexpected. Yes it's true. I had no idea he was gonna say I never did missionary work in Detroit. That one just came out of thin air. I was too darned "Fascinated, Captain" by that unprecedented change of affairs as I understood them.

I guess I gave him a C for Creativity, and am hoping he'll go into more detail about what he thinks my motivations for lying about my mission would have been. Was curious to find out how I'd respond to this kind of unprecedented challenge.

Sorry about the four-post monster.

Re:
Quote:
"Just because dirt lost his shit -- again! -- and weirdly accused you of not being a 'real' Mormon because he inexplicably doubts you went on mission does not mean you should feed the crazy."
[bowing head in contrite humility] ... I know, I know; I fed the crazy. Sorry about that. I didn't want to ... but then suddenly it was too tempting. Hey, sometimes the Twilight Zone can be a fun place to visit ...

And yes, I did see the sign going in: "Please don't feed the trolls and the crazies around here." And I wanted to save my peanuts for the more worthy exhibits, but then that little devil on my left shoulder whispered in my ear and against all the counsel of the little angel on my right shoulder, I tossed some peanuts into Dirtclustit's disheveled pen. I'm embarrassed. I'm not worthy. I suck. Please have mercy on my own not-so-sane-as-it-seems soul.

Re:
Quote:
"Even if you are not 'real,' you owe nothing to anyone here."
I agree. I only did it for fun ... honest injun ...

Re:
Quote:
"In fact, you have every right to ignore my butting in here to offer a suggestion."
No your suggestion is wise and reasonable. I promise I'll try to do better in the future.

Re (from Post #92):
Quote:
"Dirtclustit, this is by far the longest post you'll ever get from me. From now on, I'm going to distance myself from you, and you're welcome to brag that's it's because you supposedly proved me wrong. Eventually I'll probably stop repying to anything you say altogether -- a threat which would scare ColorsWolf but I know it doesn't scare you so score yourself a point."
Given the fact that I posted the above statement publicly, I apologize to Dirtclustit, to the remaining members of Polyamory.com, and yea, even to myself. I presumed to predict the future and then became the proof that my prediction was wrong. I didn't *say* it was a promise (actually I said it was a threat which was too harsh a word; "prospect" would have been a better word), but you could certainly rightfully begrudge the fact that I didn't keep my word.

The above quote should have read: "Dirtclustit, this is *probably* by far the longest post you'll ever get from me. From now on, I'll *probably* distance myself from you ..." Then at least I wouldn't have ended up breaking my own word.

Please forgive/pardon me for doing that, taking into account how shocked I was that Dirtclustit (said he) didn't believe my "mission story," as well as the fact that his post (the one I so long-windedly indulged), while still being rather aggressive, was at least reasonable enough to make more plain what it is that I've been doing that's (supposedly) been bugging him. Finally, some material I could really work with; not just vague, insulting riddles.

If I was never very active at all in the church, and invested little or no study in the LDS scriptures (the King James version of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Articles of Faith), and if as part and parcel to all that, I neither served a mission nor thus spent time amongst black people in Detroit, then you could claim that I was unqualified to claim any knowledge about any black people, and that I was unqualified to claim any significant knowledge about the Mormon church, and thus was totally out of line in saying anything that would make the Mormon church look bad. So if Dirtclustit truthfully disbelieves my church-and-mission story, then he has legit reason to protest much of what I've posted in this thread.

But I admit, I'm starting to have suspicious thoughts of my own, and there's new reason for me to play it safer in the future. It all seems so surreal, and I've started to wonder, who's playing who? Bleah, that game's losing its novelty. For example, I'm now wondering how many accounts the user of the Dirtclustit account has.

---

ColorsWolf, your last post was excellent, and made sense. I agree with you that "too much sanity" (e.g. too tight of a hinge) is arguably as bad for a guy or gal as is "too much insanity." So I'll pardon your "unhingedness" if you'll pardon my (on-and-off) "hingedness."

Kevin

---

@ london ... I'm sad to say that Dirtclustit's probably "less hinged" than ColorsWolf, though I admit that's my personal opinon (and grant me that it doesn't count as an insult because I know that I, for one, don't choose to have the mental and emotional disorders that I have).

This ain't the first time Dirtclustit has accused someone of having multiple accounts (e.g. sock puppet accounts) on this forum. I think he believes that a whole lot of people (even Franklin Veaux! You figure that one out) are posting on this forum from many different accounts: usually for the purpose of tricking other Polyamory.com members into thinking that more people subscribe to this or that opinion or position than the true number of people who subscribe to it. It sounds crazy to me, but I admit it's technically possible.

Anyway london, I really really appreciate (and need) your morale support for me, on this forum and especially on this thread. Hope I'll never do anything to give you cause to regret that support.

And you're right, my indulgence of Dirtclustit's weird accusations is questionable, both in terms of whether it's a good way for anyone to spend any of their time, but also in terms of whether it's doing Polyamory.com any favors (which makes it a moral/ethical consideration).

I don't know whether my four-post post was such a great idea. From the moment I posted it, I've changed my mind a dozen times at least about whether I should have posted it. In the end, I guess I'm just not sure.

By the way, there's a chance Dirtclustit isn't nuts, but rather, a reeeally clever troll. Or both ... "crazy like a fox" as they say.

---

LovingRadiance, loved the post where you gave us more info about the Community of Christ (a.k.a. the RLDS church). Most of it was stuff I didn't previously know and I found it, well ... "Fascinating Captain." I knew about the contraversy over giving the Priesthood to the women of the church, and I knew why it originally broke away from the LDS church, but the rest of your post was new info for me. So thank you for sharing it.

But quick handy bullet list:
  • LDS [adjective] = of or belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the "original" Mormons who are now based out of those huge buildings in Salt Lake City).
  • RLDS [adjective] = of of belonging to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, now known as the "Community of Christ." Probably the first break-off from the LDS church (or the first that got very far).
Anyway: you're right, culture really isn't the same thing as race. I'll go even further out on a limb and say that handicaps of any kind differ in type, nature, and inherent issues than both race and culture. I feel qualified to say that because I am handicapped (i.e., my brain is broken).

Heck you can hate other people for all kinds of dumb reasons. You can hate someone because of the shoes they wear, because they say "what what" too often, because they're a fan of some team you're rooting against, because they vote Republican, because they hate driving a stick shift, or whatever.

Even religion is distinguished from race, culture, and handicaps. These are all different excuses people can use to hate and/or discriminate against each other, and all come with their own sets of traits and issues. Having said that, there is overlap between various things. So when I say, "Polyamory and Racial Minorities" in my thread title, I do arguably make room for tangents into the cultural, religious, and handicap areas. The thread mostly has to do with the question, "How can we get more poly people from differing races to join hands?" But that question invites further discussion about a range of trials and experiences that outcasts of all kinds may experience. As long as we don't get *too* caught up in those tangents, then I'll personally consider us to still be reasonably near or within the fuzzy bounds of the official topic.

---

And by the way LR: good stuff from that book you've been reading.
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  #115  
Old 12-02-2013, 12:59 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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kdt,

Please don't apologize to me!

I guess what didn't come through in my short post is that you didn't do anything wrong. Yes, I believe not feeding the crazy is a good strategy to maintain one's own sanity.

But responding to Dirt is not 'wrong'. You felt the need to respond and there is nothing wrong in that. I just wanted to bring up to you that maybe it's not 'best'. But if you feel otherwise, that doesn't make you wrong. It just means you disagree with me. Which is perfectly acceptable. While I have strong opinions on just about everything, I also know my experience is not the sum total of the universe. (Although some days I feel it should be! )

@LR, thank you for the info on the RLDS. I had heard about the groups that broke away after the polygamy decision but had no idea there were earlier divisions in Mormonism. TIL!

Last edited by opalescent; 12-02-2013 at 01:01 PM. Reason: additional info
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  #116  
Old 12-02-2013, 06:39 PM
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Dirtclustit, it makes me sad to think that you view me as a lying cog in some vast conspiracy, but I suppose I need to make some peace with that. It's your right to believe as you see fit, and not my right to tell you what to believe.

I'm also awkwardly aware of the lameness of my so-called evidence. One can learn virtually anything about the Mormon church by fishing around on the web, so my spouting off Mormon doctrine or whatever doesn't prove that I was ever active or ever served a mission.

But consider one last thing. If I have no compunctions about lying as I purportedly have so far, why would I stop at claiming six months' mingling with the folks of Detroit? Not very smart of me; it would make more sense for me to claim that I'd been born in Detroit and lived there all my life. Then I could really claim I knew my stuff when talking about at least one black culture.

But perhaps it's not my alleged knowledge of Detroit black culture that bothers/troubles/angers you, it's my alleged knowledge of the Mormon church that bothers/troubles/angers you. Well as I said, that kind of knowledge can be fished right out of the worldwide web, so in the end does it matter where I got my knowledge from? except for knowledge of the subtle nuances of Mormon culture, which one can arguably only get by having lived the experience. [shrug] Whatever it is, that's what it is. I'm lying or not lying, various people do or don't believe me, and with all that going on, yet the world continues to turn and orbit around the Sun. Cities remain intact; dubious politics roll down their twisty roads as they've done for as long as written history can tell.

I don't think anything I say is going to have a big effect on the world, its laws, or its policies. I'm not any kind of authority or powerful person with some huge cult following. I'm just a very talkative person as you can see.

And as for getting along with other races/cultures, I'm probably too lazy to make huge changes in my life and routine even for that noble of a cause. I just want to know some little/easy things that a socially handicapped person as myself (thanks Dad for passing those genes on to me) can to do shrink racial and cultural divides just a little. If this thread accomplishes nothing more than me making a couple of new friends from races and/or cultures "foreign" to me, then I'll personally be satisfied.

And I've learned that I'll always make enemies here and there. I'll never please everyone. Sux coz I do like to please, but, then, who'd be pleased if I didn't pursue my own code of morals/ethics to the best of my knowledge? I have to do that much at least.

---

Re (from Dirtclustit):
Quote:
"I never asked you for your name, you are not the type of person I would want to know anything about, let alone your name."
Okay; sorry for telling you my name, I realize that you didn't ask. Hey at least it's only my current name I revealed, not the original one. In case that's any consolation.

Re:
Quote:
"I would only ask that you quit talking shit ..."
Well I'll try to not belabor the shit, but since it's shit that I actually believe, I can't guarantee that I'll never talk it again. Not what you'd have wanted to hear obviously but hey, I'm still fishing around for middle ground in case there is any.

Re:
Quote:
"Don't fuck with the passage of equal rights because of some butt hurt slight from almost a decade ago."
If you mean, equal rights for the Mormon church, then I'll try not to fuck with the passage of that. Just so we agree that one guy's freedom ends where his nose ends and the next guy's nose begins!

Re:
Quote:
"I don't care how you list the acronym LGBT and I don't care how subtle your slights are or how fucked up your positions are in articles."
Garsh, who do you think I am? I'm not Franklin Veaux, if that's what you're suggesting.

I think I did mention LGBT in some order or another, in some post way back there, but I don't even remember how I listed it. I've heard others list it so many ways: LGBT, LGBTA, LGBTI, LGBTQ, LGBTPQ, LGBTQIA and many more such as acronyms that start with "GL" instead of "LG."

I've never written an article in my life that I can recall (oh wait yes I have, but that was in school). I've written a post or three, and read some articles. Even decided what my own opinions were about those articles. But you need not care about that; it need not affect you one way or the other.

Subtle slights? Oh sure, I'm probably guilty, though I might be inclined to rather call them "humor in poor taste." But again, no need for you to care about any of that so I guess we're good.

Re:
Quote:
"I also firmly believe that people engaging in creative writing yet adamantly claiming it as real experiences does *not* help any situation."
I won't argue with that. Sorry if it seems like that's what I'm doing.

Re:
Quote:
"It doesn't help poly, it doesn't do anything good unless you think confusion is good."
Nope; confusion sucks.

Re:
Quote:
"In fact I would appreciate if ignored me, and I will do the same."
I'll try to ignore you more than I have in the past. I'm fine with you ignoring or not ignoring me, whichever you think is best.

---

Re (from opalescent):
Quote:
"Please don't apologize to me!"
Heh ... it's just that I feel so apologetic about feeling so apologetic ...

Re:
Quote:
"I guess what didn't come through in my short post is that you didn't do anything wrong. Yes, I believe not feeding the crazy is a good strategy to maintain one's own sanity."
Eh; I'm feeling mostly sane these days. Probably partly thanks to Zyprexa, but also thanks to those good folks here who help remind me that I'm not crazy (or at least not *too* crazy).

I don't mind agreeing to disagree but I still feel at least slightly bad about posting that four-post post. Not completely bad, though; as I've reviewed it several times I've realized it sounds remarkably sane, even if the choice to respond to Dirtclustit at all remains dubious.

And while I'm guilty of responding to Dirtclustit yet again (in defiance of his own wishes I fear), do note that I'm trying to contain the size of my verbiage a bit more. I can haz partial credit, yes? and hopefully I can slowly but surely gracefully back out of any convo at all with Dirtclustit, kind of like I'd slowly back away from a raging grizzly bear.

Anyway, we're still friends, right? Friends? Pinky handshake? Yes yes?

Kevin.
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  #117  
Old 12-02-2013, 08:35 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Re (from opalescent):


Heh ... it's just that I feel so apologetic about feeling so apologetic ...

Re:

I don't mind agreeing to disagree but I still feel at least slightly bad about posting that four-post post. Not completely bad, though; as I've reviewed it several times I've realized it sounds remarkably sane, even if the choice to respond to Dirtclustit at all remains dubious...

Anyway, we're still friends, right? Friends? Pinky handshake? Yes yes?

Kevin.
*opalescent pinky swears friends with Kevin* A pinky swear friendship is srs bidness among my people!
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  #118  
Old 12-02-2013, 09:59 PM
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*blink*

*blinkblinkblink*

London, if I may paraphrase you, there's a WHOLE LOTTA cray cray going on.

LR, I really need to dig into your posts (and may just PM you for your FB info), since I really, REALLY dig the psych stuff (would have minored in it as an undergrad, but didn't have the cash to stay an extra semester). Our brains do pattern match as a matter of course, whether it's to categorize things, people, emotions, feelings, or physical/perceptual/cognitive patterns as well. I always enjoyed that from the mathematical/logical perspective, and would have loved to have dug into the psych persepective more.

CW, I'm glad to see your response to LR. I stopped engaging you a while back when you clamored for understanding yet refused to offer the same - you seemed to want more of a soapbox than a dialog, and I was through talking to a brick wall that yelled back. I hope you take LR's and Kevin's comments to heart.

Kevin... As far as your original question, waaaay back when, I do have to agree that it's all individual. I have a Haitian friend who HATES being called African American. Then again, he refers to himself as an "Island Boy" and he gets all smirky when he does. It's kinda funny. If I screw up and say the wrong thing, I will apologize and try to not repeat my faux pas. If someone's going to hold it against me, then I will still do my best to not repeat my screw-up, but I will tend to think they have a bug up their ass and not want to engage them again anyway. Life goes on.

Those who want to be persecuted (and that's not just racially), despite other peoples' best intentions, will feel persecuted. I can bend over backwards and still be unable to please them. Their choice to remain in the hole they've dug for themselves. (I'm not talking about those who truly are persecuted, if that isn't clear).

Blah. Back to work. It's really telling when I'm taking a break on writing personnel reviews in order to reply here.
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Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

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  #119  
Old 12-02-2013, 10:49 PM
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Re (from opalescent):
Quote:
"[opalescent pinky swears friends with Kevin] ... A pinky swear friendship is srs bidness among my people!"
Damn! It's official now. I solemnly submit to this new oath.

@YouAreHere ... uh yep, it sure seem cray cray to me. Love your post in general. Humans are always interesting in their odd -- cray cray way.

@Dirtclustit (Dusty is fine too if you prefer) ... I'm running ever more out of words (guess that four-post post sucked my own wind right out of me), and can't even think of specific replies to your specific comments.

It sounds like I'm part of some kind of reeeally big conspiracy, and that I'm an out-and-out asshole besides. (I got that part.) I purportedly smile/laugh in the face of the pain I (try to?) cause other people, and I seemingly post articles in online magazines which comes to me as quite a surprise.

I hope you won't too much hold it against me if I keep gradually creeping back out of our admittedly-interesting-but-kinda-scary conversation. I know you won't think it's sincere but I do apologize for any hurt, pain, or fear I have caused you. Not intended I swear; it's just me and my twisted sense of humor again.

You need not run from me; I won't block you and will always be interested to read your posts. And I hope you'll believe me when I say I've no intention of contracting a hit on you! Jeezh, didn't I mention I wasn't into that violence sort of thing? So your position is safe here on Polyamory.com; I won't try to challenge or threaten it.

I don't want to do my worst; I just want to tiptoe away. That's my current battle plan. I need to slink away so that some other abuser can take my place. Time for this abuser to clock out.

Believe it or not there's at least five other people who find me as despicable as you (I take it) find me: namely, my late wife's kids. Sigh. They'd definitely put a bullet in my head if they had the chance and thought they could get away with it. Actually they'd be more likely to crucify me or something if they thought they could get away with it.

I thank you for giving me the okay to continue to express my opinions (or lies, or whatever they are), even if you gave the okay in a less-than-warm-and-fuzzy manner. It's still the best thing to do. None of us (except the mods) on this forum can stop each other from saying this or that anyway.

Anywayz yeah, I'm gonna zip the lip for awhile now, and try to talk a leedle bit less in the future. Hope that helps.
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  #120  
Old 12-03-2013, 12:22 AM
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This thread is being temporarily closed while mods discuss some of the unrelated posts that are taking away from the point and purpose of the thread.

The thread is re-opened for continued discussion on the topic of polyamory and racial minorities (including other types of minority status that can affect or can relate to the base topic).
Please remember that this board does have guidelines for appropriate posting. All posters are expected to have read and understood those guidelines before posting and are accountable for any posts that they make which don't meet those guidelines.
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Last edited by LovingRadiance; 12-03-2013 at 06:15 PM. Reason: re-opened thread.
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