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  #11  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:21 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I could be wrong, ok? But here's my thoughts on it....

This specific woman is now out of the picture. Shoo. Fine. Let that part go. Zero in on how to be before his NEXT partner arrives someday.

ISSUE NOW IS:

Your husband has a higher tolerance for X behaviors in his other partners than you do. Although he ultimately will do a "softer" and "slower" let go once he realizes this partner is not for him or worth his time, you prefer he do it "sooner" and "harder" so you can be free of worry/stress or at least REDUCE your stress.

You prefer he be able to recognize (objectionable behavior) sooner as troublesome to the marriage, because while he's free to pick his partners, you are along for the ride here. You don't pick his partners but are affected by their behavior.
  • You are bothered his judgement of people's characters not being as quick on the uptake as you.
  • You would like him to improve on that skill so you can feel emotionally safe and be stress free/lower stress.


COULD DO NEXT: ARTICULATE OBJECTIONABLE BEHAVIORS
Quote:
I have asked him, just what does a person have to do for you to question their ethics and recognize that they are trying to cause trouble, short of a confession that they are trying to do just that? He doesn't know.
Then he could take the time to discern so he can know and be able to articulate.

To me it sounds like you and spouse could make list of objectionable behavior you both agree is "objectionable" then. Take the time to articulate it. It could work for him and for you in dating new people.

Next agree on a number for your hard limit red zone. That many? They are just gone.

Figure out your soft limit "yellow caution" zone number. Potential partner clocks (X) checkmarks -- the one dating that person either works on the skills with them or lets that partner go. Hopefully they improve the skills and things pans out rather than chronic problems.

Pick a number that is "fast enough" to you, but "slow enough" to him that you both can live with for each zone.

You/He could show the potential the list of objectionable behavior before getting involved with him. They agree to play ball, great. They don't? Time and energy saved all around. Win for all.

Examples of objectionable behavior Partner X could do (here I guess from your post):
  • not forthcoming about sexual safety practices and partners?
  • no recent labs shown?
  • temper tantrums rather than (preferred conflict resolution method)?
  • bad mouthing spouse's personality or preferences rather than feedback on behavior done/not done?
  • "fishing" for data?
  • lies?
  • trying to break you up?
  • Other stuff?


Quote:
Is there a word for someone who wants to cling to a positive opinion of someone no matter what they say and do? Even if the person attacks someone you care about?
"Generous to a fault" is the idiom I think you could be after.

Being generous is great, but taking it to the extreme where it hurts self or others -- no so much.

Quote:
I am trying to let go of all this, but I just can't. I feel I need him to recognize what he was dealing with (with her specifically? Or in general?), and he just refuses. This makes me feel very unsafe. you seem to
Perhaps he'd be more willing to work with you if you let specific lady go. So he can feel better with his memories of her how he likes them. She's GONE, so you can afford to drop that part of it.

And instead focus on listing "what objectionable behaviors are" in general for the next partner(s) to come along so you can minimize these hoohas that you don't like in future since you've had this merry-go-round ride before and don't like it? Working together to move it forward?

Then you both get something to feel good about in the short term (he gets to keep his memories, you get a list defined) AND in the long term ( less hoohas for both)?

My 2 cents,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 11-27-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:24 PM
london london is offline
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With condom use and in the absence of an outbreak, the risk to the wife is tiny. She probably weighed up that tiny chance of transmission against discrimination against her based on flawed science and taking that tiny chance won. Again, I'm not saying it is right, if I had a lifelong STD I would disclose, I think, but I can understand the "lesser of two evils" logic.

I don't actually know if I've got hsv. The last test I had was negative, some time ago but the NHS only offer tests in very specific circumstances now. I've never had anything that resembles an outbreak and neither have my last few partners, as far as I know. I can get a test privately, but I really don't see the point. It doesn't make scientific sense for me. I wouldn't change my sexual practices if I did have it. I know my current partner wouldn't want to start using condoms again.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2013, 04:43 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
but I can understand the "lesser of two evils" logic.
Can you just clarify what the two evils are in your mind?
  1. Not getting the sex she wanted
  2. Giving herpes to someone

Are these the two 'evils' we're comparing?
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:11 PM
Norwegianpoly Norwegianpoly is offline
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It is so not ok to be fluent-bonded with (or perhaps even sleep with at all) people who does not practice safe sex and are secretive/not upfront. It is not the first time I hear of people behaving like this. Once a whole network had to do HIV tests due to a women "forgetting to mention" that she had a boyfriend whom she were fluent bonded with, too, and who was not tested and not informed... it was like the worst case scenario of the "Opening up" safer sex chapter. Protect yourself from "teenagers" who only want the fun and not the responsability of an adult.

It is also not ok to bring lots of drama into other relationships. However, I belive one should work on this together. When I finally dropped my "ex", it was partly due to the relation causing my husband to feel angry and stressed out. My husband has had his veto's here and there in regards to him, party due to this drama. Before we embarded on poly, I veto'ed a women who clearly did not know what she was doing, I just sensed that she could potentially give us lots of grief (she claimed to not be interested in my husband, yet started acting jealous of me in public etc.).

If the deal is "everybody decices for themselves", it can not be any fluent bondedness. Period.

Last edited by Norwegianpoly; 11-28-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:24 PM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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GalaGirl, thanks so much for your post, you have some amazing suggestions that I will be discussing with my hubby over the weekend. I am wondering, though, based on what I have written, would you say that my hubby's friend was trying to break us up? You did include that on your list of her dealbreaking behaviors.

I certainly feel she was trying to cause trouble between us, at minimum. I don't think she was a classic "cowgirl" in that she wanted to break us up so she could have a monogamous relationship with him. But do you think someone might ever try to break up a marriage out of sheer spite? That's how it feels to me. To me, when you tell a friend that their spouse is abusing them (because I wasn't supportive of him sleeping with her, I suppose), that is a loaded word and implies that you think the friend should leave the marriage. Maybe that word is unusually loaded for me because I used to counsel battered women. I am not sure.

Would you all mind keeping this on topic and not getting bogged down in STD-related discussion? I think most of us would agree on what sexually responsible behavior for a polyamorist looks like. Thanks so much.

Last edited by scarletzinnia; 11-28-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:31 PM
Norwegianpoly Norwegianpoly is offline
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Of course someone would try to break up a marriage out of sheer spite. It would prove she is incredebly attractive and irresistable.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2013, 05:12 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I have no idea if the ex was trying to break up the marriage or not. I am not there. But it sounds like it could be taken that way.

To me? It doesn't matter going forward if this specific woman was or wasn't. She's an ex now.

If the new focus is both of you creating a tool together to help you and your DH identify objectionable behavior in new potentials/new partners, you may as well put ALL your things on there. Then he (or you) can just go down the list: Does my new person do this? That? Yes? No?

Hopefully in time the tool is no longer needed -- the skills will have grown.

If some future potential (tries to break up marriage) because they are (cowgirl/cowboy, spiteful, nutjob, whatever)? The motivation behind it doesn't matter. Because on the receiving end of the behavior? At least one of you guys would object, right? Bring out the discernment tool! Use it to help you both discern together and come to agreement together that -- yes... that person is doing THESE behaviors. Those are objectionable behaviors. So is it a yellow zone or red zone?

It isn't about evaluations of people's personalities or preferences -- your DH being called "overgenerous" or you being called "controlling" any more. Using the tool is keeping it on evaluation of the behavior done/not done.

You could worry less about being "right about that woman!" and more about being in "right relationship" with your husband. He's here, she's not.

I know it could take some time for you to give yourself permission to get past this ex's behaviors. (Note I don't say over her behavior.)

But you could remind yourself she IS an ex. Yes, some of her behaviors were awful. But the more time between you and her behaviors, the better you will feel. Try to hang in there as the time passes and try to let go of spending too much time trying to answer "Why?" stuff. Why's the blind person not able to see? Because they are blind. Why did the exGF do wacky behavior then? Because she was wacky then. And she is ex NOW.

You seem to want OFF her merry-go-round... so don't climb back on by spending too much of your thinking behavior on her. Think all you need to think, finish thinking, then put it down and lay it aside so you can move past it.

Quote:
That's how it feels to me. To me, when you tell a friend that their spouse is abusing them (because I wasn't supportive of him sleeping with her, I suppose), that is a loaded word and implies that you think the friend should leave the marriage. Maybe that word is unusually loaded for me because I used to counsel battered women. I am not sure.
That bit? Before you run down the road with it, you could pause to check for the outcome.

If she's calling you "abusive" and you are actually doing abusive behaviors -- fair enough.
  • She could call appropriate offices to report it rather than tell friends.
  • She could offer DH shelter, help.

She doesn't though, does she?

If she's calling you "abusive" to play the "changing spotlight" game?
  • Make it be about examining YOUR behaviors?
  • Get you and DH riled/up distracted in dealing with YOUR emotions?

What's the result?
  • Nobody is examining HER behaviors too closely now. People busy elsewhere. Teflon kid slides again.


Since DH dumped her? I'm going to go with Teflon kid games. Avoidy dance. Not being responsive and not helping to have constructive conversation to sort whatever out.

You could improve your interpersonal skills to spot that game and put the brakes on your emotions and keep the focus on behavior done/not done.

So could DH. Maybe "spotlight game" is something to put on your list? Because anyone blocking clear, honest, constructive communication is not HELPING anything.

Hang in there! Talk to your spouse and sort yourselves out.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 11-29-2013 at 04:01 AM.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2013, 06:40 PM
london london is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post
Can you just clarify what the two evils are in your mind?
  1. Not getting the sex she wanted
  2. Giving herpes to someone

Are these the two 'evils' we're comparing?
1. The tiny chance of giving someone herpes.
2. Being discriminated against due to incorrect beliefs about herpes.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2013, 11:58 PM
scarletzinnia scarletzinnia is offline
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Ok, I swore I wasn't going to do this but it is just too ridiculous to not comment on.

So London, let me get this straight. By your logic, my husband had no right to change his mind about having sex with his friend because she has a incurable STD, because by doing so, he was "discriminating" against her.

So you are saying that my husband has no sexual agency, that he is obligated to sleep with any woman who wants him, no matter what the risks to his health could be.

Tell me, have you yourself knowingly started a sexual relationship with a person with genital herpes? How about HIV? If not, why not?
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  #20  
Old 11-29-2013, 06:29 AM
london london is offline
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It's very difficult to catch herpes. People who have a basic understanding of science know this. So yes, I would have sex with someone who had herpes. After all, its a virus that the vast majority of people will end up with like genital warts. I use condoms with all new partners, transmission when there is no outbreak is incredibly low anyway. I would fluid bond with someone who tested positive for herpes after some time.

HIV is also very difficult to catch. I would have a partner with HIV but I would take simple precautions during sex such as condoms, lube and ensuring that their CD4 and viral load stay in a healthy range. People who stay healthy are less likely to pass on the virus. Can you believe that there are HIV positive women who are married, fluid bonded and have kids with men who are HIV negative?

So basically OP, no, I don't discriminate against people with lifelong STDs because I understand science. I know that understanding something based on fact rather than what your mates told you is a ridiculous concept to you, but really, education rocks, man.

Last edited by london; 11-29-2013 at 06:33 AM.
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