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  #21  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:22 PM
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JadeDoor JadeDoor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post

Here's another option: See this as a man who is hurting rather than viewing him as some patriarchal goon 'telling you what to do.' Most people wouldn't agree to their spouse sleeping with someone else in the first place. Most wouldn't even agree to TRY. Let alone sleep with their sibling.
I agree with you and I have tried to view it that way. What I don't understand is WHY he's hurting when this was something that was acceptable a couple months ago. Now that Mark and I are involved and it's complicated and hearts will be broken, Neverwhere wants me to magically decide on my own that I don't want to date Mark anymore.


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Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post
But what it boils down to is this: it's causing a great deal of harm in YOUR marriage, regardless of what is normal. What I'm trying to tell you is, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks is normal, because they're not the ones who are going to have to face the fallout, either way. YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND AND YOUR CHILDREN are the ones who will have to live with the consequences, not any of us strangers on a forum.
Our marriage history makes me feel more stubborn about this. I feel like for four years and I gave and gave and got nothing in return. It's only been in this past year that Neverwhere started to give back too and participate in our marriage. And he'd be the first one to admit that to you. There was an affair when I was pregnant, verbal abuse, physical intimidation, a drug and alcohol history... all of which we worked on in therapy and got through but ... I am still resentful at times and I guess I feel like this is just one more decision being forced upon me.
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--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post

In my opinion, he needs to leave. He's tried to get ok with you dating his brother, but he can't. He's asked you to stop dating his brother, but you don't want to, and it's not his right to force you. So, if he doesn't like the situation he's in, he needs to leave it.

We don't get to control the behaviours of others. We only get to control our own behaviours. He has 4 choices for his own behaviour:
  1. get ok with it
  2. leave
  3. stay without liking it, but stop making a fuss about it
  4. stay without liking it, and keep making a fuss about it

Making you leave Mark is not on his list of options. So far he's been choosing 4. It is his perogative to keep doing that until he drives you away, but it won't be pretty. While it's true that leaving Mark is on your list of options, that's not at all up to Nevermore and he has to stop thinking it is.

You seem firm that you don't want to choose. So it's up to you to show him that you're resolute, that you are NOT going to make that choice, and that you want him to stop asking for it IMMEDIATELY because it's disrespectful and hurtful and manipulative. In other words, stop letting him believe that making you choose is actually on his list of potential behaviours.

Every time you come here and try to find any other way out, you're sending him the message that he just has to try harder, find the right angle, push just your right buttons, and eventually you'll give in. Let him know that it ain't gonna happen and if he really feels that the situation he's in has got to end, then it's his responsibility to end it by walking away. Period.
This is ultimately how I feel but I don't know if I have the strength to stick with it. I don't want to lose my husband. I love him. He knows Mark is NOT his replacement and even Mark knows that we don't have the same connection that Neverwhere and I do. But Mark would also never make me choose. He has not ONCE said that my husband was being a jerk and I should just leave. He has stayed neutral and refused to tell me about conversations he's had with neverwhere about this and has not tried to sway me one way or the other.

I hate feeling forced into things. It's how I've lived my whole life and I'm so sick of it.
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--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:01 PM
Spock Spock is offline
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What happens if you drop Mark?

Will Neverwhere live happily ever after with you? Will you be devastated?

What happens if you drop Neverwhere? Will Mark happily raise the kids? Will you be devastated?

What happens if Neverwhere drops you?

You state you don't want to lose your husband and you love him, and you say the same thing about Mark.

It's easy for Mark to not make any ultimatums because he really doesn't have any leverage. I'm not sure it's honest to say he wouldn't make you choose, because you haven't placed him in that kind of situation.

That aside, it sounds like you want the situation where Neverwhere and Mark get along.

Well, then the only real solution is for Mark to make it a point to try to resolve his situation with Neverwhere. They are, after all, brothers. It's always in his capacity to work with Neverwhere to share; it's how brothers have to act their whole lives (until they get so tired of it that they move away, at least).

I mean, is that even on the table? You say Mark doesn't tell you about their conversations. I can't tell you why Neverwhere is hurting, he has to be the one to do it. I can't tell you why he and Mark can't get along; Mark can (or, if he isn't sure, he can figure it out).

I'm sorry I diverted the conversation about incest and taboo, it's really tertiary at this point. There's only two places you can look:

1) Mark-Neverwhere
2) You-Neverwhere
3) Neverwhere

Maybe it really is the fact that he is uncomfortable. Medication does in fact change your perceptions and personality.
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:38 PM
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JadeDoor JadeDoor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
What happens if you drop Mark?

Will Neverwhere live happily ever after with you? Will you be devastated?
I'm thinking I would be very resentful and angry but it would eventually be repaired. Maybe. Though I have no doubt my husband would take every opportunity during any argument to remind me that I slept with his brother. This is how he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
What happens if you drop Neverwhere? Will Mark happily raise the kids? Will you be devastated?

What happens if Neverwhere drops you?
I would NOT ask Mark to help me raise my kids. And Neverwhere's kids. That would be the end of any hope at a coparenting relationship with Neverwhere. His ex already pulled that on him, hence why he and Mark have issues to work out. They cheated many years ago. Nevewhere and Mark worked it out, but it obviously must make Nevewhere feel inferior to his brother or something. Which is why it was so complicated when Mark and I got together. Amanda, the ex wife, was really mad about it and tried telling Neverwhere it was the same thing that she and Mark did. Neverwhere set her straight and said this was with his permission. Confusion.

I'd be devestated to lose mark or nevewhere, but more so neverwhere if I HAD to say one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
That aside, it sounds like you want the situation where Neverwhere and Mark get along.

Well, then the only real solution is for Mark to make it a point to try to resolve his situation with Neverwhere. They are, after all, brothers. It's always in his capacity to work with Neverwhere to share; it's how brothers have to act their whole lives (until they get so tired of it that they move away, at least).
We have a family counselor I feel they should see together. Mark is willing. I don't know if Neverwhere is.


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Originally Posted by Spock View Post
Maybe it really is the fact that he is uncomfortable. Medication does in fact change your perceptions and personality.
He's not on meds. He tried one, didn't like the sexual side effects, and quit. He just went for craniosacral therapy today and got a few herbal remedies to try. Hoping that helps his mind to stop racing all the time.
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--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:40 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JadeDoor View Post
Our marriage history makes me feel more stubborn about this. I feel like for four years and I gave and gave and got nothing in return. It's only been in this past year that Neverwhere started to give back too and participate in our marriage. And he'd be the first one to admit that to you. There was an affair when I was pregnant, verbal abuse, physical intimidation, a drug and alcohol history... all of which we worked on in therapy and got through but ... I am still resentful at times and I guess I feel like this is just one more decision being forced upon me.
Whoa, back up! Red Fags here! There is no "got through" with spousal abuse and substance abuse, it is a constant ongoing struggle. It's very easy to slip back into bad habits of the past when things get stressful or we are felling insecure and out of control. Sounds like you guys need back into counseling ASAP. Deal with these aspects now before it get worse.
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:42 PM
Spock Spock is offline
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Wait, what? Mark cheated on Neverwhere with Amanda?

So Mark has in fact done this before, except this time it's not cheating?
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
Wait, what? Mark cheated on Neverwhere with Amanda?

So Mark has in fact done this before, except this time it's not cheating?
Yes, that is what happened. My husband and Amanda were married 10 years. Neverwhere had a drinking problem from before then. He and Amanda both had drug issues. Mark would frequently be out searching for Neverwhere at local bars and reporting back to Amanda if he could or couldn't find him.

This is something he avoided doing with me. He didn't want ot make the same mistakes he had already so as a result he and I never leaned on each other for much. We had a friendship but that was really it. I think I could count on one hand the number of times we hung out alone together.

I didn't even want to express an interest in Mark because of this history but my husband guessed at it. It was really tense and in the end when he agreed to it and seemed so happy for a while I really thought it would be okay. But then Amanda broke up with him and his current gf found it weird that Mark and I are dating... we've always had to keep it a secret and not tell anyone they work with or any mutual friends, etc. I think the outside pressure is too much for Neverwhere and he's afraid of looking foolish to the outside world, like I tricked him or something. I get it. But I wish he'd never agreed to us dating in the first place....
__________________
--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:51 PM
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JadeDoor JadeDoor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
Whoa, back up! Red Fags here! There is no "got through" with spousal abuse and substance abuse, it is a constant ongoing struggle. It's very easy to slip back into bad habits of the past when things get stressful or we are felling insecure and out of control. Sounds like you guys need back into counseling ASAP. Deal with these aspects now before it get worse.
We have a weekly counselor meeting. Sometimes Neverwhere goes and sometimes he says he doesn't need it. I think he should go every week, whether it's with me or by himself or with Mark or whatever.
__________________
--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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  #29  
Old 11-19-2013, 12:10 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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In our poly agreement, siblings are a no no.
BUT-I still stand by what I wrote before.
The bottomline is each individual only gets to chiose for themself.

I am sahm and home school.
When dh tried to force me to dump bf-I respectfully refused. He moved out. But the bottomline was that he cant make those choices for me. He CAN leave. He cant make me do anything.
The reverse is true.
He considered (seriously) dating someone who was abusive towards me. I refused to have contact with her.
I couldnt tell him he couodnt date her. But i could. Hoose to remove myself from contact with her. That meant less contact between him and I OR he could choose less contact with her in order to avoid losing time with me.

You can choose to not accept the continued battle of the wills. Say no and allow him the freedom to decide where he is going from there.
But you cant. Hange his mind and he cant force your hand.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2013, 02:49 AM
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JadeDoor JadeDoor is offline
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Well I told him I won't choose and we had a huge fight that ended with me shoved up against a wall. so.....I have no self respect if I try to work this out anyway.
__________________
--Jade, 31yo single f
Neverwhere - soon-to-be-ex-husband. We have a 4yo son together.
Amanda - Neverwhere's 1st wife and one of the reasons my marriage to him ended. She lives with him.
Mark - Neverwhere's brother and my roommate
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