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  #31  
Old 11-07-2013, 12:32 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post

And these will be no-PIV trips, but the batch of trips after that might be PIV's? Are you personally hoping that'll be permitted soon? Like, real soon, or what? a month? a year? Do you think you'll ever need it to be permitted?
Kevin, in light of the conversation about ownership, I think permission to fuck is the wrong word/concept to use.

And what position to fuck in...

The way I see it, it's more about loving more than one, and what that means for her life in general. Sharing sex is one aspect of love, but not the only one. The emotional entanglement has more of an impact, I'd say, than this or that place your genitals go on your lover's body. Heck, in some ways, oral sex is more intimate than penis in vagina, imo.

I think her husband is still coming to terms with the concept of loving more than one, no matter what she and these potentials do sexually, as shown by his "Aren't I enough for you?" questions.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2013, 05:01 AM
PolyMC PolyMC is offline
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At this point in time, I'm going to enjoy the upcoming visit at the end of the year for what it is...spending the New Year holiday with "M" and our mutual friends (I'm staying at the friends' house, not with "M"). Even if it turns out that we discover we both have feelings for each other (hey a girl can dream can't she), I wouldn't want us to rush into anything too physical right away at the risk of ruining a really close friendship of a few years in one fell swoop.

"A" is a little hard to read at the moment...sometimes I think he's finally coming around to accepting that this changes nothing between us except the exclusivity. Then just a little while later he'll get all morose saying he doesn't want our marriage to end. I totally get that he's confused and I'm doing everything I can to help him through it before there is any perceived threat (aka the "visits") imminent. He has emphatically stated that he doesn't want to be sharing a household with any metamours (heh, don't even get me started on THAT term...he refuses to acknowledge ANY sort of relationship to either "M" or "T" and has asked me to stop using that word) -- that thought never even crossed my mind as even a remote possibility. Neither "M" nor "T" would ever consider dual citizenship or even becoming an ex-pat, nor would I -- we're all a bit set in our respective "middle age" ways.

"A" is also having a hard time understanding how I could divide my love among three (or more) men. In his mono-oriented mind, all humans have a finite capacity for love, and he'd rather have my entire allotment devoted to him than to have to give up any part of his portion to "M" or "T" (or anyone else who might come along later on, God forbid). He sees my growing relationships outside the marriage making his portion grow smaller and smaller, fearing that eventually another metamour's "allotted portion" grows bigger until "A" is out of the picture entirely. I've tried to tell him that that's not how I'm wired, but he can't get past his understanding of love. It may all just come down to a matter of how much trust there is between us (at least that's my hope).

Last edited by PolyMC; 11-08-2013 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Because if I'm going to learn new poly terms like "metamour" I should learn to spell them correctly!
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2013, 12:58 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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My husband hated the word "metamour." It sounds like your husband prefers a DADT model. Your husband might never understand. You have two different views of relationship structures, and they are conflicting.

You have to realise this is a massive change for him, and this is not what he signed up for. Yes, people change, and change is a beautiful thing. With this new territory, there are things that he has to be okay with now that he never envisioned. You being gone for days or weeks with these other men, sleeping alone, comforting you if you are upset behind one of them (my friend calls it being an emotional tampon), possibly sharing holidays or birthday celebrations with them, you being intimate with them, and if you decide to be out, that means he will be outed as being part of a poly marriage. People can be negative and judgemental of the mono partners in these situations, and it is unfortunate. None of these things were part of what he saw in his future with you. He is probably feeling uncertain, inadequate, and wondering when or if he will get replaced and pushed out of your heart. It is a scary place to be. He is grieving for the loss of what your marriage used to be, and it is like a death. It is the death of something old and the birth of something new and possibly unwanted by him: a poly marriage. Just like when a loved one passes, he has to go through the stages of grief. Giving him time is your best bet.

It is going to take awhile for him to "get his bearings" per se. I would suggest seeking a poly-friendly therapist. They are not the easiest to find, but if you find a decent one, who can see things from both sides of the spectrum, it might help with this transition. I would encourage your husband to join here, too. Maybe he can ask questions that he is afraid to ask you or just have a place to seek support

YouAreHere has a really good blog Her Blog. Her boyfriend is poly, and she is mono. She details some of the things that cross her mind and some of the issues surrounding being the mono partner. It makes for an excellent read, and it goes to show that mono partners and spouses have their high days and low days.

I hope you start a blog, too. It can be cathartic to write out whatever you are feeling.
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  #34  
Old 11-15-2013, 05:42 AM
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Re: love, scarcity, and abundance ... it's really rather simple. Traditional monogamists believe that the supply of romantic love is finite, but polyamorists believe that the supply of romantic love is infinite. If A can at least consider the poly way of viewing this, it might take him one small step closer towards making peace with polyamory. If he can't then alas you'll have to try to agree to disagree, and then just reassure him through your expressions of loving words and loving actions. Anytime he can state his needs to you, that would probably also help. At the least, it'd give you a better idea of whether to share or separate paths in life.

Do grant A that time is *not* an infinite resource, certainly not for mortals, so yes you are asking him to sacrifice something a monogamist paired with another monogamist (assuming there's no affairs) never has to sacrifice: part of their partner's extracurricular time allotment. So you should show A appreciation for that sacrifice that he's making for you.

Re: FullofLove1052's post ... good stuff; good info; good perspective. Take her advice to heart and you'll do well.

Regards,
Kevin T.

P.S. My basic views on PIV can be found where I posted on October 29. Anyone is welcome to review that if it will ease any misunderstandings. I posted again so as to clarify on November 4. Again, welcome for review there, it speaks for itself.

In hopes of better, more complete clarification: It's quite easy for me to imagine why many people get more pleasure/intimacy from oral favors than from PIV.

To explain myself: I don't think A owns PolyMC at all, even if he feels/wishes/thinks he does. Any "permission" solicited of him would be pure indulgence on PolyMC's part (to ease his possible feelings of everything he ever knew or was taught falling apart on him). Don't need permission, don't even need an agreement. You make your choices and if your relationship with A still weathers his own storm then great. Obviously he needs to learn to trust you.

I'm all about the emotional landscape at hand and have no problem agreeing to addressing that before bothering with sex, and to the reality that sex often has no part in a particular poly relationship. Usually romance does, but some even disagree with that (which is too semantic for my blood but that's way off-topic). I certainly get that the emotional obstacles are the crux of the problem for PolyMC (and A).

It seems to me that PIV has been discussed at length in this thread already, so if we're now moving past it (and PolyMC is too), then I'll belabor it no further. If someone has further questions I should answer about it, let me know and I'll do my best.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:02 PM
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Have you spoken to your husband about time constraints? kdt26417 brings up a good point; love is infinite, but the time in which to express said love is finite.

There's a lot of talk about boundaries and agreements; well, one boundary and one agreement you entered into was monogamy and commitment, and now the difficulty is that you want to change that boundary and agreement.

You're married, and the cornerstone of that arrangement is one husband, one wife, for a lifetime. That's not a defense, nor an attack, that's just the reality of how you and your husband started this adventure together.

So the question to solve is how do you change the arrangement and reset the boundaries without losing your husband? Tolerate is one way to think of it; what will he tolerate, and what will he himself accept, and what can he himself do? This thread has mostly been about your wants/needs and your relationship with your husband.

He hasn't had a chance to chime in, so it's all hearsay. Is he fulfilled in your relationship? I know in mine I was, but part of it is that I chose to dedicate all my attention, that might normally be spread amongst friends, family, lovers (aka, the polyfamily/tribe) towards my wife (Please, on this forum).

It wasn't wrong or right, it was just what I did. It got more intense after my dad died because my tribe shrank, and after my brother moved to Texas because he had his own life to live too.

This forum has helped (a crutch, maybe) because now I have in the last 24 hours read/written/seen a dozen other people like me, or like my wife, and I don't have to be alone in my emotions.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:06 PM
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Thanks for that "bit of logic" my friend; ; I like it.

Re:
Quote:
"There's a lot of talk about boundaries and agreements; well, one boundary and one agreement you entered into was monogamy and commitment, and now the difficulty is that you want to change that boundary and agreement."
True! True. Yet another sacrifice A deserves credit for.

Re:
Quote:
"Is he fulfilled in your relationship?"
That is to say, is he fulfilled in it *per se;* that is, when not counting the M and T factor. Were M and T "stripped away" from the equation, could A at least then honestly say that he was truly fulfilled in his relationship with you?

No owie intended; purely wondering.
Regards,
Kevin T.
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  #37  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:02 AM
PolyMC PolyMC is offline
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Lots more to think about indeed (and not to worry, I don't feel attacked or berated)...

When I first realized I was wired as a poly I was already 7 years into my second marriage (with "A"). I'll admit that my discovery had been spawned by a severe disparity in our sex drives...I've been told that I'm "insatiable" for as long as I can remember..."A" not so much as he hadn't had a lot of experience with women, and we met a year after his first marriage of 14 years ended. He can go for weeks, sometimes months without. When he got a second job a couple of years ago, it was mostly night shift so there's been even less time that we spent together, although we've been making a conscious effort lately to spend more quality time together on his days off.

One of the first things I struggled with once I realized that I was a poly is that I had made a lifetime commitment to "A", which included monogomy in the vows ("forsaking all others"). Neither one of us wants to end the marriage--we both believe in our bond and there is very little, if anything, that could break it. Part of what's helping him to cope with the situation is that both "M" and "T" would be, at best, long-distance relationships in which we'd only be in each others' presence a couple of times a year. So while there isn't an imminent trip in the next few days, he can almost be in denial about the whole thing (he's definitely in the DADT category). Also, I have yet to "act on" my desires with either "M" or "T" -- I know that "A" really appreciates that we're discussing all this beforehand so that he's not also dealing with a sense of betrayal had this happened after the fact. And I'm still at a point where if he is completely insistent that this can't happen, I can remain living as a mono and none of the men would be hurt.

So in a nutshell, I guess that we're still in discussions about relaxing the "sexual exclusivity" element of our marriage (nothing else would change). And in answer to the latest questions, "A" has told me that I fulfill everything he needs and he has no desire to make any "special" friendships outside the marriage. Maybe because he had always expected that I felt the same, this is all throwing him a real curve ball. I would have liked to disclose this to him early on, but I didn't even know for sure myself until quite recently. (In my early adulthood and between marriages, I was something of a "serial monogomist".)

Another question I've been pondering lately: does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one (despite everything that a strict religious upbringing has taught you about the way relationships *should* be)?

As far as time constraints go, we pretty much have until Christmas to come to some sort of agreement as the trip to visit "M" and friends is shortly after that. And "A" understands and accepts that any "veto power" he might have in the beginning of (or before) an outside relationship is no longer valid once the outside relationship has begun in full force...but I'm nowhere near to that point yet. "A" is somewhat comforted by the fact that "M" has not shown any reciprocal interest as of yet...and there's nothing indicating that would change on this upcoming trip.
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:31 AM
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Emm Emm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolyMC View Post
Another question I've been pondering lately: does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one (despite everything that a strict religious upbringing has taught you about the way relationships *should* be)?
This thread recently discussed just that question. The answer seems to be a resounding "Yes".
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  #39  
Old 11-17-2013, 02:31 AM
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Hi PolyMC,

I can see the difficulties with the disparities in "amount of libido" in you versus A; just one of the reasons why poly might be helpful to you, perhaps.

I understand that you and A are kind of in limbo at the moment as to how well you can agree to this poly thing: DADT and LDR and many other factors. You just do the best you can do, and focus on the here and now.

Re:
Quote:
"I guess that we're still in discussions about relaxing the 'sexual exclusivity' element of our marriage (nothing else would change)."
Ah ... and what of the "emotional/romantic exclusivity" element? (Not trying to poke you here; just curious.)

Interesting; sounds like if the "poly question" were removed from the equation, A would be happy as a clam in the relationship he has with you. That's actually a good sign!

Re:
Quote:
"Does anyone ever really *know* that they have a poly mindset before they suddenly find themselves, as I did, in a situation where you realize that you truly romantically love more than one?"
In my poly forum experience, it really varies from person to person. Some people "decide that they're poly first," and then look for (a) poly partner/s. But it's possibly *slightly* more common (okay but given the Choosing Polyamory Before Identifying a Second Lover? thread, my jury's out) for people to say, "Uh-oh, I'm in love with a married person, now what do I do," or something like that, and then (often with the help of Google and whatnot), discover that "polyamory" is the "emotion" that they're "experiencing." This is often because people just don't hear about poly until they're "up against the wall."

As polyamory becomes more widely-known, and a part of mainstream culture, I'm sure more and more people will decide they'd like to live polyamously first, before they set out to implement the desire. Which seems to be a good thing.

Such is my perspective for what it's worth.

Regards,
Kevin T.
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