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  #11  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:20 AM
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Emm Emm is offline
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Not all poly relationships involve group sex.
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emm View Post
Not all poly relationships involve group sex.
Yeah I am poly and have never had group sex nor do I want to.
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  #13  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Spock View Post
That aside, about the incest: Mark and Neverwhere cannot have sex simultaneously with you without there being an incestuous atmosphere. Perhaps you've never considered that as a possibility? I know I'm not interested in my brother's sex life.
. . . though it's unclear what "simultaneously" means here.

It might mean group sex - a specific set of acts in which all three participate together. As noted, that need not be the case in a poly relationship.

Or it might mean that she is a sexual partner to each the two brothers in the same general time period.

To call that incestuous might make sense in terms of traditional patriarchy, especially in keeping with the myth of female purity: the two brothers could be seen as engaging in an incestuous act only on the basis of the notion that one comes into contact with some kind of impurity or residue left behind by the other.

But that's really just bad metaphysics.

There is no such impurity or residue or essence or whatever.
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:49 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by JadeDoor View Post
He said it's a taboo he just can't get past and that I'm having an incestuous affair.
An incestuous affair would be you dating your own brother.

In our culture (being western society), polyamory is taboo anyway, so the question of whether dating his brother is "more taboo" is kinda ridiculous. Taboo is taboo.

Our culture validates the fantasy of a guy having a threesome with a set of hot twins. So ignoring patriarchy, you're within cultural norms regarding incest.

If we lived in a place and time where non-monogamy was widely accepted, then our culture would have a different set of taboos about with whom you ought and ought not to have relations. But that's moot because we're not lucky enough to live in such a culture.

Taboo is culture-specific, but there are places where it is customary for sisters to be married off to the same man. There are other cultures where when a man dies, his next eldest brother must marry his widows to make sure they are provided for and so that their wealth stays in the family.

Quote:
What's "too strange" "too much of a taboo" "crossing boundaries" in poly? Neverwhere suggested talking to more seasoned poly people to see if maybe it's just a hang up of his.
If you're looking for us to be The Authority and tell you What is Right and What is Wrong, you're not going to find it. If you do, be highly suspicious.

There is no universal "too strange" "too much of a taboo" "crossing boundaries" in poly. It's all about what works for the people involved.

Clearly, you dating his brother does not work for your husband.

In my opinion, he needs to leave. He's tried to get ok with you dating his brother, but he can't. He's asked you to stop dating his brother, but you don't want to, and it's not his right to force you. So, if he doesn't like the situation he's in, he needs to leave it.

We don't get to control the behaviours of others. We only get to control our own behaviours. He has 4 choices for his own behaviour:
  1. get ok with it
  2. leave
  3. stay without liking it, but stop making a fuss about it
  4. stay without liking it, and keep making a fuss about it

Making you leave Mark is not on his list of options. So far he's been choosing 4. It is his perogative to keep doing that until he drives you away, but it won't be pretty. While it's true that leaving Mark is on your list of options, that's not at all up to Nevermore and he has to stop thinking it is.

You seem firm that you don't want to choose. So it's up to you to show him that you're resolute, that you are NOT going to make that choice, and that you want him to stop asking for it IMMEDIATELY because it's disrespectful and hurtful and manipulative. In other words, stop letting him believe that making you choose is actually on his list of potential behaviours.

Every time you come here and try to find any other way out, you're sending him the message that he just has to try harder, find the right angle, push just your right buttons, and eventually you'll give in. Let him know that it ain't gonna happen and if he really feels that the situation he's in has got to end, then it's his responsibility to end it by walking away. Period.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 11-17-2013 at 01:52 AM.
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:05 AM
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Sex at Dawn is a good read that explores what is "normal".
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JadeDoor View Post
my thread about my husband's gf breaking up with him and him wanting to be mono again can be found here:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58188

Brief synopsis is that we worked that out and are still practicing poly but he has a huge issue with me dating his brother, which I've been doing since July. Today it came to a head again and he told me I have to choose. He said it's a taboo he just can't get past and that I'm having an incestuous affair.

On Thursday my counselor saw just me and we discussed all this. She said what many of you said, that I shouldn't break up with Mark because I will be resentful. She said I need to work on being a thermostat and not a thermometer. With my anxiety and codependency I get really stressed out by others moods and issues.

So my question is a difficult one. ... What's "too strange" "too much of a taboo" "crossing boundaries" in poly? Neverwhere suggested talking to more seasoned poly people to see if maybe it's just a hang up of his. Personally I think he and his brother have issues from the past they need to work out. I got the impression that our kind of made up family unit is unique but not dysfunctional in poly life. Am I wrong? Have I crossed a line and this is just too much for my husband to deal with? Do I let him keep trying or do I give up? ?
I can't answer your question about what is normal in poly, but seriously, it's only incestuous if the two brothers have sex; not if you do. You are not related to either of them by blood.
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2013, 07:39 PM
Nadya Nadya is offline
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The relationship of a woman and her brother-in-law can be seen as incestuous. From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Incest is sexual activity between family members and close relatives. This may include sexual activity between people in a consangueous relationship (blood relations), or related by affinity, such as members of the same household, step relatives, those related by adoption or marriage, or members of the same clan or lineage.
Incest is a widely spread taboo, and considered so more often than polyamory, for instance. I can understand the point that this is "more taboo" than poly itself.

I see these things so that everyone needs to find out their own limits and boundaries. Of course the law of each state and country puts some lines in place, but still everyone needs to figure out what is right and wrong for themselves - even within the boundaries of the law.

There are many debatable questions, and this kind of a relationship is one of those (is it really incestuous? is it wrong?). I see this as Neverwhere's inner struggle. He needs to define to himself what he actually thinks; if he is willing to continue breaking this particular taboo or not. As I see it, there really is nothing anyone else can do.

Breaking a taboo is hard - I dare to say that every poly person has encountered some of those hardships. Breaking a taboo can work, if you believe strongly that the thing you are doing is right and that the societal approval is not necessary to you.
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:20 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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It's really beside the point what is 'normal.' This is YOUR marriage, YOUR husband, HIS reactions and feelings. Not anybody else's.

Your husband wasn't thrilled about you dating his brother in the first place. He tried to be. He still isn't. I don't really foresee a future where he's suddenly going to be at peace with this.

So, go ahead, stand up for your right to do whatever you want, but it sure looks like you'll be doing it on your own in the future, so do you have a job? Do you have an explanation ready for your kids when the divorce rolls around?
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post
It's really beside the point what is 'normal.' This is YOUR marriage, YOUR husband, HIS reactions and feelings. Not anybody else's.

Your husband wasn't thrilled about you dating his brother in the first place. He tried to be. He still isn't. I don't really foresee a future where he's suddenly going to be at peace with this.

So, go ahead, stand up for your right to do whatever you want, but it sure looks like you'll be doing it on your own in the future, so do you have a job? Do you have an explanation ready for your kids when the divorce rolls around?
No I don't have a job. I home school my kids. So yea I have no options but to give in and do what I'm told.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2013, 07:12 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JadeDoor View Post
No I don't have a job. I home school my kids. So yea I have no options but to give in and do what I'm told.
You have plenty of options. Change the schooling situation. Start a part time job. Or a full time job.

Here's another option: See this as a man who is hurting rather than viewing him as some patriarchal goon 'telling you what to do.' Most people wouldn't agree to their spouse sleeping with someone else in the first place. Most wouldn't even agree to TRY. Let alone sleep with their sibling.

You know, we're not islands. Our actions affect other people. And every time they have a reaction or an emotion, it's not about trying to 'control' someone else. Sometimes, it's an actual emotion. And frankly, I don't think there's anything abnormal about not wanting your spouse sleeping with your sibling.

Go to an average mother's forum or marriage forum or almost any other forum other than poly or open marriage and ask there if it's 'normal' to be sleeping with your husband's brother, and you'll find a very different response from what you get here.

But what it boils down to is this: it's causing a great deal of harm in YOUR marriage, regardless of what is normal. What I'm trying to tell you is, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks is normal, because they're not the ones who are going to have to face the fallout, either way. YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND AND YOUR CHILDREN are the ones who will have to live with the consequences, not any of us strangers on a forum.
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