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  #141  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:35 PM
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I've been away from awhile from these forums so I'm going to answer all of your posts Kevin in two posts, sorry for the length of them!~ ^_^


Kevin, "In all fairness, I can tell that ColorsWolf isn't advocating 100% nudity all the time, just nudity when the mood strikes for whatever reason. On the other hand, what about those of us for whom the mood *never* strikes? Is that proof that we're brainwashed, thus obligating us to "force" ourselves to be in the "mood" at times (especially when out in a common public area)? and even assuming that, how are we supposed to determine when it would be appropriate to force ourselves to be in the mood? Since we're (purportedly) brainwashed, our judgment in that regard is (by definition) quite hobbled."


O.o I said "when practical".~ Although there is no justifiable legal reason "not" to go without clothing when ever you feel like it unless the possibility of danger is present, the mere state of being "without clothing" is not a justifiable reason to negate itself as it is simply as state of being and is not harmful to any one or any thing in of itself: any who claim "harm" citing the opposite are the cause of their own "harm".~

I also have no idea what you mean by the paragraph of your's mentioned above about "forcing one's self to be in the mood".~

I did not set a "draw the line between total nudity or totally clothed", you did.~

I advocate not wearing clothes when logical and practical, while eliminating unhealthy concepts such as "shame", that's it.~


Kevin, "Re: a country where the people who live there believe wiping themselves with dry paper is making themselves "clean" ... uh yeah
well, I'd really only say "guilty as charged" on the basis of the given
definition of the word "clean." I don't love toilet paper as a solution to the "not clean" problem, but since it's really all I have available I kind of have no choice but to do the best I can with it and then carry on with life's many other affairs. (And I reeeally try to make the best of it, let me tell ya ...)"


Wrong, you always have a choice.~ You've just convinced yourself that you don't.~

I also use toilet paper, but I wash that area of myself with soap and water afterwards just like any other part of my body: it's really not that hard nor time-consuming when you have a level water dispenser next to the toilet like a bath tub.~

This is why I view Americans as filthy when it comes to using toilets and the French as slightly cleaner because of their access to and use of bidets (sinks the same height of and next to a toilet).~

You don't need to be "rich" in any sense of the word to have one, they sell plastic attachments for toilets.~

Or you could just use a bathtub next a toilet after you wipe with "paper", just get some soap, sit on the side of the bathtub, put your butt under the part where the water comes out of, and wash away: drying yourself is no different than drying yourself after a shower as you are now "actually" clean, some thing sadly uncommon among Americans.~

If you are, please stop implying that I have said some thing applies to "self-hatred" when it I didn't say it had any thing to do with "self-hatred" like using the toilet, it feels like you are being bitterly hateful and mocking every thing I have said making it seem as if every thing I say is a big joke that no one should ever take seriously.~

Sorry if I misinterpreted your humor, but it does seem like you are referring to me and it feels rather hurtful.~


Japan actually has invented one of this planet's most technologically advanced toilets: it can even wash your butt with soap mixed into water and has a built-in drier so you never have to use toilet paper, it has countless other features to such as a seat-warmer and it even talks to you!~ ^_^

Although, I myself prefer a creature, preferably a plant-like creature, like seen in a sci-fi TV series I used to watch, only it was actually more like the insides of a giant biologically living insect space-ship, a 'toilet' that is actually a mouth you sit upon and secrete your secretions and the mouth consumes every thing you make, uses a giant tongue to lick you clean, and its' saliva acts like anti-bacterial and disinfectant cleansing soapy water at the same time.~ There is actually a living real plant that does this for rodents, it resembles a Venus Fly Trap, but it just eats the secretions and doesn't have all those above mentioned features.~

On the subject of "not wearing clothes" and "murderers":

In many of our societies we have agreed to not kill each other as we have more or less agreed that doing so causes more problems than it solves.~


"Not wearing clothing" is actually our natural state and it is unavoidable in many cases, it causes no harm to any one in of itself (any one who claims otherwise is the cause of their own harm trying to shift the blame on some one else), trying to mentally "force" us to "hate ourselves" into wearing clothing causes more problems than it solves, and actually wearing clothing when it is not practical can be deadly in cases of heat-stroke as wearing clothing inhibits the Human body's ability to sweat which is one of the most efficient ways of dissipating heat more so than most species' of this planet abilities to get rid of heat from their bodies.~

When it comes to "murderers", these people are by no means "unnatural", in fact it is in our very nature to do all these things: harm, kill, rape, steal, and lie.~

As in nature, these things are not crimes outside our "societies", if we even live in one: we harm or we kill for many reasons: to eat, to prove our strength, to claim territory, or just to survive, etc.; we either convince or we force others to mate with us to continue the survival of our genetic material; we take what we can to survive; and we may "say things but do another or the opposite of what we said or indicated" as a strategy to accomplish our goals.~

Not all of our Human societies ban these things or they may only ban these things within our own society but have no problems with us doing these things to other people in other societies: like tribes vs. tribes.~ As always, no one is forcing you to stay in any society, you may move to another that more fits your way of life or you may not live in any society at all and do as you please.~

Or you can try to change the society you're in: one could argue that every one who disagrees with a society should leave it, but many of us know that many societies change and do not stay the same forever: much of that change has come of people living within those societies disagreeing with the society they live in and so they worked towards changing it.~

Whether these "changes" were for the "most benefit of the majority of that society" or not and in what way are subjective.~


Kevin,

"Mmmm, no, I still don't get it. Examples, examples. Need examples.

It all sounds so agreeable, but I still feel disoriented and thus, scared to commit to agreeing.

Help help! Even one or two examples would help me get my sea legs."


You just did, instead of saying that "people who walk around in public without clothes are crazy", we need to discuss why "nudity" is such a "problem" to begin with.~

And we have done just that.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-07-2013 at 07:24 PM.
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  #142  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:41 PM
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Kevin, "Oh ... except, what about those infamous guys who wear just a trenchcoat and go about intentionally flashing their erection to various individuals? That's not the kind of nudity we support, is it? any of us, right? Anyone disagree with me about that? (Care to elaborate if so?)"


In a society where "nudity" is natural and an accepted part of life, individuals like this would just be considered weird at the most.~

The "shock" value comes from "forcefully exposing other people to "nudity" when they have an unhealthy relationship with it" the only "shock" left from this in a society that has a healthy relationship with "nudity" would be: "Why is this person showing me the inside of their trench coat: are they trying to rob me, do they want to hurt me, are they selling me some thing, etc.?"

The "flasher" or "a streaker" may or may not have an unhealthy relationship with nudity, but "flashing" people is not doing any thing but forcing other people to deal with the existence of "nudity" whether they want to or not.~


Kevin, "Re: breastfeeding ... something in corporate policy needs to change ... seems like the ideal would be provisions for taking one's child to work so one could breastfeed the child directly ... and since that's a pipe dreams, longer breaks are needed for breastfeeding mothers to pump."


I hope you're joking, because I have studied and done research on many tribal cultures and women can simultaneously care for their child and continue their daily lives, and this includes carrying bushels of plants weighing over 20-50 pounds on their backs without any help from any one else and often without any kind of clothing what so ever: often the children are strapped to their chests with a harness or they carry them with one arm while the other arm is used to work things many "modern women" would consider "back-breaking work".~


To both Kevin and InfinitePossibility, just because you don't agree with some one else's way of thinking or doing things does not make them a "psychopath" and we may not even know if they truly are a "psychopath" unless they have either been professionally diagnosed (although many professionals are guilty of misconduct for personal gain and many are mistaken when trying to recognize actual "mental issues") or they have admitted to having mental issues that put them along the lines of a "psychopath".~


As to your mentioning of "brainwashing", to many extents we are all "brainwashed" in many ways from birth or even before birth depending on the society we live in and how we are raised.~

To suggest that "any one who doesn't agree with me is brainwashed" is I agree taking it too far, but this is no way applies to me as I have not said this.~

Again, sorry if I misinterpreted your humor, but it does seem like you are referring to me and it feels rather hurtful.~


All in all though, I am very happy with your attitude and ending points of view of these subjects!~ ^_^
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-07-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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  #143  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Or, everyone's a nudist at heart? Idea being, perhaps, that all the animals appear to be nudists at heart, and humans are animals, so why shouldn't the same principle apply?
Well, we're nudists at birth, certainly. Tough to say what we are at heart. Animals in cold climates burrow and make nests to keep warm/isolated/protected. If they had opposable thumbs and technical know-how, would they make clothes, or portable nests of some type?

<shrug>

Just lobbing that one back at you. With that one, I'm done.

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And maybe that's why, in accordance to my own personal beliefs, humans are both monogamous and polyamorous. One thing's for sure, whatever humans are, it isn't consistent.
On the whole, I would agree, since it seems to be something of a spectrum. One individual, however, can be anywhere on that spectrum.

I'm just making the distinction since saying that as a species we are both is different from saying that every member of that species has a bit of "poly" in them.
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Old 11-07-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
Kevin, "Re: breastfeeding ... something in corporate policy needs to change ... seems like the ideal would be provisions for taking one's child to work so one could breastfeed the child directly ... and since that's a pipe dreams, longer breaks are needed for breastfeeding mothers to pump."


I hope you're joking, because I have studied and done research on many tribal cultures and women can simultaneously care for their child and continue their daily lives, and this includes carrying bushels of plants weighing over 20-50 pounds on their backs without any help from any one else and often without any kind of clothing what so ever: often the children are strapped to their chests with a harness or they carry them with one arm while the other arm is used to work things many "modern women" would consider "back-breaking work".
CW, at least my part of the discussion was focused on breastfeeding in this country (US) - mothers with low-paying jobs (think 7-11 or Walmart) are not allowed to bring their children into the workplace. And in a right-to-work state, you can be fired for any reason. People don't want to risk their source of income when they can nourish their children in other, non-threatening ways.

It may be crappy, it may be easy to say "get a new job", but it sure as hell isn't easy to do in practice.
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  #145  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
Wrong, you always have a choice.~ You've just convinced yourself that you don't.~

I also use toilet paper, but I wash that area of myself with soap and water afterwards just like any other part of my body: it's really not that hard nor time-consuming when you have a level water dispenser next to the toilet like a bath tub.~
Well, when I'm not at home (which accounts for most of my day, except for weekends), I don't have a choice. I'd probably get fired for dragging my naked butt over to the sink.
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  #146  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:18 PM
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Well, when I'm not at home (which accounts for most of my day, except for weekends), I don't have a choice. I'd probably get fired for dragging my naked butt over to the sink.
For situations like that:

I tend to finish wiping myself, put my clothes on, walk over to the sink, get a neat wad of toilet paper put soap on it wet it a little bit, then walk back to the toilet stall and finish cleaning myself: sort of like a wet-wipe improvised sort of thing.~ ^_^

Oh, in case any one was wondering, I get my colors and their html codes from:


http://www.computerhope.com/htmcolor.htm
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-07-2013 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:33 PM
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I do believe I've just been schooled on how to wipe my own butt.
At any rate, I was mostly being facetious - I do know people who carry wet-wipes around. I'm just not one of them. If you prefer not to shake hands, I'll understand.
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Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

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  #148  
Old 11-08-2013, 07:19 AM
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Damn, I hate it when I'm sporting around with my disrespectful humor and then the fun comes to an end. Sigh, alright, back to the ol' grind: I bet I was out of line with a bunch of my quips here and there in the above posts, so, pardon my crude self-entertainment if you will, and I'll definitely try to do better in the future. No hurt intended, I swear on my life. It's just that I grew up in an environment where my siblings and I made fun of each other constantly, so you have to understand, it's what I got used to. Still trying to learn to catch myself before I do it to non-sibling comrades. I'm a bonafide slow learner, but I do see what a bad idea it is.

And now the real kicker ... I've gotten so comfortable with making light of everything, that I think I sometimes come across as joking (and/or poking fun) even when I'm serious. I don't know quite how to express seriousness ... and the line between serious and jocular can sort of get blurred even in my own mind.

You should probably also know (and keep in mind) that my siblings, and mother's side of the family, tend to be argumentative and competitive. Lots of game-playing. My youngest brother took third place in a Utah State Chess tournament and became a lawyer. Kind of "distinguished himself" as a manipulative person as well. Lots of sexual abuse in the home my mother grew up in ... I guess what I'm getting at is that, as a whole, my family is "not well." You already know from my earlier posts that my mom was, frankly, a crazy bitch when I was a kid (though she's pretty remorseful about that now). As for my dad, he's probably the most emotionally/socially clueless person I've ever met. Clueless in a lot of ways in fact, considering he was smart enough to be a well-respected draftsman and one of the most well-liked teachers in my high school.

Just sayin', these are the types of genes and upbringing you're dealing with when it's me on the "other side of your monitor." I don't mean to excuse myself, but I've been known to make major social blunders without even realizing it before it was too late. My parents and teachers found the amount of daydreaming I did in my earlier grade school years to be quite annoying. I think I might have mentioned in an earlier post that I'm on a bunch of meds and while they enable me to "keep it together" externally, they don't do much to calm the internal maelstrom. So I can be a very bright person (my mom was literally an all-A student), and a very foolish person at the same time. I'll apologize for that beforehand, and I'll apologize after the fact too because apologizing is something I've had to learn to get pretty good at. Sort of how alcoholics and wife beaters are always apologizing? Hey, if you decide you'd rather not interact with me I'll certainly understand. I often detest interacting with myself.

In case you're wondering, "Why be so down on yourself? Just make self-improvements, and overcome the past. You'll feel so much better." Oh, I'm still trying. "Right, but improve your methods of trying; you're trying the wrong way." Oh, I'm still trying to try the right way. It's an old story, one that will probably end with diabetes or a massive heart attack.

---

Re: nudity and practicality ... okay, what I'm supposing so far is that it's all about the weather. So, if it's cold, dress up (or rather, bundle up). If it's temperate -- probably dress up out of politeness? If it's warm, dress down (but nudity itself isn't quite yet a matter of practicality?). If it's hot, undress. That's the bottom line about what's practical, as far as I can tell. As I said I'm not sure "temperate" and "warm" don't constitute gray areas, but I'm assuming (at least for my own convenience) that as long as the clothes won't hurt you (and you're not at a nudist camp or something), then it's just as well (since it's not technically harmful to oneself) to wear clothes for the sake of more easily getting along with society at large (which in and of itself could be thought of as a practical consideration -- just a smaller consideration than health concerns), as long as it's not hot of course (as I said).

In case I was unclear about the following point: I personally definitely don't see any harm per se in going nude no matter where one is, unless the "where" is a cold (or at least cool) place.

Re (from Post #141):
Quote:
"I also have no idea what you mean by the paragraph of yours mentioned above about 'forcing one's self to be in the mood.'"
Ahem ... well, in fairness, I don't really know what I meant by that paragraph either. A "forced mood" is a silly idea and that's just what I was being: silly. But silly in a serious way: What I'm trying to get at is, since I can't force my moods, how can I be in the right mood to dress or undress at the right time? This is assuming (of course) that the weather is neither particularly hot/warm nor cold/cool. If the weather's not telling me whether to clothe myself, how do I know whether to clothe myself? That's why in this post I'm going out on a limb and supposing it's okay to "go along with what society wants" as long as it's not harming my health.

Re:
Quote:
"I did not 'draw the line between total nudity or totally clothed,' you did."
I did? Sorry, I didn't mean to. It seems to me that there is a continuum describing various amounts of worn clothing, just as there is a continuum describing various temperatures. Warmer = less clothing. Colder = more clothing. At the extremes of those continuums are, as cold as any sufficiently-equipped human could survive (better wear a heated spacesuit), and, as hot as any sufficiently unembarrassed human could survive (better wear nothing).

---

Re: toilet hygiene ... drat, I will probably have to concede a point or two in this area. Now to make it work well (for me), I'd want soap in a soap dish at sitting level, and a supply of clean dry washcloths within easy reach. My plan would be to wipe "as usual," then sit on the edge of the tub, then soap up "down there," then rinse (I personally think the rinsing part would be tricky but admittedly feasible), then dry off with a washcloth, then re-pants myself (if it's not hot), then put the washcloth in the hamper basket (would have to make a trip to my closet to do that, slightly inconvenient but I'm sure I'd live). Yeah you could argue that one washcloth should suffice for multiple dryings, but I'm just "funny that way," I guess.

Air/heat drying? No thanks, again because I'm funny that way, I'm a "paper man" when it comes to drying my hands too (partly because I also wash my face a lot and prefer to dry off with paper).

So now what's my excuse? two things: laziness and embarrassment. I'd need to get my lady's help in installing the soap dish (cause I'm no handyman), procuring the washcloth supply (cause she's got the car and the funds), and finding/installing someplace to put the washcloths, and given all that, I think I'd kind of have to tell her why I was asking for all those things. Nooooo, I feel so embarrassed! Of course, I'd need her to be willing to go along with all these requests (and refrain from laughing at me), but I *think* I could manage that. But then there's the laziness factor. Self-explanatory. Oh yeah, I'm confessing that I'm lazy enough to be "Americanly filthy" even though I know I could do better. Sorry!

Next confession: I only shower every other day. Sorry, sorry, yet more American filthiness I suppose. But on the days when I do shower, I always "schedule" my #2 pit stop for right before the shower. And when I shower, I *definitely* get it clean down there, by any country's standards (removable shower head with super-sprayer setting thank the gods). Soap and multiple cleanings and ... well let's not wander into TMI Land. So give me partial credit. Better than nothing is still better than nothing, at least I know I'm "truly clean" for about 24 glorious hours.

And finally, in my lazy-but-handy defense, I'll note that *if* it's very natural and thus a good idea to go with my "every-animal" attributes, then consider my pets. They don't wipe at all, so I'm actually doing pretty good in comparison. Okay okay, my cat has her own hair-raising way of keeping it clean down there ... but my dog goes to no such bother. Sniffing her own butt? Sure, she does that, but she don't lick it, let me tell ya. So I'm a few points ahead of my dog at least. Yes, I take great pride in winning that contest with my dog; can I thence return to my American tradition of pretending I'm in a state of cleanliness? Ohhh ... I think you might be shaking your head while giving me the evil eye. (Don't be alarmed, it's me I'm making fun of this time.)

[continued below]
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-08-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:20 AM
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[continued from above]

A bidet! That's what those things are called! Ahhh, now I feel like I'm both smart *and* clean (poking fun at my own self again; myself is always a fair target).

Let's get our countries straight though: Bidets are only *sometimes* found in France (sez Wikipedia). Italy is actually "The Bidet Country" in Europe; Portugal appears to get second place. France and Spain appear to come in third. Albania, Croatia, Slovenia, Malta and Greece have bidets here and there.

Surprisingly, South America is another bidet-ish area, especially Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay. Also surprisingly, a lot of the Middle East has bidets (even Iraq, supposedly, although I could have sworn America already blew up everything in that country. Did we leave the bidets intact? ).

And yeppers, I totally dissed Japan, it is completely innocent of having hole-in-the-ground toilets and in fact has bidets as well -- as do many East Asian countries. I'm still gonna stick to my bigoted belief that *some* East Asian countries have hole-in-the-floor toilets, though.

Re: bidets that you attach to your toilet ... I'm skeptical about that idea cause I just don't get how they work (even after examining Wikipedia). Where the #=!! do the faucets/nozzles go?

I'd still much prefer a full-fledged bidet, and not just any old bidet either, I want one of those muthas that sprays a jet of water right up into the air. Now that's what I'm talkin' about! I'd make full use of one of those suckers, with pleasure. And who knows? Maybe they're actually sold in the United States and I could get Home Depot to install one for me. Uh oh, my laziness just kicked in again, and my cheapness as well. Guess I get to keep my filthiness to go along with it. Sorry ...

If I ever go nude, I promise I'll carry a towel around with me to sit on. And I'll always wash my hands with soap and water, so you can still shake my hand. Just don't shake my butt!

Re: butt-cleaning creature (preferably plant-like) ... uh well, it makes perfectly logical sense, but I can't help it: Ewww! I think I'd prefer my super-soaker bidet, no offense.

Re (from Post #146):
Quote:
"For situations like [public restrooms]: I tend to finish wiping myself, put my clothes on, walk over to the sink, get a neat wad of toilet paper put soap on it wet it a little bit, then walk back to the toilet stall and finish cleaning myself: sort of like a wet-wipe improvised sort of thing."
Holy crap (literally), that turns the laziness lobe of my brain into a quivering ball of abject terror. I already hate public bathrooms (even the seemingly clean ones), dammit I even hate going at my older brother's house. I sooo prefer to use my own bathroom at my own house. Perhaps because that way I can literally make myself at home? Anyway, you have my grudging respect for your *Italian* standard of true cleanliness. (And I promise I still won't try to shake your butt, because I wouldn't want to confuse either of us.)

---

Re: self-hatred ... dude, I've been confused throughout this thread as to what self-hatred does or doesn't apply to. But by now, I'm now thinking it basically just applies to the wearing of clothes (at illogical/inappropriate times). I'm hitting closer to the mark -- I hope?

---

Re: killing ... yah we do a whole lot of that, much to my chagrin. Shouldn't I be incarcerated for failing (at my age yet) to be a vegetarian? Uhh, yeah, kind of.

National Geographic recently put out a film called "Life in a Day," composed of all-amateur footage but I still liked it. Except the scene where they filmed the killing of a cow. Oh God that was awful. And I participate (at all, in any way) in that kind of thing? Yes, shame is the right word for how that makes me feel about me ... and I even believe that I should feel so ashamed.

Jeezh, I know lots of animals are meat-eaters, but they have a good excuse for the killing that they do. Humans *could* be vegetarians if they (we) were willing to, that's my point.

Oh ... but here's a riddle. Without anyone killing any animals, how can I feed my cat? Can they make "vegetarian cat food" that actually works for cats? (Sigh, if not, I hope they'll discover that sort of technology sometime soon.) I can't just feed my cat milk/cheese all the time, can I? I don't even think that's good for cats.

So maybe killing is "natural," but I still don't like it -- not when humans do it. Yes, I'm pretty strongly opposed to war. On the other hand, I do agree with mercy killings (for both humans and other animals). Killing in self-defense? sure, given a "reasonable" definition for "self-defense." Example: "I figured that guy *might* kill me someday, so I had to kill him first." Dubious at best, and I'm more inclined to think the worst of it.

But, I'll cough up a riddle: In the movie "Sling Blade," [stop now if you abhore spoilers] Karl Childers killed a guy simply because that guy was a rotten guy who was making the lives of those around him miserable, and would only continue to do so increasingly. Childers had already been institutionalized for one murder he had committed as a kid, and he willingly returned to the institution now as the price he accepted for committing his last crime. Sooo ... was he really a criminal? Maybe every crime has its gray areas, depending on the context.

Re (from Post #141):
Quote:
"When it comes to 'murderers,' these people are by no means 'unnatural,' in fact it is in our very nature to do all these things: harm, kill, rape, steal, and lie."
To various degrees, this or that "vice" might be in the nature of various animals here or there. All such vices, in all animals? Skeptical. And anyway, humans have the mental tools to deeply analyze the ethical implications of their actions, and to resist taking even what would have been a perfectly natural action. So even if all those vices are naturally within us, it still looks to me like we are burdened with a higher standard of behavior (than the remaining animals).

[continued below]
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-08-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 07:21 AM
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[continued from above]

Re:
Quote:
"We harm or we kill for many reasons: to eat, to prove our strength, to claim territory, or just to survive, etc."
If by we you mean some of us, okay. Harm to eat? That sounds something more like a parasitic wasp would do to a spider. Kill to eat? Guilty as charged. Kill/harm to prove my strength? Not guilty. Kill/harm to claim territory? Been awhile since the United States has claimed new territory, but I participate in a country with a history of that kind of violence so you could call me an accomplice or at least a beneficiary of government violence. Kill to survive? Conceivable if I was hungry (or threatened) enough.

Re:
Quote:
"We either convince or we force others to mate with us to continue the survival of our genetic material ..."
  • I'm more of the "try to convince" type.
  • I'm snipped.
So again, who's this "we?" It can't be me and by extension it can't be all of us. Do some of us force others to "mate" with us? Sorry to say yes, but most of us know better.

Re:
Quote:
"We take what we can to survive ..."
Likely enough if I was sufficiently poor, cold, hungry, threatened, etc.

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Quote:
"We may 'say things but do another or the opposite of what we said or indicated' as a strategy to accomplish our goals."
At first I thought "no way in hell," til I inconveniently remembered a certain handful of months a ways in the past. Technically not a lie in the verbal sense, but certainly an act/pattern of deception.

In addition, if this was WWII and the SS was pounding on my door demanding to know if I was hiding any Jews in my home, my answer would have to be "No" even if it was a lie. Yet another gray area by context.

Re: rape ... the only gray area I can see is statutory rape. Now, do soldiers rape women in children in defeated lands? I think some but not all. Regardless, it's an inexcusable thing for any human to do.

Re:
Quote:
"As in nature, these things are not crimes outside our 'societies,' and if we even live in one: We harm or we kill for many reasons: to eat, to prove our strength, to claim territory, or just to survive, etc.; we either convince or we force others to mate with us to continue the survival of our genetic material; we take what we can to survive; and we may 'say things but do another or the opposite of what we said or indicated' as a strategy to accomplish our goals."
If I can say "not *necessarily* crimes," clarify/qualify, and confine the definition of some "not-crimes" to such gray areas as mentioned above, then I can agree with the whole paragraph as quoted immediately above. But I don't think it's often when a human is in a special situation that permits those kinds of actions. It would be an exception, not the rule.

Even though humans are technically animals, I still hold humans accountable for things for which I wouldn't hold another species of animal accountable. As described in an earlier post, humans are a "changed kind of animal," with ethical principles to consider.

---

Re:
Quote:
"As always, no one is forcing you to stay in any society, you may move to another that more fits your way of life or you may not live in any society at all and do as you please."
Ull ... expatriating isn't as simple as it was in the good old days. I couldn't migrate to Canada or New Zealand for example and become a citizen of either country. Not qualified enough.

And even if it were simple, it would involve moving far away from friends and family. A good thing to some, perhaps, but probably not to most.

Re: live in no society at all? ... tough proposition at best. The entire globe (except Antarctica which has *kind of* been claimed and divvied up) has by now been claimed by one country or another. Unless there's some tiny undiscovered island somewhere ...

Re:
Quote:
"Or you can try to change the society you're in ..."
Much simpler. (Though it takes a long time, and concerted effort by many people.)

Re:
Quote:
"Many of us know that many societies change and do not stay the same forever ..."
Don't most of us know that?

Re:
Quote:
"Much of that change has come of people living within those societies disagreeing with the society they live in and so they worked towards changing it."
I think that's how most societal change occurs (slowly, as mentioned above).

Re:
Quote:
"Whether these 'changes' were for the 'most benefit of the majority of that society' or not and in what way are subjective."
Of course.

---

Re: the classic "trenchcoat flasher" ... sounds to me like you're suggesting that "nude with an erection" should be treated the same way as "nude without an erection" (assuming there's no sex going on). Correct me if I'm wrong, otherwise, moving on.

Re: breastfeeding restricted at work ... nope, wasn't joking, but wasn't talking about *all* countries either, just the countries where businesses of whatever size restrict a mother's opportunities to breastfeed. That would include the United States.

Re: identifying a psychopath ... technically impossible. After all, even psychiatrists rely on the latest official literature to identify disorders. There was a time when the official psychiatric literature of the day labeled homosexuality as a mental disorder. Obviously the literature was mistaken and by extension, so were the professionals who relied on that literature.

Everything about psychology is subjective, and typically the deciding factors are, "Can this person function 'normally' in a 'normal' society?" Well, the definition of "normal" is educated guesswork at best. So in the end, I guess we have to make our individual judgments based on whatever little we know, and protect ourselves from harm if we perceive that it's necessary.

Re: brainwashing ... it's safe to say that virtually everyone is subject to it, at least to some extent. I don't know anyone who strikes me as "immune."

---

Re (from Post #143):
Quote:
"Animals in cold climates burrow and make nests to keep warm/isolated/protected. If they had opposable thumbs and technical know-how, would they make clothes, or portable nests of some type?"
I suppose so. But would they later migrate south with all that stuff? That's the question.

Re:
Quote:
"Re:
Quote:
'And maybe that's why, in accordance to my own personal beliefs, humans are both monogamous and polyamorous. One thing's for sure, whatever humans are, it isn't consistent.'
On the whole, I would agree, since it seems to be something of a spectrum. One individual, however, can be anywhere on that spectrum.
I'm just making the distinction since saying that as a species we are both is different from saying that every member of that species has a bit of 'poly' in them."
Oh oopsie -- bad communication on my part. When I said, "Humans are both monogamous and polyamorous," I meant: "Some humans are monogamous and some humans are polyamorous and heck, some humans are a little of each." In other words, I definitely *don't* agree that *all* humans have even a particle of polyamory anywhere "in their heart." Some humans are monogamous at heart and some are polyamorous at heart and that's how I should have said it.

Of course, I also agree with the spectrum you spoke of. Oh what the heck, check out one of my few self-started threads if you haven't already: Philosophical Semantics, Part I
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