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  #21  
Old 11-03-2013, 03:52 PM
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I don't see anything wrong at all about delaying intercourse with any new prospective partner, just as you did pre-marriage. We can't be too careful these days! I've dated about 30 people since becoming single back in 2008, and I rarely went all the way on a first date, despite my super high libido. If I felt turned on by this or that person on a first date, sure, I'd mess around with them to one extent or another, but full-on PiV was rare.

Look deeply at this idea of ownership between you and your h though. The ownership of one human by another is termed slavery. In this country, slavery is illegal unless it's a consensual kink.

Coming from the Christian mindset, of course, most of the Bible assumes slavery. A person can own another as a slave who is his servant. A man owns his wife and children and can do as he pleases with them. That was all written reflecting life in the BCE era to first couple centuries CE though! We are talking Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman Empire days, with a little bit of monotheism (Yahweh worship) thrown in just to make things even more complicated. Why anyone would base their lives on the thoughts and misguided beliefs of cultures from 2000+ years ago is beyond me.

This is the 21st century. You own yourself, your h owns himself. Opening your marriage will help you look at how independent you both allow yourselves to be. Coming together as husband and wife should be an issue of choice, not expectation, not ownership, not "sharing" or "allowing" one's partner to do this or that.

You both will, of course, take into consideration this is all a brand new relationship configuration that will take time to get used to. Time, patience, respect, consideration, negotiation. But not ownership.

How do you deal with the fear of loss? You could lose your spouse at any time, through death. You could lose most of them through a debilitating disease, even if they hang onto life. Your husband could lose you to another man at any time. People do fall out of love and divorce. But if you're really poly, doing or not doing this or that sex act won't cause you to fall out of love with your husband.

I have all kinds of wonderful fucking with my bf Ginger. I have not fallen out of love with my gf miss pixi just because she doesn't have his equipment and we don't have PiV! My sex life in general is less intense with miss p than with Ginger, her libido and tastes in bed are different, but we love each other madly, and got a house together this year.
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me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37

Last edited by Magdlyn; 11-03-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-03-2013, 09:39 PM
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Interesting food for thought; I know you're speaking to PolyMC but just a few things ...

Re: ownership = slavery which is illegal ... huh interesting observation and really true; hard to overcome though in today's society. I mean, don't "they" teach us that we "own" one another when we get married? Sometimes I think it's hard for people (and takes quite awhile) to dissolve that social conditioning. So technically, there's a lot of traditional married couples out there who (in their hearts) are technically breaking the law ...

Most of all, "they" teach us that we "own" our spouse's sexual organs. I can imagine A having quite a struggle with laying that notion aside.

Re:
Quote:
"Why anyone would base their lives on the thoughts and misguided beliefs of cultures from 2000+ years ago is beyond me."
Haha, I sooo resonate with that; though I seldom say it cause I hate to take the chance of offending some religious person or another. But yeah it's like, reality check, 2000 years, hello?

Interesting ideas about the -- potential? feared? -- loss of "how good it used to be" once PIV has occurred with a new partner. It says a lot that you and miss pixi can't even do PIV, and yet even though you *can* do so with Ginger, it hasn't ruined what you had with miss p at all. So, "sharing" PIV probably isn't something any of us (e.g. PolyMC or A or both) need to be scared of.

But waiting awhile before diving into the PIV end of the pool? perfectly do-able and an option I'm down with. Can't be too careful these days? Hell yeah, that's the reality of our modern age.

Okay, I'll desist ... sorry for the tendency to get in on someone else's conversation ... I just particularly liked a lot of what you said and wanted to say amen, amen.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2013, 03:52 AM
PolyMC PolyMC is offline
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Oooh, very interesting things to think about with ownership of body parts. I'm having a little trouble with the idea of it being equated to slavery though, as that implies that what we're doing is totally against my will. Nothing could be further from the truth on that, although I suppose the real test of that will be if I find myself in a position of desperately wanting the PIV with either "M" or "T" and have to hold back because of the agreement. It hasn't happened yet...not even close. In the next four or five months that could change. Right now I'm still in the process of getting my brain wrapped around my being in love with three men at once AND trying to explain that to "A" while still reassuring him that I love him now more than I ever have. He keeps coming back to "Am I not enough for you" and doesn't understand when I tell him that has nothing to do with it. I will say that we've been quite a bit more affectionate with each other since the initial poly talks than we've been in the recent past before.

And Kevin, please don't feel you need to leave the conversation...I've come to really look forward to your insights as a "seasoned poly" as it were. As I mentioned before, I don't have anyone to talk to in my immediate support system as I have not "outed" myself except to those directly involved (2 out of three anyway...maybe I'll get brave and have a heart-to-heart with "M" next month when I'm up there; at least I'll find out where I stand) and two others who are sympathetic to the situation, but have no experience with this particular subject.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2013, 05:15 AM
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Oh of course, I still "want in on the conversation" in general (thanks for that re-invite), I just didn't mean to block someone else's effort to post to you directly.

Re:
Quote:
"Am I not enough for you?"
Only insofar as A can't literally be everyone in the world; he can't be M and T. Every person is unique and brings something to the table that no one else could bring. So from a poly standpoint, "Nobody is ultimately enough, but everyone you love is perfect for you." A is perfect for you. T is perfect for you. M is perfect for you. Nobody in the equation *needs* to be "enough" per se (since what does "enough" really mean anyway except to suggest if you really loved someone you wouldn't need to be polyamorous?); they just need to be "right for you" (and you need to be right for them of course).

Is it "not enough" to be perfect for someone? Well, then it should be *enough for A* that he is perfect for you. He shouldn't need to be *everything* for you in order to consider himself adequate. You don't do polyamory because you want him to change. You do it because you want to share the love with M and T also.

Well, if A is deeply conditioned to live only with monogamy, it will take great patience, and many different approaches, to help him put aside that conditioning. Conditioning is really, really hard to reason with.

Good luck and keep us posted.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2013, 07:09 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I'd be weary of anyone telling you what will be acceptable

in regards to A and T

I say it's up to you first, and fuck what anyone else has to say about it, how is what you decided being anything even remotely close to A "owning" you just because he is your husband?

If T is all about making sure both you and your husband really want to practice "polyamory" and he is fine keeping physical love to only hugging you passionately who is it that ultimately "owns" the relationship rules?

Why is the negative "owning" and "controlling" behavior assigned to your husband yet not to the people who attempt to pressure you into PIV sex?

and if they are not attempting to pressure you, then why are you even debating what is right or wrong in any circumstances other then you've already discussed things with T, and he demands PIV sex?

which in that case who is it really that thinks they own your body?

perhaps maybe the only way to not be playing this game of assumptions that all the poly gurus claim is a no no, you should sit down with both A and T and yourself and see if any of them start making claims of ownership where they are entitled to demand any sex or demand no sex without your consent.

I mean, we are all adults right?

How many polyships are sunk because some well meaning advice giver actually wants your husband to suffer through all that they had to?

I know everyone talks about jealousy of their partner's lover, but if they are really so genuine and forthright super poly, how come the jealousy of someone having way too easy of a time with polyamory and the sabotage from people jealous of other's relationships never gets mentioned?

Are people seriously that vocal and adamant that poly will be this way and must be experienced as their experience was, and are they honestly just trying to help you have a successful experience or is it even remotely possible that there is just a smidgeon of resentment or jealousy?

Lets say that T honestly just enjoys you for being you, and doesn't mind not even kissing let alone no everything besides PIV sex, are these people going to happy because all of you were patient enough to coast into poly or just happened to fall backwards into it?

My experience is you would meet the same hostility, if not more, and personally have become accustomed to saying "fuck all that noise" let them be pissed, the truth is not debatable, are you supposed to feel sorry for people who have bad relationships because their lovers are passive aggressive assholes?

maybe if they didn't agree they couldn't break up with people because then the partner gets accused of pulling the veto card,

My personal view of drilling partners is why try to destroy something that could be good if it were allowed to be "organic" instead of some asshole being force fed "poly" medicine?

unless you are planning on hitting every nerve a potential boyfriend may have, why hit them at all? and if you are going to do it to your husband, warn him first, otherwise you are just going to make the road harder to travel, I don't care what some poly guru says, if some asshole litters my driveway with nails, when I get a flat tire I am not dumb enough to think it was my tires weren't tuff enough.

I'd tell the asshole who caused the problem to knock it off.

this is all a moot point unless T is demanding PIV sex, no?

I mean seriously , what is the point?
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  #26  
Old 11-04-2013, 07:38 AM
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I'm guessing the meaning is that just because everyone paints PIV as "inevitable" (in poly), doesn't mean you have to assume that's how it'll be in your experience? If so, then I have no arguments. If you, A, T, and M are happy with whatever you've got here and now, let that suffice and the future can develop naturally as it will. No, PIV is not required in any poly relationship, ever. Completely up to the persons involved.

I hope that arrow didn't miss the mark ...
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  #27  
Old 11-04-2013, 02:38 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post

I say it's up to you first, and fuck what anyone else has to say about it, how is what you decided being anything even remotely close to A "owning" you just because he is your husband?
Dirt, it was the OP who brought up the Christian angle and the guilt around having multiple partners. I was addressing that angle.

The rest of your post is mildly offensive and riddled with expletives and put downs, so I merely skimmed it and won't bother responding or clarifying.
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me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #28  
Old 11-06-2013, 06:52 AM
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I just didn't understand the post, I don't think. I guess "who says anyone's owning anyone here" was part of the point? but far from all of the point. Honestly, that post kind of went everywhere. Dirtclustit, I need simpler, clearer, better organized, more direct statements, with examples, in order to really understand, I think. Don't suppose you could help me out in that area?
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:22 AM
PolyMC PolyMC is offline
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I'm not quite sure I fully understand the post by Dirtclustit either, but the gist that I get is that I'm being encouraged to follow my heart regarding how to handle my relationship(s) and not be influenced by what others tell me is the "right thing to do", which may or may not apply to my specific situation. While I do have an idea of what's "right" in my heart, I'm still really new to the poly thing and having others relay their experiences and issues they've encountered along the way is helpful. While I may not follow the same path, it will better prepare me for what I might expect to encounter as this newly discovered aspect of my personality unfolds.

And I'm happy to report that things are still good between me and "A"...we're talking a lot more than we ever have. He's still trying to come to grips with this "bombshell" of sorts, but we've agreed that we both have no intention of ending the marriage as we still love each other as much as we ever have, if not more. The test will be these upcoming trips...
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:13 AM
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If I may ask, when exactly are these upcoming trips? Are they both trips to see M? T? some of each?

And these will be no-PIV trips, but the batch of trips after that might be PIV's? Are you personally hoping that'll be permitted soon? Like, real soon, or what? a month? a year? Do you think you'll ever need it to be permitted?

With the variety of perspectives available on this thread, I hope you'll be able to assemble a composite picture that works for you. Let us know how thing are going ...

Regards,
Kevin T.
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