Some Things Some People Need To Hear

[ImaginaryIllusion]

So I’ve been paying some attention to this thread as various accusations have been levelled at the board, it’s culture, the moderators, and myself. I’ve been mostly content to let people have their time to process, but there’s some things here which I feel a need to address. Both because I find the constant accusations of the board to be baseless and detrimental to the community, and also because my name is attached to the moderation post which led us here.


At this point, this should be post 60. Not including the original post, and #2, the other 57 posts preceding this have mostly been discussing the atmosphere of the board, and various accusations about how some members treat others, etc.

Not including the 12 posts by moderators, just those by members of the board, there were 2 where I couldn’t tell if they supported the accusations of double standards and a problem with passive-aggressive culture on the board. At the very least they seemed uninterested in the conflict generated:

Originally Posted by rolypoly

I tried reading through the primary secondary thread because I thought it might relate to some of what I was feeling and seemed to come into a heated argument, so turned away.

Of the remaining 44 posts, on the surface they would seem pretty even….22 accusing the community of double standards, and passive aggressive behaviour, unchecked insults, and a few other things sprinkled in. The other 22 generally defend the community, or call into question the accusations, the nature of how they arose, and generally try to determine the validity of the accusations, or dispel them.


So fine, let’s look at the accusations...some excerpts from 22 posts worth:

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I'm talking about the general culture and not that specific incident. Whether or not that post was "squelched" or not, or even if the post in question never existed, it wouldn't change my feelings about it.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I suppose that supports my point and lends more justifications to how I feel about the culture of this forum.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

This is an online forum that claims to be an open and welcoming forum. I'm merely pointing out that this probably isn't as much the reality of the situation that many would believe.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

... "the community" in general seems to hold a double standard that favors passive aggressive insulting behavior ....

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I've said I'm disappointed in the culture of this forum.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

And the environment that is created for people who fall on the wrong side of that spurious, unclear and sometimes hypocritical standard can indeed be hostile, as Joreth experienced and as I've experienced. That's not about the specific actions of the moderators but about the general culture of this forum.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I'm talking about the double standards I constantly see here and this seeming need protect a certain culture and how, in my opinion (and the opinion of others), that fierce protection creates a space where open honest discussion just can't happen.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

Which is why I've repeatedly stated that this is a culture issue, not a moderator issue.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

In making this forum a "special place" it has become an unwelcome place for many people. I'm sorry you feel personally offended by the issues brought up, though I'm not sure what you think people are implying about moderators here.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

Suggesting that there is an unclear standard and that the community tends to apply double standards based on what's popular ...

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

I agree. A culture issue which encompasses the moderators as well as the members.

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

A blind eye being turned from the behavior of some because their opinion is favored does not encourage a welcoming environment. It has been pointed out over and over through the experiences of different members.

On this last item, I may actually be in agreement with Raven that we’ve been turning a blind eye to some people’s behaviour. Behaviour that might make for an unwelcoming environment. But I’m in complete disagreement about what that behaviour might be...or the source of it.

I’d also note that all the above examples about how some people feel the board is unfair to them comes from 2 people (and passing reference that the OP would be a third who may feel similarly).


Some examples I’ve seen in the 22 posts that seem to support the community, mods, or otherwise address the above accusations:

Originally Posted by Fidelia

Thanks for handling the situation with such clarity and directness.

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

This forum has been a great place for people who communicate with honesty and respect. I don't think that will change and look forward to continued particiaption by mature respectful people.

Originally Posted by LovingRadiance

I think the endless "no, I'm right and you are wrong!" posts and the "how dare you say xyz because we all KNOW it means tuv" posts are highly destructive to the overall atmosphere, compared to if we let the battle go and worked on showing an example of the type of communication we wish everyone had....

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

For that reason I feel it's important to stay away from personal conflict, ideologies, agendas etc, ESPECIALLY in a thread that is started with a particular topic.
It really has little value in most cases, is distracting, discouraging (especially to new members or visitors).

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Yes, GS, that's the reason I joined this forum (and why I joined and/or started every poly forum/board/group I have been on).

Originally Posted by LovingRadiance

… it seems like there is so much attention and time put into proving a point right or wrong, that there isn't anyone to "talk" to about POLYAMORY and the issues that arise in regards to it.

Originally Posted by redsirenn

There are people on here that are trying to utilize this forum to help progress them through personal and heartbreaking decisions. The energy is better used there, IMHO.
Why don't we, as a community, try to give people the benefit of the doubt, including our moderators, unless something is CLEARLY worth the effort of a million posts?

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

I have seen more counter-examples than evidence of your claim.

Notice any trends? Fairly different examples…differing viewpoints. Honesty, respect, desire to talk about Poly...disinclination to personal agendas? It’s all there. Also note that the 22 posts include 8 different members...and one of them doesn’t even have a high post count!

Originally Posted by booklady78

I respect those who try and avoid getting dragged into these vicious circles of trying to 'explain' or 'clarify' an opinion ad nauseum.
<snip>
I also felt hesitation to jump into this topic, however I felt a need to express my support for the lovely, positive people that I have come to admire and respect on this forum.
I have read comments that I may not have agreed with, but I'm frequently blown away by how well spoken and respectful many members are. The majority of members I have 'bantered' with have been supportive and insightful.

This is the best example here why I think the board and mods are doing something right. Note a disinclination to ad nauseum, that people are entitled to their opinions...an overall positive experience including respect & support.

And what does it say about the culture, that of those who actually braved stepping into this discussion that 8 supported the actions agreed on by 5 moderators? Over the objections of 2, who manage to maintain an equal post count in attempting to discredit the forum?

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Originally Posted by Ceoli

In the letter addressed to her from ImaginaryIllusion, the following was stated:

That last bit I bolded is quite a bit more vague than the reason her post was actually moderated and suggests an issue of style more than anything else. Especially since she was responding to the same things being brought up over and over in that particular thread. And it's fair enough that her post was moderated for hostile language, ...

Since you have decided to bring it up...and implicitly question my integrity in the process, fine. Joreth’s post was moderated for hostile language. Period. End. Stop.

The warning was just that, and one that should be heeded by others as well. There were other actions by Joreth on this forum that have caused issues in the past...and this was fair warning that there may be consequences to continuing such behaviours in the future.

I don’t have an issue either personally or as a moderator about honesty, directness, bluntness... this isn’t a problem of style. It’s nothing to do with my personal opinion about the subject, the content, the opinions. Quite frankly while I may not agree with everything, there’s a lot of good information written by Joreth and others involved that frankly gets lost in the method of delivery. And I do think that’s unfortunate.

I do have an issue as a moderator about the tactics such as argumentum ad nauseam, filibustering, or repeated thread hijacking being used to prove a point, achieve perceived personal agenda’s or forcing dogmatic ideologies upon other members.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I have made this argument ad nauseam every single time someone has accused me of attacking them for having an opinion about something.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I suggest you look at my posting history to get a clearer idea of where I'm coming from. This is another argument I've made ad nauseam when I've been accused of being insensitive.

I don’t care if it’s something I personally support or not. This has to do with my view as a moderator of the effect of these tactics have on the community as a whole. I would object to these things if subjected to it as a member, they’re things I would not tolerate in my own living room, and thus I will do what I need to as a mod to minimize these things from damaging the community and the people in it. It’s part of our responsibility as moderators here to hold people accountable for their actions on this forum. I think you understand this:

Originally Posted by Ceoli

There is a difference between holding someone accountable and personal conflict.

It’s interesting that Raven should choose to describe mod action as ‘’squelching”...as it certainly applies to this case. The tactics I mention above, when used excessively or repeatedly serve as a form of static, blotting out other posters opinions, sidetracking threads, and deterring readers and prospective posters alike. It interferes with clear communication...just like radio static...and that’s what the squelch is for. Removing the static so that communications can be heard clearly. For anyone who isn’t familiar with radios and squelch, the best principle is to leave it as low as possible, while still filtering out the noise.

Originally Posted by YGirl

I would like to point out that the moderators hardly ever "unapprove" posts or issue "infractions" beyond straightforward banning of spam(mers).
<snip>
ETA: I am very impressed by the fact that the moderators don't have to step in more often. I tend to have faith (in spite of myself) that people can work things out for themselves, and that is usually what happens, regardless of any real-or-perceived "passive-aggressiveness".

Precisely. The moderators are pretty laissez faire where it concerns moderating content. We try not to impede free expression whenever possible. There’s no inherent problems in our view in communication styles, content, debate, heated arguments, etc. The overriding principle from the guidelines however should be noted here:

Originally Posted by AutumnalTone

What’s Expected and Allowed

First and foremost, we expect members to respect these guidelines. We have rules in place to ensure that we can offer our members a place to discuss issues that is free from commercial activity, overwrought drama, and generally boorish behavior. This forum is a home of sorts, and where we wouldn't allow salesmen to work our holiday parties, nor drunken jackasses to abuse other dinner guests, we won't allow that sort of thing here, either.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

So much for me...let’s talk about the other half of this discussion...and the perceptions of "passive-aggressiveness".

Originally Posted by Ceoli

When things are written here that contain inaccurate assumptions about an identity I share or claim, I will most definitely call that out. I usually make it a point to point out (and as Joreth also pointed out) that the offense may not have been intended, but it is there nonetheless. The atmosphere of this forum makes that a difficult thing to do indeed.

I think we’ve discussed before the idea about ‘calling it out’...and how regardless of what you may think you’re discussing, it can be perceived as confrontational.

Originally Posted by booklady78

Because let's face it my friends, some things posted on here are opinion, not fact. Everyone is a product of their own experiences and while you may not agree, it's not always the responsibility of the holder of an opinion to prove or explain it to anyone. Can that be frustrating? Sure it can, but attacking or feeling entitled to an explanation doesn't establish a dialogue, it may instead create a hostile environment that is intimidating and unproductive.

Assumptions can be erroneous about person being called out, or the interpretation of what they wrote versus what they meant. Lack of non-textual communications, difference in geography/culture, or just not getting the difference between attacking their opinion and their person, the receiver’s interpretation of the tone of the sender. Or the assumption that their opinion/assumptions are ‘wrong’ and need to be called out.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I hold my principles of anti-oppression and open honest expression as my reasons for calling it out. My own personal experience with how that has been received has been quite negative on many occasions.

I’ve told you several times that I do have respect and admiration about your choice of cause. However that doesn’t mean the ends justify any means necessary on the forum where those means are damaging to the community.

In terms of your actions in trying to take action on these principles on the forum, and how the posts on these subjects can be interpreted, I’m frankly not surprised that you’ve had this experience. The tone of the posts can be perceived as personal, aggressive, confrontational, or righteous. To continuously, repeatedly, and ad nauseum bludgeon your point home in multiple threads over a variety of subjects...with multiple members can be perceived as persecution. What conclusions did you really expect those people to have? Enlightened messiah of anti-oppression? Or self-righteous crusader?

Originally Posted by Ceoli

And I'm just as tired of it as you are. Yet again, the same shit over and over again. And perhaps I'm overly paranoid, I don't know. But it often feels like most of the blame gets thrown at posters like myself, Raven and Joreth.

If the exact same things were done to the same scale and consistency in real life, I’m also surprised that your experience in negative reactions would be limited to this forum.

If you have a perception of passive/aggressive behavior by some people on the forum, have you considered the possibility that it’s those people’s normal human reactions to your past actions here? I’ve looked for the so called passive-aggressive behaviors that you describe. I can understand where you might get that perception. But I also note that even where some interpretations of that might be found with certain interactions with you, the same posters don’t show the same behavior elsewhere. Few complain about it. Few instances of these are seen very long or in any consistency between other members. This leads me to believe that it’s not a forum wide “Culture” problem...

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

Seems odd that the rest of us aren't having these same issues if there are so many of these terrible sorts of people.
<snip>
If you're noticing a pattern on every forum with the way every person reacts to you.... maybe just maybe... it's not them?

A final note to consider...I know passions may run deep about anti-oppression...but this is not an anti-oppression forum or marginalization forum, or a personal soapbox to right all the wrongs of the world forum. It’s not a hold-others-accountable-for-their-opinions forum. This is a Poly forum, for discussing Poly subjects.

To address the post that started this all, Derby’s post. It said nothing that needed to be taken as an insult. It contained no absolutes. It made allowance for exceptions to the rule (because we all know that everyone thinks they’re the exception) It was an expression of her own opinion and experience, and despite that she admitted in response to YGirl that possibly better wording could have been used, the meaning of non-specific ‘you’ was still understood as not directed to anyone. If anyone was insulted by that, they chose to be. It doesn’t make her opinion or experience any less valid than yours. No one here has absolute moral authority to judge what’s right and wrong.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I find it interesting that there is this huge resistance to even bothering to examine how that can be unwelcoming to people. Ah well. I shouldn't be surprised.

I’m hoping I will be surprised.

I’d suggest looking at how many times you’ve insisted that other people change their language to suit your interpretation with no consideration for changing your own. How many times have you belaboured a point so long that the OP that you were responding to decided enough was enough and gave up on the thread? How many times have you called people out for what you perceive to be ‘insults’ and still refuse to acknowledge how your own posts can be doing the same to them? How often do you consider if there’s people on the board who won’t post because they feel intimidated by the rants, or the perceived assaults on other people who dare express an opinion contrary (and sometimes not even) to yours, Joreth’s, or Raven’s?

Do you really want to talk about making people defensive, or feel unwelcome? Do you really want to talk about what an oppressive or marginalizing person looks like? Do you really want to talk about hypocrisy and double standards? Do you really want to talk about what inhibits open and honest discussion? Do you want to talk about what it feels like to be ‘called out’ for your beliefs?

Take a good, long, hard, honest look in a clean mirror...it's being 'called out'.

Originally Posted by Rarechild

P.S. You're all awesome-debate on. Just give the guidelines another read, will you please?

Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion

Notice any trends? Fairly different examples…differing viewpoints. Honesty, respect, desire to talk about Poly...disinclination to personal agendas? It’s all there. Also note that the 22 posts include 8 different members...and one of them doesn’t even have a high post count!


This is the best example here why I think the board and mods are doing something right. Note a disinclination to ad nauseum, that people are entitled to their opinions...an overall positive experience including respect & support.

And what does it say about the culture, that of those who actually braved stepping into this discussion that 8 supported the actions agreed on by 5 moderators? Over the objections of 2, who manage to maintain an equal post count in attempting to discredit the forum?

Post count is a funny measurement to use and a fairly inaccurate one. As far as I'm concerned. My post count is what it is because apparently I have the gall to respond to other posts that address things I say.

But duly noted. My feelings about my own personal experience on this forum (Note: NOT an attempt to discredit, but to share my FEELINGS) are clearly not welcome if they are not shared by the majority. I shall endeavor to only share those feelings that are deemed acceptable and popular in this forum in the future.

And for those who are not at the table, well...we don't have to worry about them since everyone else here is happy.

[GroundedSpirit]

Thank you I I
Well stated, clear advice.

GS

[LovingRadiance]

I think II that you must have more patience than I do-
AND
I am confident that you are either NOT ADD or you are AMAZING at hyperfocusing.

On a serious note though.

I still believe that the BIGGEST issue here is that people (myself included) have a hard time remembering IN THE MOMENT that we are all from VERY VERY different parts of the world, different lives, different times in life and therefore how we speak and of what we speak and what we know and are aware of is VERY VERY different
AND our language and understanding of word meanings is also very different-which means we OFTEN say things that are misunderstood and in light of our being on a POLY board and POLY being such a "touchy" topic, we need to be gentle and understanding as we try to figure out what the other person MEANT instead of concerning ourselves with the appropriate methodology for OUR understanding.
Assuming always that their INTENT was positive (actually I do this in life as well but whatever).

Imaginary, I have never expected anything of anyone else on this forum that I don't expect of myself.

I have never demanded that anyone change their interpretations of anything, however I will continue to address interpretations of my own posts, the same as anyone. I have never been unreasonable about anything I've approached and have always been very clear about the values I approach any of these discussions with.

Clearly you find that infuriating. And you seem to be clearly stating that my style isn't welcome in your view.

Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion

Do you really want to talk about making people defensive, or feel unwelcome? Do you really want to talk about what an oppressive or marginalizing person looks like? Do you really want to talk about hypocrisy and double standards? Do you really want to talk about what inhibits open and honest discussion? Do you want to talk about what it feels like to be ‘called out’ for your beliefs?

Take a good, long, hard, honest look in a clean mirror...it's being 'called out'.

Yep. I sure do. Feel free to point out all of the problems you have with me. I will happily address each and every one of them. Though I doubt that would satisfy you, since I will probably argue the points you make. And you're just as free to argue back.

Call me out. Like I said, I never hold any expectations of anyone else that can't be expected of myself.

And I'll remember that when I want to express my feelings about something on this forum that they won't be welcome here. (well, hell...honestly, I learned that lesson a while ago)

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Originally Posted by Ceoli

Clearly you find that infuriating. And you seem to be clearly stating that my style isn't welcome in your view.

That would be an incorrect assumption.
Nothing about you or your posts, or style, if you insist on calling it that, infuriates me. I am not angry about any of this.

I am trying to expose the roots of distention here, and the dynamic that's causing it.
It seems to me that it's caused a lot of tears, frustration, and heartache in the past, and I'd prefer to dig it out rather than continue to let it fester (already tried that route). I don't expect it is comfortable for anyone... not for you, or me, or anyone who's still reading this from the sidelines...and I apologize for that.

I've said most of what needed to be said to illustrate both where the perceptions of passive-aggressive behavior come from, and things that might cause people to behave that way...so I won't belabor the point here.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

I have never expected anything of anyone else on this forum that I don't expect of myself.

An admirable personal philosophy, and one I like to follow myself.
However but this isn't really about our personal expectations of others is it? But other peoples' expectations of us...and the reactions we can expect if we meet those expectations, or not, or even try.

And by 'us', I mean Everyone! Filibusters, Passive-aggressives, plain passive or aggressive, the over-sensitive, the insensitive, and anyone in between.

Hmmm...it looked more to me like a rather defensive post that was accusing others of trying "discredit" this forum. My mistake from reading the word "discredit" and taking it to mean discredit.

I'll just assume that's not what you meant.

As for the rest of it, well it certainly read very differently to me than what you've said in this last post and I don't think you illustrated the point very well if that indeed was your intent.

[Ravenesque]

ImaginaryIllusion, you suggest looking in the mirror to others. Perhaps you should practice that little nugget.

I’d also note that all the above examples about how some people feel the board is unfair to them comes from 2 people (and passing reference that the OP would be a third who may feel similarly).

Some examples I’ve seen in the 22 posts that seem to support the community, mods, or otherwise address the above accusations

...

Notice any trends? Fairly different examples…differing viewpoints. Honesty, respect, desire to talk about Poly...disinclination to personal agendas? It’s all there. Also note that the 22 posts include 8 different members...and one of them doesn’t even have a high post count!

This is utterly irrelevant. The volume of expressed agreement in relation to expressed disagreement does not lend validity to anything, whether that be a person or his point of view. With that logic, anything could be justified because a bunch of people agreed and dissenting voices were few or silent.

Sounds similar to "Oooh, 8 people say there isn't a problem and 2 said there is. Notice a trend? That means there's no problem." This isn't a popularity contest. "They have a crew and you don't so they win." Really now?

It's absurd. Absurd as proof that the views of 8 are correct and the views of 2 are incorrect, as reasoning for why the views of 2 should not be expressed, and as reasoning why the problem brought up doesn't exist.

Argumentum ad nauseum =/= your opinion nauseates me. We have the right to express our thoughts and feelings as much as others do. Placing a negative label on views expressed which differ from favored views does not negate that right nor does it give your view any more validity than ours. I've not seen those crying "argumentum ad nauseum" stepping back from the discussion and shutting up to avoid the dreaded "argumentum ad nauseum."

As for double standards, my experience in particular was one where I was told by you ImaginaryIllusion not to mention other poly groups in my posts. An odd little rule that seemed to have nothing to do with forum "guidelines" nor did it seem to extend to other members whether their opinions were positive or negative and spanning whole threads. This was in response to mentioning my negative experience in The Birdcage forum. A hostile 'fuck' (whatever that means) didn't even show up in the post amazingly and the entire post was much larger than the one line in question. However, this was your response to that issue.

Interpretation next. What is "hostile" has been shown to be relative to member and moderator here. End of story. While your words and the words of others may have been seen and interpreted as hostile and biased by others, that is not highlighted. What is highlighted are the words those who voice their disagreement and their opinion to the more numerous voices it seems. This is demonstrative of social sway and power that moderators have and allow others to have because they favor their opinion.

Your posts are an insulting attempt to show why views like Ceoli's, my own, and Joreth's are not relevant to the forum and only static that disrupts the relevant views based on whatever criteria you wish to say these are relevant (8 versus 2 shows the truth! ugh...)

Forcing opinions on others? (Because people are tied to their computers by others of course). This while you build paragraphs to describe why one set of opinions are more important than others. Crusader? Messiah? People can make whatever opinions they wish. It does not sway my views because "he doesn't like me waah." That means that your opinion, though you may think it is so much more than that, has no more weight to it than anyone else's. This includes whether or not you see passive-aggression as real or something made up.

Exquisitely highlighted in your three posts but not the first time to pop up, value and empathy have not been extended to the views of all members and it appears that some views are being protected because those are the views which are favored in this forum. It appears that a forum where differing views do not exist is wanted.

Originally Posted by YGirl

The most impressive thing right now is that it is possible to have this very conversation without devolving to angry personal insults.

This is fascinating in light of the tirade (which spanned websites; how dare others post their opinions on a medium beyond your reach) you allowed yourself to slip into earlier in this thread which included the embarrassing posts that were conveniently erased. You seemed to have something stuck in your craw from the moment I extended my sympathy to Joreth and expressed being heartened by her highlighting issues I have seen. My sentiments for her and her opinion were not directed towards you but you lost your mind over it nonetheless. It was amusing to count how many times you quoted squelch and on how many websites. It seems ImaginaryIllusion wants to join the fun. Someone might suggest a drinking game out of it.

Originally Posted by YGirl

I am growing rather weary of being told that this is a "culture issue not a moderator issue" on one hand, and on the other hand being told (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=19) that it's the moderators who set the tone of the culture and that we play favorites by tacitly agreeing with the passive-aggressive people (no, Raven doesn't say it in those words, but I am fluent enough in English to re-phrase something someone else wrote in my own words).

I grew weary as well. Especially of the argument you seemed to be having with yourself. Accusations and even quotes which you created to argue against. So I did other things for a bit. If your point was that moderators create a forum and do not control the tone, I disagree. The forum, tone and all, is controlled through moderation and moderator opinion. Moderation sanctions and moderation denounces. Moderation may not be the only factor but it is the overriding factor. Denial doesn't make this any less the case. And it certainly isn't laissez-faire in the words of ImaginaryIllusion.

~~~

What I've seen here is self-congratulation, egotism, hypocrisy, apathy and conceit ad nauseum.

When it was highlighted that there were issues that members would like addressed, the response was not "let's discuss the issue and see how we can be a better forum together." Suggestions were not even engaged. Instead there were cries of moderator-envy (because some so crave the moderator scepter), attempts of trying to discredit the forum just by expressing these views (any forum discredit has been self-inflicted in the eyes of members and non-members already), as well as 'suggestions' overt or not that members who feel there is a problem leave. There was not the slightest attempt of remedying the issues highlighted.

The level of outrage and defensiveness being expressed at the idea that it is being suggested that the forum is not paradise and could use some work in areas is beyond belief. Importance of forum-image is the order of the day regardless of underlying problems. The surface must look good.

How the forum looks, how many view the forum, how much good the moderators are doing. That has been highlighted. Superficiality is focused on more than once.

I am surprised that it such a shock to you and others that these views exist in light of moderator and member behavior to the above effect. Is it really so unbelievable that this behavior brings others to the conclusion of self-important, self-centered arrogant hypocrites with entitlement issues and god-complexes?

To use a word Joreth used, some here aren't strangers to solipsism.

ImaginaryIllusion, while you're suggesting that others consider that there is no problem citing agreeing opinions as your validation, perhaps you should consider that there is one and a need to re-evaluate.

~Raven~