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  #11  
Old 10-05-2013, 11:59 PM
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Everyone has downish days, that's just a part of being real and human. Hope you have an uppish day soon, and feel more up to socialization. Don't try to force it or rush it or anything. It'll come to you when the time's right.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2013, 11:32 PM
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Earlier this week Kuroi went out to a venus we used to frequent. Spotted someone attractive. A few days later Kuroi went back, saw this person again, and it dawned on Kuroi that this person was paying attention.

Kuroi told me about it. Told me it must be overt for Kuroi to have noticed. Kuroi then wanted me to go to this venue and see for myself. I was informed that Iíd probably know right away WHO, had attracted Kuroiís attention.

Friday we go, sure enough this person is there, and is smiling at Kuroi as we walk in to door. No question about it, and I agreed this person was very cute. Kuroi and I stayed for several hours. Kuroi didnít get a chance to actually talk to this person, but there was plenty of heavy eye contact going on. Kuroi was doodling on and off on a unlined index card (I buy the unlined ones for that purpose). Before we left I asked Kuroi if I could put Kuroiís name, and email on the back and leave the card with this person. Kuroi wasnít up for that Idea, but was ok with leaving the card with the drawing.

Saturday, we go out to a pub with a co-worker of Kuroiís. Kuroi tells the co-worker about the cute person at this venue, so we end up there. Before we leave Kuroi gets the nerve to actually ask for a name, and find out if they will be there the next evening. I smiled at the two of them it was cute. Afterwards Kuroi told me at least three times in less than two hours about asking for their name. Eventually I told Kuroi that the only thing I didnít do was high five right afterwards. To which I was told that would have been awesome.

Sunday Kuroi plans to go back to see this person again. Weíve talked a little about Kuroi asking them out. Iíve been supportive, making suggestions on what Kuroi might say. I also pointed out that at worst this person will say no, and that they seem nice enough to not be rude about it. Since Kuroi already knows the worse thing that could happen asking them out, it should be easier to take that step. Kuroi talks about how it will be nice to have someone to hang out with especially when Iím not available. (Kuroi goes out a lot while Iím sleeping for work.)

I get messages while Kuroi is out. I find out that this person did keep the doodle. And that Kuroi did get a ďdateĒ. I was happy for Kuroi when I saw that message. Told Kuroi to tell me about it when Kuroi got home. I knew Kuroi was excited.

Sure enough Kuroi was excited, and told me about it as soon as Kuroi got home. By the time I was leaving for work though I was feeling really sadden by this. Kuroi is all excited about meeting this new person, getting to know them, dating someone new. But we arenít over the stress from me breaking up with my ex, or the poly hell things that happened when Kuroi became the hinge, or the craziness of unrealistic expectations, and plans that my ex was trying to make with Kuroi.

Kuroi give me hugs, but the words spoken are not encouraging, they arenít appreciative of my efforts in confidence boosting, or even thoughtful of how difficult it will be on me with Kuroi starting a new relationship. Iím not ready for this. I feel like a child railing at how unfair life is. I just feel in a funk. I try talking to Kuroi from work, but thatís not helping. I get home, and Iím just hurt, and sad. Itís such a switch from the day before, or even while Kuroi was out. Kuroi is baffled, and upset because Iím upset. Eventually I tell Kuroi that I donít understand how I can be perfectly ok with Kuroi dating, even to offering suggestions and advice. Then get so upset about it. Kuroi tells me that itís ok Iím just worried. That Iím afraid it will be like it was with my ex.

Weíve been talking about it off and on. Sometimes Iím really sad, and donít want to talk about it. At other times I can talk about it, and make suggestions, or just listen to Kuroiís concerns, doubts, ect and offer the confidence boost Kuroi needs.

Iím not sure this is really a jealous thing. Maybe itís more like envy (not to different maybe). How is it so much easier for Kuroi to meet someone of interest? Why should Kuroi be dating when Iím still feeling like we need to work on us? Why was I ok till Kuroi got home? Why was I happy for Kuroi only to be so upset after I got off work the next day?

So what to do now? Kuroi is intending to meet this person tomorrow some time.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #13  
Old 10-08-2013, 06:32 AM
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It sounds like your feelings are going everywhere right now, and you're not sure how to feel. This is a subjective state of mind for you. When you're in a subjective frame of mind, you can't make reliable judgments about new people and new situations. You need to wait until your feelings level out a little, reach a state of calm, and allow you to have an objective frame of mind. Then you can analyze this new person and say, "Is she trustworthy?"

As it stands, we really don't know much about her and so it might be perfectly safe for Kuroi to date her (as long as he doesn't go too fast or let NRE overwhelm him). For the moment, I would just let things play out and see what happens. Sure, keep an eye on her for anything that might be amiss -- and keep an eye on Kuroi. Don't let him forget himself in the flush of new love. Remind him that you're still here, and you still need his love, passion, and reassurance too.

I'm sure you're a little disappointed that it's Kuroi and not you who has met a new love interest right away. Don't despair. These things are so random sometimes, there's no telling who's going to meet a new person first. Your time will come, and you'll be just as nervous and excited as Kuroi. You just need to be patient and be yourself. People will fall in love with you for who you are.
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  #14  
Old 10-08-2013, 01:20 PM
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Sadness. Today is a sick day for me. So I'm curled up on the couch with a cup of hot tea. Gonna snuggle down (by myself) and read till I fall asleep.

I have some reading, and responding to catch up on, so I'll be back later.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #15  
Old 10-09-2013, 06:49 AM
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Hope you're feeling better soon. Do keep us posted on how it all goes with Kuroi and this woman he's dating.
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Hope you're feeling better soon. Do keep us posted on how it all goes with Kuroi and this woman he's dating.
Well, I got a lot of sleep today (after work), and I'm about to go back to bed.
Unfortunately Kuroi basically got stood up. Sadness.

It's strange actually. Kuroi invited someone for a midday walk and art stuff. They agreed and gave thier phone number (Kuroi didn't get the chance to ask). So they traded phone numbers. Kuroi sends a message, and gets no response. Goes back the next evening knowing they would be there, and gets ignored mostly. When Kuroi goes to cash out this person asks what Kuroi has been drawing that evening, admits they got the text, and again agrees to meet the next day.

That afternoon no response to any message. Kuroi attempted to find out where they would prefer to meet, or what time. Last message sent was that Kuroi would be out in that area doing art, and to message if they couldn't make it.

This is the day after, and still no response.
Maybe they got cold feet, and chickened out. No matter how you look at it its mixed messages/signals. I feel bad for Kuroi, but I'm also glad that I don't have to deal with NRE stuff from Kuroi while we are still working on us.

Kuroi and I need to talk about this more, and figure out if it's really such a good idea to be meeting up looking for another partner. I'm not even certain that Kuroi is done with my ex.

Kuroi has been feeling rather sad and embarrassed I think. If I weren't so ill I could be a better distraction. As it stands we went out to do some geocaching today. Walked to one close to home, then took Momoiroi out with us and looked for a couple more. It was fun, and a good distraction> Even better it was also good bonding family time. We need more of that.

Kuroi needs to repair relationships with me and with Momoiroi. So this was a good day in that regard Unfortunately I wasn't up for more than the hour we were out. And really that was too much with how I'm feeling. Getting out in the sun when you are ill (and it's not overly cold) is healthy, but also very draining.

So I'm off to bed. Maybe tomorrow I can concentrate and share some of the posts I was working on. I'll have to reread them since I was angry when I started on one of them >.>
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2013, 04:18 AM
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Hmmm. Sounds like Kuroi's getting stood up a lot.

Would you prefer he cool it on contacting new women to date? Would you rather he worked on issues in his relationship with you (and Momoiroi) first? If so, have you told him that? If you did, what was his response?

I get that you're sick, but it's not like Kuroi has no self-control. He should be able to hold off on contacting new women if you ask him to. Polyamory isn't going anywhere. It'll still be there after you get feeling well and he gets done working on his relationship with you (and Momoiroi).

I'm hearing that he's done some kind of damage to his relationship with you? How did this happen, and what needs to be done to fix it?
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Hmmm. Sounds like Kuroi's getting stood up a lot.

Would you prefer he cool it on contacting new women to date? Would you rather he worked on issues in his relationship with you (and Momoiroi) first? If so, have you told him that? If you did, what was his response?
1. yes
2. yes
3. yes, that's harder to answer it was a long conversation. To be honest, I don't feel he understood why I was saying that at the time.

Kuroi's response was that a new partner would be difficult to find considering person limitations. Kuroi's limitations, not mine. Kuroi is generally shy, quite, and oblivious to subtly interest aimed in Kuroi's direction. So kuroi asking someone out was new. In our relationship I was the agressor, not Kuroi. So there's that and some of what Kuroi is looking for in an new partner, and Kuroi has some personal issue that also make finding someone difficult.

Issues that are not full acknowledged by Kuroi. Like Jealousy, and low self esteem. We all have issues with jealous and self esteem sometimes. But Kuroi has yet to acknowledge the things I see as jealousy, and some of the requests Kuroi makes point at self esteem troubles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
I get that you're sick, but it's not like Kuroi has no self-control. He should be able to hold off on contacting new women if you ask him to. Polyamory isn't going anywhere. It'll still be there after you get feeling well and he gets done working on his relationship with you (and Momoiroi).
Ok if things were in a better place, my first thought is that my having a cold does not mean the Kuroi can't meet up with someone.
Since things aren't where I'd like them to be between Kuroi and I, I am willing to recognize that my not being ready for Kuroi to start dating doesn't mean Kuroi is ok with waiting.

There are a couple things going on:
Kuroi basically stopped seeing my ex, and has barly spoken to my ex till recently. Kuroi loves my ex, and I think is seeing the power dynamic there as being bad. I think Kuroi is seeing the tatics my ex has used in a different light. Not the same way I see things, but at least not seeing the way my ex currently behaves as normal, or ok. And not seeing everything said by my ex as being reasonable any more.

So Kuroi has been "distracting" Kuroi with outtings, and art. Dating someone new is a major distraction. I told Kuroi when I got all sad, and upset that it was a bad idea to make the new person a rebound person. But I'm not controling what Kuroi does. I was originally supportive. The sadness was due to several things. Not least of which being my lack of comfort in Kuroi dating right now. Kuroi was not asking for, nor was I giving permission. Kuroi asked for and recieve support. Once Kuroi got what Kuroi was looking for (a date/meeting set up) it sank in what was happening. I'm not over the issues Kuroi dating my ex caused, and was very upset feeling like this was the begining of all the NRE stressors happening all over again. Not exactly realistic of me, this new person is not my ex. I know this logically, but when has logic ever worked where emotions are concerned (outside of star trek)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
I'm hearing that he's done some kind of damage to his relationship with you? How did this happen, and what needs to be done to fix it?
I'll get to that eventually. Have you read the "are you in poly hell" article? It's one I found through GalaGirl. http://www.kathylabriola.com/article...u-in-poly-hell

Reading the poly hell things in that article explains a lot of what happened. Reading FullofLoves blog, and how her relationship with Si eclipsed her marriage to Matt, also explains where I am at. (I haven't read Matts blog, or caught up in FullofLove's) I was in Matt's shoes, for a shorter period of time, and to my eyes more drastic then the general description in the poly hell article. But then I'm still dealing with the aftermath. Maybe in a year or two it won't seem that way.

I have a post that I need to rework and maybe just put here versus responding to the thread that triggered it. It will explain some of what happened. Enough without going into major details. I am trying to let go. Unfortunatly things still come up, things happen that bring the past back into the present in an ugly way.

"what needs to be done to fix it?"

We are still working that out. Kuroi and I will be talking more about that soon. as in after Kuroi gets off work later today.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2013, 02:47 PM
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When my relationship with my ex became a triad including Kuroi, Kuroi experienced NRE for the first time in 15-20 years. It was very powerful, and caused a LOT of problems between us (we are still working to correct these things). One of the things where Kuroi “dropped the ball” has to do with Momoiroi. For 4 or 5 years Kuroi walked Momoiroi to school everyday. Momoiroi expected this to continue. But it did not, this negatively impacted Kuroi’s relationship with Momoiroi. A lot of talking did not open Kuroi’s eyes to this issue. Kuroi was listen to my ex’s request for more and more time with Kuroi, and didn’t see any problems with that.

Now there is a request from me of Kuroi. I have requested that Kuroi talk to Momoiroi and set a day or a period of days in which Kuroi will take Momoiroi out for some Kuroi and kid time. I have also requested that Kuroi and I set some time to have as Family time. My request was specific. I know Kuroi doesn’t do hard and set times so I suggested that Kuroi let Momoiroi know that on Monday, or Wednesday Kuroi and Momoiroi will go out and do something together for at least 30 mins of fun time. (this was an example, and not an expectation)

Someone new may come in and call that a rule, and feel it is restrictive that Kuroi and I have time on 3-4 days a week set aside for US.

There is distrust involved, but Kuroi’s NRE blindness does not make Kuroi a bad parent (or a bad person), it means that Kuroi has to pay more attention to how Kuroi’s new relationship is (or might) negatively impact family. Having a “rule” especially one that is written out is a good reminder for Kuroi that dropping the ball a second time will have larger consequences.

Because my concerns, and my needs were brushed aside there is a “trust” issue between Kuroi and I. That more than anything has me concerned, and unhappy about Kuroi’s meet with someone the other day. Was I going to prevent this meeting? NO. I have however already started talking to Kuroi about the NRE things that were a problem before. We are planning to talk more about this when Kuroi has time.

If this new person ends up being a “game changer” so be it, but don’t string me along saying I’m imagining things, Mkay.


Here’s the thing:
My ex exerted a privileged stance that we were not expecting. I did not know how to handle it, and neither did Kuroi.
Simply put. My ex felt that Kuroi and I having 20 years together meant that my ex needed/deserved more and more time with Kuroi upto and including making it very difficult for Kuroi and I to have time just us, or just family where my ex was not present. My ex’s way of thinking was that my ex needed this extra time to catch up to the relationship Kuroi and I were seen to have. Kuroi hearing the way my ex explained this felt like there was nothing wrong with that. My ex’s demands, requests, expectations, statements, suggestions (how ever ths was expressed to Kuroi) sounded totally reasonable to NRE addled Kuroi. At first I too saw my ex's requests as reasonable. I can't argue that 20 years together is a bonus for me and Kuroi, and a negative to Kuroi and my Ex. It's something that my ex and Kuroi clear don't have. I bagan to disagree however, and thus began the beginning of the end of the triad, and the deterioration of Kuroi’s and my relationship, and Kuroi’s relationship with Momoiroi.

My request that Kuroi set 2 10-24 hour periods of time for US, and Family where my ex was NOT included was reasonable. I was told it was wrong of me to tell my ex to find something else to do for an entire day.

Tell me, are you capable of entertaining yourself for a day or two, while Kuroi and I have time together, as a couple, and time with Momoiroi as a family? How “excluded” or “disrespected” will you feel when Kuroi, or I tell you this is the new RULE? Will you be going off about one of us manipulating the other, or exerting “couple privilege”, or controlling your relationship with one of us?

I was told that this was an unreasonable request by Kuroi. It became a HUGE argument. My ex knew I was wanting space and time with out my ex. I wanted quality time with Kuroi. My ex's remark to Kuroi (when I made the 2 10-24 hour day/time request), Murasaki's "doing IT again". IT being asking for more time alone with Kuroi, and my family. This wasn't the first time I had asked. I just made a much more specific request for time, and refused to take NO for an answer.


I have a problem with the sentiment that ONLY couples exert privilege, unrealistic expectations, demands. I have a problem with the sentiment that ONLY couples manipulate, and control relationships with new people. I have a problem with that because a NEW person did this to me. Because NRE is a bitch, and caused the same kind of blindness for Kuroi that I have read about over and over on this forum. Yet I see more and more comments about the “couple” being the problem. This has NOT been my experience.

It couldn’t possibly ever be the new person, it couldn’t possibly be the NRE. It MUST be the established relationship that is the problem. The partner not involved in the new relationship isn’t poly, they are controlling, manipulative, and should be ditched.

WTH? Isn’t that what Unicorns are put through by Unicorn hunters? I thought that was not an acceptable sentiment. If it’s NOT ok for Unicorns to be kicked to the curb for not accepting the control and manipulation of a couple, (or of one partner in that couple) why then is it ok for one partner to be kicked to the curb in those same circumstance?

RESPECT is needed. Thoughtfulness, understanding NRE, being flexible, accepting someone's flaws, a willingness to learn and grow.

I disagree with considering most situations like where the new person is labeled a “cowperson”. Who wants to be a cow? In my experience the new person was inexperienced, immature, manipulative, controlling. While some of that is intentional not all of it is. And that makes situations like the one I was in not fit the “cowperson” label. I’m not completely convinced that my ex came into this with the intention of removing Kuroi from our family. I won’t be surprised if that is revealed as the truth at some point however.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2013, 08:04 PM
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Okay, I think I understand better your past, your concerns, and your point of view better. You are saying that your ex (perhaps inadvertently) created an NRE situation and a "unicorn privelage" situation. It seems that usually the original couple is the party guilty of exerting privelage, but it's certainly possible for the "unicorn" to exert the privelage and it looks like that's what you were subjected to.

Yes, the new person entering on a couple's relationship has less history with the couple than the couple has with each other. However, piling extra time/attention on the new person doesn't necessarily correct that problem. Perhaps more importantly, who says that it is a problem. So the couple has more history together. So what?

I am in an MFM V, and my two companions are legally married (since 1995), while I am married to neither of them. I won't lie to you; this was tough for me to take in the early days. They had their special jokes and intimacies with each other, while I was the "stranger" who was just awkwardly trying to fit in. But that was back in 2006. Years have gone by, and guess what? The "difference" between my history with them, and their history with each other, no longer matters. I have now accumulated enough of a history with both of them that I am satisfied, even if technically they still have more years with each other than with me.

So in other words, your ex's crusade to "level the playing field" probably could have been solved with a little patience and the passing of time. She didn't *need* to make up for lost time right away. She could have waited until the proportions and the percentages lined up more closely and didn't cause such a big issue anymore. Such was my experience (not saying I was a quick or easy learner).

So really, the biggest problem with Kuroi is that he didn't listen to your concerns about your ex in the past. He allowed himself to be swallowed up by NRE, and took his original family for granted. So, you are emotionally worried that he will do this again if he starts seeing someone new.

Does he recognize that he let NRE carry him too far with your ex? If he doesn't, that is probably your biggest obstacle now. He needs to have the courage to say, "Yes, I neglected my family for the sake of NRE and my ex." If he can admit those things, then, he can probably do better in the future.

I wouldn't be too quick to capitulate to his every want and interest just because, "Hey, we need to let each other be free." I've never heard a poly group say it was unreasonable to ask your partner to slow down for awhile. Just because that's not "perfectly comfortable" for him doesn't mean it's bad for him. If things went badly in the past and could go badly again, then you have every right to ask him to put a hiatus on his new-partner-seeking efforts.

Sure if you were telling him, "You can *never* have another poly partner again," that would be a little harsh, but if all we are talking about is a temporary slowing down and hiatus, he should be able to handle that. By the way, has *he* read the Poly Hell article? If not, he should, and you and he should discuss your feelings and opinions about it.

I think you need an agreement about privelage issues with *him* (nevermind what Polyamory.com thinks) before you and he can productively proceed with any further poly experiences. Polyamory.com certainly is obsessed about the "evil" of "couple privelage" ... and when couple privelage happens it is a problem. But now's not the time for you guys to be focused on what everyone else thinks, and on what everyone else has experienced. You need to be mutually focused on what has happened to *you* -- the two of you -- as a couple. If he's not ready to get onboard with that, then he's not ready to start dating new partners.

Such is my opinion about the situation, based on what I've read so far.

Regards,
Kevin T.
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